Rights and responsibilities (50)
Iuchi_Zien: Like Israel? Russia? Finland? France? Switzerland? Sweden? I could go on if you wish?
Exactly!Heinlein wasn't even original!
He basically described the American System before the Universal Suffrage,where only Landed Citizens were allowed to Vote!
Furthermore he plays on the popular notion,that an Individual doesn't own itself,that it must buy it's Right to Life from others!
He basically described the American System before the Universal Suffrage,where only Landed Citizens were allowed to Vote!
Furthermore he plays on the popular notion,that an Individual doesn't own itself,that it must buy it's Right to Life from others!
Conrad73: Heinlein wasn't even original!
He basically described the American System before the Universal Suffrage,where only Landed Citizens were allowed to Vote!
Furthermore he plays on the popular notion,that an Individual doesn't own itself,that it must buy it's Right to Life from others!
He basically described the American System before the Universal Suffrage,where only Landed Citizens were allowed to Vote!
Furthermore he plays on the popular notion,that an Individual doesn't own itself,that it must buy it's Right to Life from others!
So what? Are we discussing Heinlein or an ideafrom one of his books? Sounds suspiciously like you are trying to change the subject! Sounds very much to me like a red herring, after all what has Heileins originality got to do with the subject?
Conrad73: That is enough to institute anything their little Hearts desire!
Not really. The constitution of a country enshrines rights. It's what holds the US together quite well. For example, if it were meaningless and able to be changed in a heartbeat Democrats could have made the death penalty for being a Republican law when Obama took office.
That's not the case though as you well know. And, with that in mind, we can go back to this fictitious society where only two things are different - voting and being able to hold office dependent on a person serving his country.
Albertaghost: Not really. The constitution of a country enshrines rights. It's what holds the US together quite well. For example, if it were meaningless and able to be changed in a heartbeat Democrats could have made the death penalty for being a Republican law when Obama took office.
That's not the case though as you well know. And, with that in mind, we can go back to this fictitious society where only two things are different - voting and being able to hold office dependent on a person serving his country.
you forget the Committee Of the Twelve!That's not the case though as you well know. And, with that in mind, we can go back to this fictitious society where only two things are different - voting and being able to hold office dependent on a person serving his country.
And Rome definitely came to regret their way of making Citizens of People for no other reason than they served in their Legions!
Would say it might have caused,or was a cause to the Downfall of the Roman Empire!
That and the way the Republic was turned into Empire by the few who held Voting-Power and had the "Right" to hold Office!
Conrad73: It is a beginning!
It shows how relatively easy it is to get around a Constitution even with all the Safeguards in place!
I trust any Government or it's Officials about as far as I could throw a Steinway Grand,and that isn't very far!
Basically we pay them to devise ever grander Schemes to tie us up more!It shows how relatively easy it is to get around a Constitution even with all the Safeguards in place!
I trust any Government or it's Officials about as far as I could throw a Steinway Grand,and that isn't very far!
And nope,I wouldn't want to live in Heinlein's Society!
Hard enough to live in what we have today!
Conrad73: It is a beginning!
It shows how relatively easy it is to get around a Constitution even with all the Safeguards in place!
I trust any Government or it's Officials about as far as I could throw a Steinway Grand,and that isn't very far!
It shows how relatively easy it is to get around a Constitution even with all the Safeguards in place!
I trust any Government or it's Officials about as far as I could throw a Steinway Grand,and that isn't very far!
Then the society as described is no different than the one in the US at present with all the inherent dangers as well. No different at all.
Albertaghost: Then the society as described is no different than the one in the US at present with all the inherent dangers as well. No different at all.
Bingo!US is sliding toward it!
Berzelius Windrip already is occupying the White House!
Conrad73: Bingo!
US is sliding toward it!
Berzelius Windrip already is occupying the White House!
US is sliding toward it!
Berzelius Windrip already is occupying the White House!
Maybe maybe not. That however does not explain how having a policy such as Israel where all young people are required to serve their country leads to a dictatorship. In the case of the OP, it is not even military service that needs to be served but rather anything that helps the nation in turn for the right to vote and or hold office.
Albertaghost: Maybe maybe not. That however does not explain how having a policy such as Israel where all young people are required to serve their country leads to a dictatorship. In the case of the OP, it is not even military service that needs to be served but rather anything that helps the nation in turn for the right to vote and or hold office.
Basically how I see the Issue!Conrad73: Basically how I see the Issue!http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/responsibility-obligation.html
And, in the society described, there is no infringement on rights, no obligation to serve, no responsibility to shoulder - unless one wishes the further responsibility of voting or, the obligation of serving.
Hence, a deadbeat can remain a deadbeat, a person who has no desire to serve does not have to serve. They just don't have a say in what those serving are going to do.
The idea that rights, especially the right to hold positions of responsibility and power, ought to be deserved and not simply dependent on reaching a certain number of birthdays and having access to the necessary funds of money and netwroks of influence and machinery of mass-marketing, is very worthwhile.
But the idea that this suggestion should be the foundation for a society that rewards government drones and and creates a privileged elite of militarists turns my stomach.
The Declaration Of Independence is also a peculiar document that should be more closely scrutinized. The "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit" part came from philosophers who preceeded the authors of the declaration. It's interesting that among the detailed list of complaints against the king of England in the declaration is a sentence which specifically refers to the pre-colonial native inhabitants of this continent as bloodthirsty savages. The declaration of indepedence is not an example of perfect social philosophy, though it is an attempt toward that aim.
But the idea that this suggestion should be the foundation for a society that rewards government drones and and creates a privileged elite of militarists turns my stomach.
The Declaration Of Independence is also a peculiar document that should be more closely scrutinized. The "Life, Liberty, and Pursuit" part came from philosophers who preceeded the authors of the declaration. It's interesting that among the detailed list of complaints against the king of England in the declaration is a sentence which specifically refers to the pre-colonial native inhabitants of this continent as bloodthirsty savages. The declaration of indepedence is not an example of perfect social philosophy, though it is an attempt toward that aim.
The idea that rights, especially the right to hold positions of responsibility and power, ought to be deserved and not simply dependent on reaching a certain number of birthdays and having access to the necessary funds of money and netwroks of influence and machinery of mass-marketing, is very worthwhile.
But the idea that this suggestion should be the foundation for a society that rewards government drones and and creates a privileged elite of militarists turns my stomach.
It would turn mine as well however, the idea is to grant the right to vote and hold office to those who have served in a variety of roles only some of which are military. That can be, as I said in one post, peace corps type activities, charity, law enforcement, agriculture, community service and a host of other roles.
But the idea that this suggestion should be the foundation for a society that rewards government drones and and creates a privileged elite of militarists turns my stomach.
It would turn mine as well however, the idea is to grant the right to vote and hold office to those who have served in a variety of roles only some of which are military. That can be, as I said in one post, peace corps type activities, charity, law enforcement, agriculture, community service and a host of other roles.
Albertaghost: The idea that rights, especially the right to hold positions of responsibility and power, ought to be deserved and not simply dependent on reaching a certain number of birthdays and having access to the necessary funds of money and netwroks of influence and machinery of mass-marketing, is very worthwhile.
But the idea that this suggestion should be the foundation for a society that rewards government drones and and creates a privileged elite of militarists turns my stomach.
It would turn mine as well however, the idea is to grant the right to vote and hold office to those who have served in a variety of roles only some of which are military. That can be, as I said in one post, peace corps type activities, charity, law enforcement, agriculture, community service and a host of other roles.
actually holding those positions is a Privilege,not a Right!But the idea that this suggestion should be the foundation for a society that rewards government drones and and creates a privileged elite of militarists turns my stomach.
It would turn mine as well however, the idea is to grant the right to vote and hold office to those who have served in a variety of roles only some of which are military. That can be, as I said in one post, peace corps type activities, charity, law enforcement, agriculture, community service and a host of other roles.
Conrad73: actually holding those positions is a Privilege,not a Right!
Of course - my mistake. However, being able to run for those offices under the OP's fictitious world is a right that is earned by service to your country in some way.
Albertaghost: Of course - my mistake. However, being able to run for those offices under the OP's fictitious world is a right that is earned by service to your country in some way.
Just simply not a world I would like to be living in!For many reasons!
Anyway,I have to run!
Doubt any of us will have to worry one ay or another as it was only a book that has been out for a half century. If it hasn't happened by now it is unlikely to anytime soon.
Albertaghost: Doubt any of us will have to worry one ay or another as it was only a book that has been out for a half century. If it hasn't happened by now it is unlikely to anytime soon.
I am back!Had my 6-month-Checkup!
An Avalanche doesn't start big either,neither does a Hurricane!
Small wonder the Founding Fathers of the USA said that constant Vigilance was necessary!
I think the most fascinating thing is the votes. Five votes for and a bad case of apathy against. Aparantly even the most hard line objector couldn't be bothered to press a button. The problem with the status quo is that the majority of people don't give a hoot what their government does, except to whine and whinge when they don't agree. Perhaps if they had to pay, in time or money for that vote they may pay a little more attention to what they are doing rather than just wandering through the ballot like a bunch of brain dead sheep. The system as it stands is broken and it seems all anybody wants to do is complain how their views are ignored.
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Under Heinlein's System,what will prevent the Leaders from upping the Ante anytime they please,and load you with extra Duties to keep your "Rights"?
Its called voting. If you have worked for your vote you will use it. The same thing that stops 'democratic leaders' from withdrawing your rights to protest, from preventing congregations of people. You assume that such a system would create a dictatorship, why? how? the people with the votes actually have the power. They ARE the public servants and the army etc. Rights are not worth the paper they aren't written on. Wars prove that, and you can keep shouting red herring as often as you want it doesn't make you right.