Just a thought (34)
Now I will never profess to be up on Communism.
In my limited understanding of human nature, and communism the downfall could possibly have had, in part to do with this.
People dont own the tools, for example the Government (or authority) owns the tractor, or owns the donkey. The people use the tractor and the donkey, but its not theirs. Hence the tractor or donkey loose 'value'. If the Government (or authority) dont care for the tractor or donkey, then no one else will, because there is no 'value'. If the tractor breaks or the donkey dies, then the Government (or authority) needs to replace the tractor or donkey, if they dont care enough to do that (or dont have enough funds), the people will start to feel undervalued.
Undervalued workers (people) dont work as well as valued workers (people). Just a scenario .... If you are a very hard worker, and Fred next door is a very lazy worker, why should Fred have the same things as you? Why has Fred broken the tractor, and starved the donkey and now you cannot work? Why hasnt the government (or authority) fixed the tractor and replaced the donkey? I reakon that in that scenario people would have to start to get pretty unhappy.
thats just my take on it....
In my limited understanding of human nature, and communism the downfall could possibly have had, in part to do with this.
People dont own the tools, for example the Government (or authority) owns the tractor, or owns the donkey. The people use the tractor and the donkey, but its not theirs. Hence the tractor or donkey loose 'value'. If the Government (or authority) dont care for the tractor or donkey, then no one else will, because there is no 'value'. If the tractor breaks or the donkey dies, then the Government (or authority) needs to replace the tractor or donkey, if they dont care enough to do that (or dont have enough funds), the people will start to feel undervalued.
Undervalued workers (people) dont work as well as valued workers (people). Just a scenario .... If you are a very hard worker, and Fred next door is a very lazy worker, why should Fred have the same things as you? Why has Fred broken the tractor, and starved the donkey and now you cannot work? Why hasnt the government (or authority) fixed the tractor and replaced the donkey? I reakon that in that scenario people would have to start to get pretty unhappy.
thats just my take on it....
Shell225: Now I will never profess to be up on Communism.
In my limited understanding of human nature, and communism the downfall could possibly have had, in part to do with this.
People dont own the tools, for example the Government (or authority) owns the tractor, or owns the donkey. The people use the tractor and the donkey, but its not theirs. Hence the tractor or donkey loose 'value'. If the Government (or authority) dont care for the tractor or donkey, then no one else will, because there is no 'value'. If the tractor breaks or the donkey dies, then the Government (or authority) needs to replace the tractor or donkey, if they dont care enough to do that (or dont have enough funds), the people will start to feel undervalued.
Undervalued workers (people) dont work as well as valued workers (people). Just a scenario .... If you are a very hard worker, and Fred next door is a very lazy worker, why should Fred have the same things as you? Why has Fred broken the tractor, and starved the donkey and now you cannot work? Why hasnt the government (or authority) fixed the tractor and replaced the donkey? I reakon that in that scenario people would have to start to get pretty unhappy.
thats just my take on it....
In my limited understanding of human nature, and communism the downfall could possibly have had, in part to do with this.
People dont own the tools, for example the Government (or authority) owns the tractor, or owns the donkey. The people use the tractor and the donkey, but its not theirs. Hence the tractor or donkey loose 'value'. If the Government (or authority) dont care for the tractor or donkey, then no one else will, because there is no 'value'. If the tractor breaks or the donkey dies, then the Government (or authority) needs to replace the tractor or donkey, if they dont care enough to do that (or dont have enough funds), the people will start to feel undervalued.
Undervalued workers (people) dont work as well as valued workers (people). Just a scenario .... If you are a very hard worker, and Fred next door is a very lazy worker, why should Fred have the same things as you? Why has Fred broken the tractor, and starved the donkey and now you cannot work? Why hasnt the government (or authority) fixed the tractor and replaced the donkey? I reakon that in that scenario people would have to start to get pretty unhappy.
thats just my take on it....
Shell225: Now I will never profess to be up on Communism.
In my limited understanding of human nature, and communism the downfall could possibly have had, in part to do with this.
People dont own the tools, for example the Government (or authority) owns the tractor, or owns the donkey. The people use the tractor and the donkey, but its not theirs. Hence the tractor or donkey loose 'value'. If the Government (or authority) dont care for the tractor or donkey, then no one else will, because there is no 'value'. If the tractor breaks or the donkey dies, then the Government (or authority) needs to replace the tractor or donkey, if they dont care enough to do that (or dont have enough funds), the people will start to feel undervalued.
Undervalued workers (people) dont work as well as valued workers (people). Just a scenario .... If you are a very hard worker, and Fred next door is a very lazy worker, why should Fred have the same things as you? Why has Fred broken the tractor, and starved the donkey and now you cannot work? Why hasnt the government (or authority) fixed the tractor and replaced the donkey? I reakon that in that scenario people would have to start to get pretty unhappy.
thats just my take on it....
In my limited understanding of human nature, and communism the downfall could possibly have had, in part to do with this.
People dont own the tools, for example the Government (or authority) owns the tractor, or owns the donkey. The people use the tractor and the donkey, but its not theirs. Hence the tractor or donkey loose 'value'. If the Government (or authority) dont care for the tractor or donkey, then no one else will, because there is no 'value'. If the tractor breaks or the donkey dies, then the Government (or authority) needs to replace the tractor or donkey, if they dont care enough to do that (or dont have enough funds), the people will start to feel undervalued.
Undervalued workers (people) dont work as well as valued workers (people). Just a scenario .... If you are a very hard worker, and Fred next door is a very lazy worker, why should Fred have the same things as you? Why has Fred broken the tractor, and starved the donkey and now you cannot work? Why hasnt the government (or authority) fixed the tractor and replaced the donkey? I reakon that in that scenario people would have to start to get pretty unhappy.
thats just my take on it....
Did that wrong.
Ok so we are on the same wave length. And that is why i don't believe its possible to make communism work on a large scale.
But replace the word Government with the word community. OK the response would still read the same but its easier to reason against.
If the community let there tractor fall into disrepair or mistreated there donkey. The only people who suffer are the Community. The Possesions belong to the community and the Community are only as strong and competant as their weakest members.
But in accepting this as so. My Capitalist brain struggles with how this village interacts with that village for the betterment of both villages. My capitalist brain can't see how they exchange goods, tools, and ideas, for the betterment of each other. The Capitalistin me keeps looking for an edge to gain something extra. But it shouldn't be like that.
What I'm really trying to create (Figuratively) is a society where everyone is equal. And everything belongs to everyone.
Is it possible Figuratively.
I actually live in an area where a theological idea like this could do wonders.
1) First example. There are two Golf courses. They even have a common boundary. One is affluential but yes the economy as caused it to tighten belt. The other is struggling to stay a float. Is home to a different socio class of golfer. Uniting and becoming one entity is the natural solution. But its doing it without losing there individual identities and retaining a management level say in their Governance as individual identities.
2) Two cities only twenty minutes apart at their furtherest points from each other. Why do we exist having to have two of everything. Just think how much we could reduce rates if we didn't have to duplicate wages, Tools, manpower, and services. Okay this is mostly at Council level. But the savings are there and neither city would lose its individualism in the next twenty years. The practicality is immense.
But it won't happen because thats not the way its done. It hasn't been done that way before. And of course some individuals will lose jobs.
1) First example. There are two Golf courses. They even have a common boundary. One is affluential but yes the economy as caused it to tighten belt. The other is struggling to stay a float. Is home to a different socio class of golfer. Uniting and becoming one entity is the natural solution. But its doing it without losing there individual identities and retaining a management level say in their Governance as individual identities.
2) Two cities only twenty minutes apart at their furtherest points from each other. Why do we exist having to have two of everything. Just think how much we could reduce rates if we didn't have to duplicate wages, Tools, manpower, and services. Okay this is mostly at Council level. But the savings are there and neither city would lose its individualism in the next twenty years. The practicality is immense.
But it won't happen because thats not the way its done. It hasn't been done that way before. And of course some individuals will lose jobs.
dragondog4: I actually live in an area where a theological idea like this could do wonders.
1) First example. There are two Golf courses. They even have a common boundary. One is affluential but yes the economy as caused it to tighten belt. The other is struggling to stay a float. Is home to a different socio class of golfer. Uniting and becoming one entity is the natural solution. But its doing it without losing there individual identities and retaining a management level say in their Governance as individual identities.
2) Two cities only twenty minutes apart at their furtherest points from each other. Why do we exist having to have two of everything. Just think how much we could reduce rates if we didn't have to duplicate wages, Tools, manpower, and services. Okay this is mostly at Council level. But the savings are there and neither city would lose its individualism in the next twenty years. The practicality is immense.
But it won't happen because thats not the way its done. It hasn't been done that way before. And of course some individuals will lose jobs.
1) First example. There are two Golf courses. They even have a common boundary. One is affluential but yes the economy as caused it to tighten belt. The other is struggling to stay a float. Is home to a different socio class of golfer. Uniting and becoming one entity is the natural solution. But its doing it without losing there individual identities and retaining a management level say in their Governance as individual identities.
2) Two cities only twenty minutes apart at their furtherest points from each other. Why do we exist having to have two of everything. Just think how much we could reduce rates if we didn't have to duplicate wages, Tools, manpower, and services. Okay this is mostly at Council level. But the savings are there and neither city would lose its individualism in the next twenty years. The practicality is immense.
But it won't happen because thats not the way its done. It hasn't been done that way before. And of course some individuals will lose jobs.
OH nice pic DD... very manly
Yeah, I get what your saying, honestly I cant see how it works when everyone is the owner of one item, because human nature is such that everyone will ignore the item, because someone else should look after it
or someone does look after it, and they get cranky cause no one helps them, so invariably they stop doing the looking after. Because for everyone to be giving of themselves and never feel hurt or undervalued is a eutopia.By 'everyone' Im meaning - community, government, authority... thats my take anyway. Then you have the side where the 'government' or 'authority' is greedy and doesnt return funds to the community/worker. Does that make sense? I think thats an example that we can see all around us in the world today. Where the 'government', 'authority', 'community' get greedy.... well then its basically capitalism isnt it?? The I get rich, exploit the worker, and sell to the consumer, mind set? Because if Im the government, and I can own everything, and I can get my worker to work for a bowl of rice and bone once a day, then I can make loads of money, live in a nice house, have more workers, and get more money .....
I guess in the golf course scenario, if the two became one then the affluent would pay less, but the poorer would pay more ... most likely as they'd find a middle ground for the fees. But would that work?
Hey.... what about.... 'you cant keep ALL the people happy ALL the time'
I think that one fits into this.Yeah, I get what your saying, honestly I cant see how it works when everyone is the owner of one item, because human nature is such that everyone will ignore the item, because someone else should look after it or someone does look after it, and they get cranky cause no one helps them, so invariably they stop doing the looking after. Because for everyone to be giving of themselves and never feel hurt or undervalued is a eutopia.
Alas this is SO true.
Alas this is SO true.
Your saying the western world has denied itself a possible utopia because its destroyed its capability to think and care for a unit because of capitalism. (Or did I get that wrong)
Nah...thats not what I meant. I meant that if we all felt warm and fuzzy and never felt used or hurt then we'd be living in a Utopia.
But it aint ever gonna happen.
I dont know that Marriage is like capitalism, as such. But its certainly a thought provoking analogy. I reakon there's a few fellas out there who feel like exploited workers, bringing in the money, for someone else to spend.
Nah...thats not what I meant. I meant that if we all felt warm and fuzzy and never felt used or hurt then we'd be living in a Utopia.
But it aint ever gonna happen.
I dont know that Marriage is like capitalism, as such. But its certainly a thought provoking analogy. I reakon there's a few fellas out there who feel like exploited workers, bringing in the money, for someone else to spend.
dragondog4: Not to the same extent but yes I had an experience with a couple of communes in Europe. Standard of hygiene alone would have me running for the hills. I lasted two days just for the experience.
But if I may summarise yours and shells response.
Your saying the western world has denied itself a possible utopia because its destroyed its capability to think and care for a unit because of capitalism. (Or did I get that wrong)
Could this same argument be stretched to say That the marriage unit no longer works because Capitalism has made it impossible for us to think of ourselves as anything but "ME" first.
But if I may summarise yours and shells response.
Your saying the western world has denied itself a possible utopia because its destroyed its capability to think and care for a unit because of capitalism. (Or did I get that wrong)
Could this same argument be stretched to say That the marriage unit no longer works because Capitalism has made it impossible for us to think of ourselves as anything but "ME" first.
Wrong , 50% of marriages dont work now as we are in the transitional period ,women have realized They are equals ,& should be treated as such , men are still coming to terms with it ,Men too have turned a corner , no longer are they Just the "breadwinner" They are exploring allthe other things that being a male offers As men & women start to relax in their new roles & not have to fight for these positions more marriages will work out , the up heaval had to happen, As far as Utopia , well I dont believe we have denied anything, Utopias still there and everyone of us can get to it , The trick is having the balls to go for it ,wanting it all for nothing dished up on a silver platter is lazy , 5 yrs ago I had zilch!! Capitialisim gives people choices , I choose not to be poor
kizzy27: Wrong , 50% of marriages dont work now as we are in the transitional period ,women have realized They are equals ,& should be treated as such , men are still coming to terms with it ,Men too have turned a corner , no longer are they Just the "breadwinner" They are exploring allthe other things that being a male offers As men & women start to relax in their new roles & not have to fight for these positions more marriages will work out , the up heaval had to happen, As far as Utopia , well I dont believe we have denied anything, Utopias still there and everyone of us can get to it , The trick is having the balls to go for it ,wanting it all for nothing dished up on a silver platter is lazy , 5 yrs ago I had zilch!! Capitialisim gives people choices , I choose not to be poor
Yes and No Kizzy.
But I very much doubt I could explain myself properly. Without devolving into massive misunderstanding.
I agree men and woman have had to evolve a new way of thinking of themselves and how they join to make a cohesive unit. And I agree Man still has a journey in front of them before that position fits them more comfortably.
But Utopia is so far away I doubt it can be found. People have choices I agree and education and background have little to do with how successful one can be. But I don't believe anything close to Utopia can be found in the Western world.
Again I don't want to get offside. But contemplate where your going on Holiday. (God bless you, Hope you enjoy it) It isn't into a western Capitalist culture is it. OK capitalism I'm sure exist there, but it isn't as rife as it is here. There country side is more natural (Less tainted by humanity and industrialism)
There villages are still more community based and simplistic than ours.
And yes I'm commenting off the top of my head.
But I believe Utopia is more likely to be found in a community based lifestyle than an individualistic lifestyle. Utopia can't be created by one. It has to be created by all. And Capitalism denies that from happening.
Shell225: Your saying the western world has denied itself a possible utopia because its destroyed its capability to think and care for a unit because of capitalism. (Or did I get that wrong)Nah...thats not what I meant. I meant that if we all felt warm and fuzzy and never felt used or hurt then we'd be living in a Utopia.
But it aint ever gonna happen.
I dont know that Marriage is like capitalism, as such. But its certainly a thought provoking analogy. I reakon there's a few fellas out there who feel like exploited workers, bringing in the money, for someone else to spend.
But it aint ever gonna happen.
I dont know that Marriage is like capitalism, as such. But its certainly a thought provoking analogy. I reakon there's a few fellas out there who feel like exploited workers, bringing in the money, for someone else to spend.
No we were thinking along the same lines Shelly. Just my brain probably going off on another tangent and confusing things.
Its like this thread. I thought I was thinking Communism, and find I was thinking a way to find/create a utopia.
Who knew.
OK so if there is not enough lets do it for the good of those people over there going on. For example "Kizzy's Pass it Forward thread"
Then how do we educate others to think in a similar vain.
How do we Get people to realise that the reward for "one" is in seeing what others achieve from your effort. Not from cups, Money, Player of the day, Or Certificates.
Or would some sort of certificate suffice to fill that reward.
Just a thought.
Then how do we educate others to think in a similar vain.
How do we Get people to realise that the reward for "one" is in seeing what others achieve from your effort. Not from cups, Money, Player of the day, Or Certificates.
Or would some sort of certificate suffice to fill that reward.
Just a thought.
I read through this thread earlier this morning, doing so raised interesting thoughts in my mind. A most deserving thread worthy of careful thought because to my mind it relates to what really does matter.
A minefield that still at least I should attempt to contribute. Contribute what, not an easy answer.
I’ve opened two PDF files on my computer, and cut and paste hoping you’re able to accept it’s an earnest effort to bring meaningful thoughts to the subject…just thoughts to ponder if you want to. The following is part only extracts from what I consider qualified sources of information
According to the Buddhist teachings, our actions and experience in previous lives carry over to influence our experience and personality in this life.
Every person’s situation is different – their aspirations, environment, problems, outlook and expectations.
"Today is like this, tomorrow is like that; this man is like this; that woman is like that." But where is the absolutely fixed, forever-beautiful woman? Who is the absolutely forever-handsome man? They are non-existent; they are simply creations of your mind.
Also, you should not expect material objects to satisfy you and make your life perfect; that too is impossible.
How can you be satisfied by even vast amounts of material objects? How can you be satisfied by sleeping with hundreds of different people? It's impossible. Satisfaction comes from the mind. Your dissatisfied mind wanting to keep changing from one person to another, from one trip to another, can never satisfy you. This is just your mind.
I'm sure that if I told you that all you were living for was chocolate and ice cream you'd think I was crazy. No, no, no, your arrogant mind would say. But look deeper into your life’s purpose. What are you here for?
Gaining a good reputation? Collecting possessions? Trying to be beautiful? I'm not exaggerating— check for yourselves, then you'll see. Through thorough examination you can realize that if your entire life is dedicated to seeking happiness through things like chocolate and ice cream, there is no significance in your being born human. Birds and dogs have the same kind of attitude to life. If you think you're intelligent you should dedicate your life to goals higher than those of chickens!
End cut and paste.
This life is impermanent, our struggles to find happiness in the lifestyles we pursue keep leaving us wanting…
A minefield that still at least I should attempt to contribute. Contribute what, not an easy answer.
I’ve opened two PDF files on my computer, and cut and paste hoping you’re able to accept it’s an earnest effort to bring meaningful thoughts to the subject…just thoughts to ponder if you want to. The following is part only extracts from what I consider qualified sources of information
According to the Buddhist teachings, our actions and experience in previous lives carry over to influence our experience and personality in this life.
Every person’s situation is different – their aspirations, environment, problems, outlook and expectations.
"Today is like this, tomorrow is like that; this man is like this; that woman is like that." But where is the absolutely fixed, forever-beautiful woman? Who is the absolutely forever-handsome man? They are non-existent; they are simply creations of your mind.
Also, you should not expect material objects to satisfy you and make your life perfect; that too is impossible.
How can you be satisfied by even vast amounts of material objects? How can you be satisfied by sleeping with hundreds of different people? It's impossible. Satisfaction comes from the mind. Your dissatisfied mind wanting to keep changing from one person to another, from one trip to another, can never satisfy you. This is just your mind.
I'm sure that if I told you that all you were living for was chocolate and ice cream you'd think I was crazy. No, no, no, your arrogant mind would say. But look deeper into your life’s purpose. What are you here for?
Gaining a good reputation? Collecting possessions? Trying to be beautiful? I'm not exaggerating— check for yourselves, then you'll see. Through thorough examination you can realize that if your entire life is dedicated to seeking happiness through things like chocolate and ice cream, there is no significance in your being born human. Birds and dogs have the same kind of attitude to life. If you think you're intelligent you should dedicate your life to goals higher than those of chickens!
End cut and paste.
This life is impermanent, our struggles to find happiness in the lifestyles we pursue keep leaving us wanting…
robplum: I read through this thread earlier this morning, doing so raised interesting thoughts in my mind. A most deserving thread worthy of careful thought because to my mind it relates to what really does matter.
A minefield that still at least I should attempt to contribute. Contribute what, not an easy answer.
I’ve opened two PDF files on my computer, and cut and paste hoping you’re able to accept it’s an earnest effort to bring meaningful thoughts to the subject…just thoughts to ponder if you want to. The following is part only extracts from what I consider qualified sources of information
According to the Buddhist teachings, our actions and experience in previous lives carry over to influence our experience and personality in this life.
Every person’s situation is different – their aspirations, environment, problems, outlook and expectations.
"Today is like this, tomorrow is like that; this man is like this; that woman is like that." But where is the absolutely fixed, forever-beautiful woman? Who is the absolutely forever-handsome man? They are non-existent; they are simply creations of your mind.
Also, you should not expect material objects to satisfy you and make your life perfect; that too is impossible.
How can you be satisfied by even vast amounts of material objects? How can you be satisfied by sleeping with hundreds of different people? It's impossible. Satisfaction comes from the mind. Your dissatisfied mind wanting to keep changing from one person to another, from one trip to another, can never satisfy you. This is just your mind.
I'm sure that if I told you that all you were living for was chocolate and ice cream you'd think I was crazy. No, no, no, your arrogant mind would say. But look deeper into your life’s purpose. What are you here for?
Gaining a good reputation? Collecting possessions? Trying to be beautiful? I'm not exaggerating— check for yourselves, then you'll see. Through thorough examination you can realize that if your entire life is dedicated to seeking happiness through things like chocolate and ice cream, there is no significance in your being born human. Birds and dogs have the same kind of attitude to life. If you think you're intelligent you should dedicate your life to goals higher than those of chickens!
End cut and paste.
This life is impermanent, our struggles to find happiness in the lifestyles we pursue keep leaving us wanting…
A minefield that still at least I should attempt to contribute. Contribute what, not an easy answer.
I’ve opened two PDF files on my computer, and cut and paste hoping you’re able to accept it’s an earnest effort to bring meaningful thoughts to the subject…just thoughts to ponder if you want to. The following is part only extracts from what I consider qualified sources of information
According to the Buddhist teachings, our actions and experience in previous lives carry over to influence our experience and personality in this life.
Every person’s situation is different – their aspirations, environment, problems, outlook and expectations.
"Today is like this, tomorrow is like that; this man is like this; that woman is like that." But where is the absolutely fixed, forever-beautiful woman? Who is the absolutely forever-handsome man? They are non-existent; they are simply creations of your mind.
Also, you should not expect material objects to satisfy you and make your life perfect; that too is impossible.
How can you be satisfied by even vast amounts of material objects? How can you be satisfied by sleeping with hundreds of different people? It's impossible. Satisfaction comes from the mind. Your dissatisfied mind wanting to keep changing from one person to another, from one trip to another, can never satisfy you. This is just your mind.
I'm sure that if I told you that all you were living for was chocolate and ice cream you'd think I was crazy. No, no, no, your arrogant mind would say. But look deeper into your life’s purpose. What are you here for?
Gaining a good reputation? Collecting possessions? Trying to be beautiful? I'm not exaggerating— check for yourselves, then you'll see. Through thorough examination you can realize that if your entire life is dedicated to seeking happiness through things like chocolate and ice cream, there is no significance in your being born human. Birds and dogs have the same kind of attitude to life. If you think you're intelligent you should dedicate your life to goals higher than those of chickens!
End cut and paste.
This life is impermanent, our struggles to find happiness in the lifestyles we pursue keep leaving us wanting…
A fair enough Quote too Rob. Its our thinking that blinds us or enables us. And I wonder how many will read and interpret those words at face value.
If Kizzy well allow me to make some assumptions & paraphrase about her. She didn't let what she didn't have stand in her way to move forward and survive and flourish. Where myself sees what I don't have and freezes.
Education and Money aren't restraints or reasons. All that stops you is you. Its how one see's the world and its environment. That is one's prison. One can be anything they want to be. Sure it is never going to just happen. But with drive,attitude, and perserverance one can get to the top of that mountain.
And thats all that stops us finding that Nirvana. Our individual outlook on what Nirvana is to us. What is Nirvana. Is Nirvana different or the same as Utopia. What makes us Happy. What is needed to make one stop thinking as me and make them think as we.
I apologise for leaving this thread here. The input as been good. I'll endeavour to be back Monday. And hopefully I'll still be in the same frame of mind. 
Have fun and share and listen to each other. 
Have fun and share and listen to each other. 
A few thoughts:
I have always had a saying that I use:
Communism fails to take into account human nature. Capitalism takes it into account too well.
Ultimately the ideal, as is usually the case, lies somewhere between the two. Where that is, nobody knows.
The will to survive is a fundamentally biological urge - stronger in some than others, but nonetheless there.
It is this, imho that capitalism leverages and the differing strengths in drive cause differing successes. Intelligence is also important (it helps to know who you can exploit).
Capitalism isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Neither is communism. But both ultimately fail at creating equality.
As far as freedom is concerned - freedom ends where another's freedom is infringed. When this occurs, it becomes tyranny.
I have always had a saying that I use:
Communism fails to take into account human nature. Capitalism takes it into account too well.
Ultimately the ideal, as is usually the case, lies somewhere between the two. Where that is, nobody knows.
The will to survive is a fundamentally biological urge - stronger in some than others, but nonetheless there.
It is this, imho that capitalism leverages and the differing strengths in drive cause differing successes. Intelligence is also important (it helps to know who you can exploit).
Capitalism isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Neither is communism. But both ultimately fail at creating equality.
As far as freedom is concerned - freedom ends where another's freedom is infringed. When this occurs, it becomes tyranny.
cammo2010: A few thoughts:
I have always had a saying that I use:
Communism fails to take into account human nature. Capitalism takes it into account too well.
Ultimately the ideal, as is usually the case, lies somewhere between the two. Where that is, nobody knows.
The will to survive is a fundamentally biological urge - stronger in some than others, but nonetheless there.
It is this, imho that capitalism leverages and the differing strengths in drive cause differing successes. Intelligence is also important (it helps to know who you can exploit).
Capitalism isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Neither is communism. But both ultimately fail at creating equality.
As far as freedom is concerned - freedom ends where another's freedom is infringed. When this occurs, it becomes tyranny.
I have always had a saying that I use:
Communism fails to take into account human nature. Capitalism takes it into account too well.
Ultimately the ideal, as is usually the case, lies somewhere between the two. Where that is, nobody knows.
The will to survive is a fundamentally biological urge - stronger in some than others, but nonetheless there.
It is this, imho that capitalism leverages and the differing strengths in drive cause differing successes. Intelligence is also important (it helps to know who you can exploit).
Capitalism isn't in and of itself a bad thing. Neither is communism. But both ultimately fail at creating equality.
As far as freedom is concerned - freedom ends where another's freedom is infringed. When this occurs, it becomes tyranny.
Great comeback. That is excellent. "Freedom ends when another's freedom is infringed".
But that still leaves the dilemma of how to regulate.
But something else you said
Communism fails to take into account human nature. Capitalism takes it into account too well.
The communism part I agree with. But the Capitilism part I would like to offer a different angle of thinking.
For perhaps our Human Nature was not in terms of improving me singular but in improving The group. Lets step back a few centuries.
Prehistoric Man hunted in packs had to to survive against the environment and other communities. (Group Thinking)
Middle Ages the serfs worked as units to ensure there villages survived the hardships of winter and the tyranny of their overlords. Or where Tyranny didn't exist to ensure thier overlord grew in strength to help protect them. (thinking for the betterment of the group)
Today those that fail to survive in our Capitalist society group together for strength. And then through force take what they want in order to survive (Prehistoric man syndrome:Group thinking)
What I'm getting at is: Perhaps Human Nature was for the group. The well Being of the group came first. But with the advent of Feudalism (Thats correct word for Kings and Queens and such isn't it) And later the development of capitalism we have warped and deformed the spirit of human nature from thinking for the betterment of the group to the betterment of the individual.
And communism was one persons cry to return mankind back to its roots. When we used to care for our neighbours, and our neighbours neighbours. Back when Family units included great great grandparents from both sides of the family.(If they lived that long) Where as today; when finding a family that looks after its own grandparents is rare. Usually you find them confined to a home because we're too busy working trying to pay the bills and earn the latest fad.
Is this the result of Political reforms and education over the ages. Or is this the true essence of the individual.
Utopia, a philosophy we all want to grasp onto (hehe) which actually completely defies the true nature of our shared human experience. Which I believe is driven by the certainty of the laws of cause and effect, both personally and collectively we creates sufferings.
It is not possible to live on this planet in an ideally perfect state; especially given the prevailing social and political lack of ethical or moral principles that govern most people’s lives, the collective thoughts and actions in support of the war after war etc, greed and dishonesty which produces the complete opposite experience of an utopia
However yes people should have the freedom to be themselves, while however in constantly stifling debate based on historical fabrications promoted by the mainstream religious dogma that even a deaf, dumb and stupid person can easily see is utterly flawed and harmful dogma.
So sensibly prevails that requires restrictions on freedoms to do what we ourselves would otherwise like.
In other words, its my view that engaging in unwholesome activities that causes harm to others requires some form re-education program explaining ones own personable responsibility not to cause harm to others including lunatics not harshly judging the karmas of others. Which requires lots of compassion.
To watch on TV in Queensland a copper explain to a reporter how a fugitive has just shot himself, and right then as he spoke, in the back ground two shots could be heard, followed by a statement by the copper the fugitive had shot himself in the head (two shots) that isn’t practicing compassion rather it’s the act of murders.
To not challenge the prevailing historical fabrications promoting an ongoing ignorant view of our shared human experience, which forms the bases of the decision making process. And been constantly persecuted by idiots proclaiming a self-righteousness premised on a load of crap that is nothing other than ego is of course quite a challenge.
Perhaps you noticed what occurred in Pakistan the other day, a mosque was attacked apparently because the worshipers accepted there are other profits other some other self-righteous pig farmer or something...is the sort of historical fabrication I refer to. The same that is instilled in young minds here with presents and chocolate eggs to an extent that humans cannot now fathom what is ultimate truth in any examination on any subject matter.
It is not possible to live on this planet in an ideally perfect state; especially given the prevailing social and political lack of ethical or moral principles that govern most people’s lives, the collective thoughts and actions in support of the war after war etc, greed and dishonesty which produces the complete opposite experience of an utopia
However yes people should have the freedom to be themselves, while however in constantly stifling debate based on historical fabrications promoted by the mainstream religious dogma that even a deaf, dumb and stupid person can easily see is utterly flawed and harmful dogma.
So sensibly prevails that requires restrictions on freedoms to do what we ourselves would otherwise like.
In other words, its my view that engaging in unwholesome activities that causes harm to others requires some form re-education program explaining ones own personable responsibility not to cause harm to others including lunatics not harshly judging the karmas of others. Which requires lots of compassion.
To watch on TV in Queensland a copper explain to a reporter how a fugitive has just shot himself, and right then as he spoke, in the back ground two shots could be heard, followed by a statement by the copper the fugitive had shot himself in the head (two shots) that isn’t practicing compassion rather it’s the act of murders.
To not challenge the prevailing historical fabrications promoting an ongoing ignorant view of our shared human experience, which forms the bases of the decision making process. And been constantly persecuted by idiots proclaiming a self-righteousness premised on a load of crap that is nothing other than ego is of course quite a challenge.
Perhaps you noticed what occurred in Pakistan the other day, a mosque was attacked apparently because the worshipers accepted there are other profits other some other self-righteous pig farmer or something...is the sort of historical fabrication I refer to. The same that is instilled in young minds here with presents and chocolate eggs to an extent that humans cannot now fathom what is ultimate truth in any examination on any subject matter.
Who remembers Logans Run.
Wished i could remember it better. But the political theory they were living under was that realistic?. Could that be a Utopia?.
The image put across by the movie was that the many were happy to think it was.
Wished i could remember it better. But the political theory they were living under was that realistic?. Could that be a Utopia?.
The image put across by the movie was that the many were happy to think it was.
Can't disagree with anything you said Rob.
But I wish to stay away from religion. Although I wouldn't mind pointing fingers that way myself. But any discussion breaking into religious dogma and beliefs is a sure way to kill of a discussion.
So Rod instead of saying why it won't work. Which I wholly understand. Too many individuals with the power to sway the mass's for there own idealistic reality. Which just creates further difficulties for the mass's causing another individual to rise and lead the mass's. And so it spirals with individuals ruling for a smaller and smaller span of time. Leaving in the end what? CHAOS. VOID. NOTHINGNESS.
What can we do THEORETICALLY to improve things for us our environment our future.
The First thing I like to change is how our Political leaders think.
As was said in one of the Political threads. Basics like Fuel Power Roading need to be kept at a minimum. No one should make a profit off of these. But yes it has to earn enough to pay for itself.
Salaries Why should You earn 100,000 more than me.(Theoretically Speaking) I work just as hard to make my community work. Shouldn't we all earn a similar wage. And those with extra nounce get rewarded with consumer goods. like free power or a car.
Shouldn't those that don't wish to obey the rules of the community be punished by working for the community at no pay. Of course the community still clothes and feeds and shelters them and provides the tools to do the jobs.
But how do i elect someone who is going to think about us and not themselves.
Remember when Doctors and Hospitals were there for the community. Now I feel we the community are only seen as a souce of income.
How to remedy this thinking that we turn ourselves around and think of ourselves as us and not me.
But I wish to stay away from religion. Although I wouldn't mind pointing fingers that way myself. But any discussion breaking into religious dogma and beliefs is a sure way to kill of a discussion.
So Rod instead of saying why it won't work. Which I wholly understand. Too many individuals with the power to sway the mass's for there own idealistic reality. Which just creates further difficulties for the mass's causing another individual to rise and lead the mass's. And so it spirals with individuals ruling for a smaller and smaller span of time. Leaving in the end what? CHAOS. VOID. NOTHINGNESS.
What can we do THEORETICALLY to improve things for us our environment our future.
The First thing I like to change is how our Political leaders think.
As was said in one of the Political threads. Basics like Fuel Power Roading need to be kept at a minimum. No one should make a profit off of these. But yes it has to earn enough to pay for itself.
Salaries Why should You earn 100,000 more than me.(Theoretically Speaking) I work just as hard to make my community work. Shouldn't we all earn a similar wage. And those with extra nounce get rewarded with consumer goods. like free power or a car.
Shouldn't those that don't wish to obey the rules of the community be punished by working for the community at no pay. Of course the community still clothes and feeds and shelters them and provides the tools to do the jobs.
But how do i elect someone who is going to think about us and not themselves.
Remember when Doctors and Hospitals were there for the community. Now I feel we the community are only seen as a souce of income.
How to remedy this thinking that we turn ourselves around and think of ourselves as us and not me.
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But the following are popular sayings (Proverbs)
"All for one and one for all"
"For richer and for poorer, In sickness and in Health, until death us do part."
"What is yours is mine, And what is mine is yours"
"Many Hands make lite work"
Don't these sayings have serious communistic undertones. But aren't they also true.
So if they are true is not the idealism of Communism true.