Just a thought (34)
That Rob is the Point.
Mao did do all those things you said. But in the end it wasn't Mao who sold out. It was those underneath Mao.
Those who wanted to hold onto the power they had gained through Mao, that sold Mao out. Mao became a figurehead. And Mao became so out of touch with his country and its people, he had no idea how his words and ideals were being twisted by Maos advisers working under him. (Much like the Bible actually)
Power Corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We all know this. But forget it when a new figure head comes along promising us the world and freedom from oppression.
Todays government in the western world is just another dictator in just another guise.
Whilst the government idea is theoretically correct it is so corrupt it fails to work for the people. We the people continue to elect incompetants into power. Because the capitalist success's keep rising to the top and working for themselves.
This can be stopped quite easily. Unfortunately it takes revolution to succeed. But why revolt to reestablish the status quo with no ideas on how to go forward.
What we need to do is stop the wage Packets of our leaders looking so goddamn attractive. Instead of paying Our leader $500,000 a year or whatever it is. Pay them 60,000 a year no wage rise ever. Hell they get everything else for free why pay them this outrageous salary to boot. By making the job look less attractive we might start attracting the right sort of people to the job. People that go there with people skills. People that care more about others than themselves.
Yes we need to pay taxes there is no escaping that. But we don't need to pay taxes to give these individuals wage rises and pay for there evening banquets. And we don't need to pay taxes to bail out companies that we the people used to own but some dickhead sold off because it made him some money in kickbacks.
No a utopia need to be run by a committee of people not an individual. And that committee have to be made up of individuals who are prepared to put other before themselves.
Much like a good marriage where both partners atre equal. And each persons views are important and considered before making a decision. And if one person views are given reign and proven to be wrong they admit it and take responsibility.
That sort of Person has been missing from Politics for many Many years.
Our Country is not a business. It shouldn't be run like one. What do our people really really want.
I want to be able to wake in the morning do my bit to ensure I enrich my community enabling it to thrive, Have my weekends off to be with the Wife and kids, and earn enough to keep my family happy and comfortable.
Technology is good but not to the detriment of society and to promote competition. Technology is there to make life easier and should be available equally to everybody. If this can't be done then there should be a question mark over whether technology should be allowed.
Mao did do all those things you said. But in the end it wasn't Mao who sold out. It was those underneath Mao.
Those who wanted to hold onto the power they had gained through Mao, that sold Mao out. Mao became a figurehead. And Mao became so out of touch with his country and its people, he had no idea how his words and ideals were being twisted by Maos advisers working under him. (Much like the Bible actually)
Power Corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. We all know this. But forget it when a new figure head comes along promising us the world and freedom from oppression.
Todays government in the western world is just another dictator in just another guise.
Whilst the government idea is theoretically correct it is so corrupt it fails to work for the people. We the people continue to elect incompetants into power. Because the capitalist success's keep rising to the top and working for themselves.
This can be stopped quite easily. Unfortunately it takes revolution to succeed. But why revolt to reestablish the status quo with no ideas on how to go forward.
What we need to do is stop the wage Packets of our leaders looking so goddamn attractive. Instead of paying Our leader $500,000 a year or whatever it is. Pay them 60,000 a year no wage rise ever. Hell they get everything else for free why pay them this outrageous salary to boot. By making the job look less attractive we might start attracting the right sort of people to the job. People that go there with people skills. People that care more about others than themselves.
Yes we need to pay taxes there is no escaping that. But we don't need to pay taxes to give these individuals wage rises and pay for there evening banquets. And we don't need to pay taxes to bail out companies that we the people used to own but some dickhead sold off because it made him some money in kickbacks.
No a utopia need to be run by a committee of people not an individual. And that committee have to be made up of individuals who are prepared to put other before themselves.
Much like a good marriage where both partners atre equal. And each persons views are important and considered before making a decision. And if one person views are given reign and proven to be wrong they admit it and take responsibility.
That sort of Person has been missing from Politics for many Many years.
Our Country is not a business. It shouldn't be run like one. What do our people really really want.
I want to be able to wake in the morning do my bit to ensure I enrich my community enabling it to thrive, Have my weekends off to be with the Wife and kids, and earn enough to keep my family happy and comfortable.
Technology is good but not to the detriment of society and to promote competition. Technology is there to make life easier and should be available equally to everybody. If this can't be done then there should be a question mark over whether technology should be allowed.
Think about Utopia like this.
Its a rainy day and we sit down to a game. It could be any game.
Everybody sits down and joins in. (And lets assume that all are good competitive players, but none are bad losers)
They all enjoy themselves and many hours are passed in hilarity amusement at others misfortune and good fortune. But eventually the game ends as a winner is found.
But why was there such commaraderie for those few hours.
Because everybody knew their roles. The rules were layed out and everybody abided by them. Everybody accepted the rules were fair and just. If they hadn't do you think they would of played. They also accepted that the game was designed to find one winner.
A Utopia will have rules and boundaries and taxes. But they just need to be seen to be fair,just, and aplied to all across the board with absolutely zero exceptions. absolutely no one person can be seen to be worth anymore than anyone else.
What comes to mind now is the game of Monopoly. When one player sets out within the rules of the game to be a spoiler. Where they endeavour to buy one of every property to stop anyone else getting a seat of strength over anyone else. It makes the game nigh on impossible to come to an end if they are successful.
But consider please. Did that player just create a true Utopia and everybody else is upset because they are capitalist pigs. Or is that individual in the wrong because they are a born activist always trying to disrupt the system.?.
Its a rainy day and we sit down to a game. It could be any game.
Everybody sits down and joins in. (And lets assume that all are good competitive players, but none are bad losers)
They all enjoy themselves and many hours are passed in hilarity amusement at others misfortune and good fortune. But eventually the game ends as a winner is found.
But why was there such commaraderie for those few hours.
Because everybody knew their roles. The rules were layed out and everybody abided by them. Everybody accepted the rules were fair and just. If they hadn't do you think they would of played. They also accepted that the game was designed to find one winner.
A Utopia will have rules and boundaries and taxes. But they just need to be seen to be fair,just, and aplied to all across the board with absolutely zero exceptions. absolutely no one person can be seen to be worth anymore than anyone else.
What comes to mind now is the game of Monopoly. When one player sets out within the rules of the game to be a spoiler. Where they endeavour to buy one of every property to stop anyone else getting a seat of strength over anyone else. It makes the game nigh on impossible to come to an end if they are successful.
But consider please. Did that player just create a true Utopia and everybody else is upset because they are capitalist pigs. Or is that individual in the wrong because they are a born activist always trying to disrupt the system.?.
In Vietnam alone around 50 Kiwis and 547 Australians died trying to contain communism, there loss of life was a complete waist of time as bunch mongrels tossed the towel in and ran away for all the reasons and more you mentioned.
Myself i toss my hat in with the Mahayana Buddhist view, which includes a belief all manner of sentient beings that have mind and fear death, bound by the certain laws of cause and effect have since beginningless time been cycling from life to life driven by karma. That each and every one of us have different karmas and experiences (including the animals, birds fish etc) and so the sort of thought you are trying to work with mate to my mind is nonsense...sorry but i'll have to leave you to it
Myself i toss my hat in with the Mahayana Buddhist view, which includes a belief all manner of sentient beings that have mind and fear death, bound by the certain laws of cause and effect have since beginningless time been cycling from life to life driven by karma. That each and every one of us have different karmas and experiences (including the animals, birds fish etc) and so the sort of thought you are trying to work with mate to my mind is nonsense...sorry but i'll have to leave you to it
robplum: In Vietnam alone around 50 Kiwis and 547 Australians died trying to contain communism, there loss of life was a complete waist of time as bunch mongrels tossed the towel in and ran away for all the reasons and more you mentioned.
Myself i toss my hat in with the Mahayana Buddhist view, which includes a belief all manner of sentient beings that have mind and fear death, bound by the certain laws of cause and effect have since beginningless time been cycling from life to life driven by karma. That each and every one of us have different karmas and experiences (including the animals, birds fish etc) and so the sort of thought you are trying to work with mate to my mind is nonsense...sorry but i'll have to leave you to it
Myself i toss my hat in with the Mahayana Buddhist view, which includes a belief all manner of sentient beings that have mind and fear death, bound by the certain laws of cause and effect have since beginningless time been cycling from life to life driven by karma. That each and every one of us have different karmas and experiences (including the animals, birds fish etc) and so the sort of thought you are trying to work with mate to my mind is nonsense...sorry but i'll have to leave you to it
No problems Rob. Thanks for visiting.
So if I created a Utopia. The first Rule would be
1) All for one and one For all.
Meaning no one person is to be more than the group. No matter how important there role is within the group.
All individuals have rights and those at the top must look after those at the bottom and vice versa. So all must contribute in some way to the whole. That includes the animals in our Utopia. They have rights and need to be considered but they must also be contributing to the benefit of the whole. And all must be seen to contribute fairly.
And here I strike my first Quandary. And here my Personal views can get me in serious Hot Water with other Forum members.
So how do the Physically and Mentally challenged contribute to the whole. Yes they can contribute but it is also obvious that the give and take is not 50/50. And in many cases more honestly like 80/20. They will require taxes to be looked after and specialised care. Does that mean they become a sub unit and less than the whole.
Well not in a true Utopia. And yet this is what we do in today’s Western society. Why do we let this happen?.
Education is the same for everybody and free. Paid for by our Taxes. All avenues are open to everyone and anyone wishing to specialise in any branch of the technology tree, and can do so at anytime. Anyone failing to achieve will be counscilled and encouraged. But if they are found to be wasting the professionals time just to escape work elsewhere will have there fate decided by a board of peers. And offered a choice of alternatives in which to go; If that be the way the board should decide. There will be no elitist college/university because remember “No one person is more than the Group”
There is sound reason for this thinking. No one person can stand out on there own unless there others that are willing to look up at them. So without anyone to look up at them they have no standing and no power. A team needs to work aas a unit. An Individual effort can be the difference between success or failure, But all are working to the same Goal. But a team of individuals will mostly fail as they normally end up pulling in different directions weakening the team.
We don’t want to kill of individulism, but at the same time the individual must only be standing out for the good of the group and not for there own self grandiosem.
Recognition being in the form of a special night, meal, or plaque.
So how Do we ensure this Committee stays grounded and continues to ensure that the needs of the many over rides the needs of the few.
Will one suggestion is to divide the living distict up into units/areas and each year a new representative is elected by that area to take the seat on the council and govern the whole. With the safety mechanism that no family can have two immediate family members on the council in any corresponding years. And each year new candidates are to be put forward from each district for election. With the policy no one person can be renominated without a stand down of five years between nominations. Thus hopefully ensuring a good cross section get their opportunity to stand on the council and help see the group move forward to a fruitful future.
And no one person gets to monopolise his power.
As for Policies changing year to year because of constant reshuffling by decision makers. Well this theoretically shouldn’t happen if the model is a working model. As all elected council members should be making choices for the good of the group and the advancement of the group. Not for the betterment of themselves and their families.
1) All for one and one For all.
Meaning no one person is to be more than the group. No matter how important there role is within the group.
All individuals have rights and those at the top must look after those at the bottom and vice versa. So all must contribute in some way to the whole. That includes the animals in our Utopia. They have rights and need to be considered but they must also be contributing to the benefit of the whole. And all must be seen to contribute fairly.
And here I strike my first Quandary. And here my Personal views can get me in serious Hot Water with other Forum members.
So how do the Physically and Mentally challenged contribute to the whole. Yes they can contribute but it is also obvious that the give and take is not 50/50. And in many cases more honestly like 80/20. They will require taxes to be looked after and specialised care. Does that mean they become a sub unit and less than the whole.
Well not in a true Utopia. And yet this is what we do in today’s Western society. Why do we let this happen?.
Education is the same for everybody and free. Paid for by our Taxes. All avenues are open to everyone and anyone wishing to specialise in any branch of the technology tree, and can do so at anytime. Anyone failing to achieve will be counscilled and encouraged. But if they are found to be wasting the professionals time just to escape work elsewhere will have there fate decided by a board of peers. And offered a choice of alternatives in which to go; If that be the way the board should decide. There will be no elitist college/university because remember “No one person is more than the Group”
There is sound reason for this thinking. No one person can stand out on there own unless there others that are willing to look up at them. So without anyone to look up at them they have no standing and no power. A team needs to work aas a unit. An Individual effort can be the difference between success or failure, But all are working to the same Goal. But a team of individuals will mostly fail as they normally end up pulling in different directions weakening the team.
We don’t want to kill of individulism, but at the same time the individual must only be standing out for the good of the group and not for there own self grandiosem.
Recognition being in the form of a special night, meal, or plaque.
So how Do we ensure this Committee stays grounded and continues to ensure that the needs of the many over rides the needs of the few.
Will one suggestion is to divide the living distict up into units/areas and each year a new representative is elected by that area to take the seat on the council and govern the whole. With the safety mechanism that no family can have two immediate family members on the council in any corresponding years. And each year new candidates are to be put forward from each district for election. With the policy no one person can be renominated without a stand down of five years between nominations. Thus hopefully ensuring a good cross section get their opportunity to stand on the council and help see the group move forward to a fruitful future.
And no one person gets to monopolise his power.
As for Policies changing year to year because of constant reshuffling by decision makers. Well this theoretically shouldn’t happen if the model is a working model. As all elected council members should be making choices for the good of the group and the advancement of the group. Not for the betterment of themselves and their families.
Interesting idea dragon.
The benefits of any community are 1, that you can have specialised roles - doctors,police,teachers,farmers etc that can't exist on thier own a doctor without patients cant exist. A farmer can grow his own food but not his own shoes so needs to trade.
2, A comunity can care for it's weaker members when they become so. Children, wheelchair bound and mentally deficiant included. Then if you or yours become so they can be helped.
I can't see us having a utopia where one dosen't stand above another though as we all have different strengths/weaknesses. One is faster, more musical, able to plan better, enjoys growing things more, more insightful. So some will be better farmers than other farmers ad have more produce to sell. One doctor more skilled will attract more patients. If you enforce sameness so all doctors/farmer/musicians/designers recieve the same as each other and the same as window washers or lawn mowers then who would strive for excellence - who would spend years in study? Who would do the hard yards when you could get as much for taking it easy?
You must be able to reward excelence. Maybe you idea of special "treats" could work. Maybe I'm not stretching my imagination enough.
Could you have a system where you were taxted 95% on money made from things like interest, share trading, or money from anything where you didn't provide a service or add to it in a large way?
I don't know.
Some good questions though. You council. Could be kept in line by statistics - death toll rises, illness increase, crime rises, etc then they get warned to sort it or out???
The benefits of any community are 1, that you can have specialised roles - doctors,police,teachers,farmers etc that can't exist on thier own a doctor without patients cant exist. A farmer can grow his own food but not his own shoes so needs to trade.
2, A comunity can care for it's weaker members when they become so. Children, wheelchair bound and mentally deficiant included. Then if you or yours become so they can be helped.
I can't see us having a utopia where one dosen't stand above another though as we all have different strengths/weaknesses. One is faster, more musical, able to plan better, enjoys growing things more, more insightful. So some will be better farmers than other farmers ad have more produce to sell. One doctor more skilled will attract more patients. If you enforce sameness so all doctors/farmer/musicians/designers recieve the same as each other and the same as window washers or lawn mowers then who would strive for excellence - who would spend years in study? Who would do the hard yards when you could get as much for taking it easy?
You must be able to reward excelence. Maybe you idea of special "treats" could work. Maybe I'm not stretching my imagination enough.
Could you have a system where you were taxted 95% on money made from things like interest, share trading, or money from anything where you didn't provide a service or add to it in a large way?
I don't know.
Some good questions though. You council. Could be kept in line by statistics - death toll rises, illness increase, crime rises, etc then they get warned to sort it or out???
Exactly Hello. The Council needs to be kept in check. Against laziness and against lining its own pockets.
The idea thogh of not seeking excellence is though still clouded by thinking in the present (Thinking under the conditions of the world we know today)
Its like the church promising me Heaven when i die. What is heaven I ask. They say it will be beautiful and I will have no issues, worries, or regrets. I will yearn for nothing, want for nothing.
This makes me cringe. What will i do how will i fill my time. What will the point of playing golf for all eternity be if every shot will be perfect. I believe i'd get sick of it so damn quick I'd want to kill myself.
But thats also because my thinking is coloured by the world i know. I place this world in that promised world and can't imagine perfection as anything but boring.
Imperfections here in this world drive us to try harder, Improve (Or attempt to) Things and make them better. And this makes us feel good trying, Succeeding, and experiencing.
I would like to believe that in the dream i seek an individual will strive to succeed. And then they will also find the drive to share there learning with others. And those that refuse to pull there weight are bought to the attention of the Council and either remotivated (Educated) or given a new area of work skills to learn.
And then I went off on a track of thinking that was just too coloured and flawed by thinking in terms of Todays society.
The idea thogh of not seeking excellence is though still clouded by thinking in the present (Thinking under the conditions of the world we know today)
Its like the church promising me Heaven when i die. What is heaven I ask. They say it will be beautiful and I will have no issues, worries, or regrets. I will yearn for nothing, want for nothing.
This makes me cringe. What will i do how will i fill my time. What will the point of playing golf for all eternity be if every shot will be perfect. I believe i'd get sick of it so damn quick I'd want to kill myself.
But thats also because my thinking is coloured by the world i know. I place this world in that promised world and can't imagine perfection as anything but boring.
Imperfections here in this world drive us to try harder, Improve (Or attempt to) Things and make them better. And this makes us feel good trying, Succeeding, and experiencing.
I would like to believe that in the dream i seek an individual will strive to succeed. And then they will also find the drive to share there learning with others. And those that refuse to pull there weight are bought to the attention of the Council and either remotivated (Educated) or given a new area of work skills to learn.
And then I went off on a track of thinking that was just too coloured and flawed by thinking in terms of Todays society.
hi all
we are all taught that in a capitalist society, the harder or more ingenious we work, the better off we will be. i am sure most of you will agree this is not neccessarily the case.
great thread by the way
we are all taught that in a capitalist society, the harder or more ingenious we work, the better off we will be. i am sure most of you will agree this is not neccessarily the case.
great thread by the way
Thanks bodicea. Much appreciated.
But i think I have gone as far as i can with it. At the moment I am lost on how to develop it further because i can see my own flaws in my thinking.
But that is also the other side of this thread. To get one to analyse how they see things and see if they can re look at them from another angle and see it in another light.
And thus i have come up against that wall.
(Thats me trying to break it down).
But i think I have gone as far as i can with it. At the moment I am lost on how to develop it further because i can see my own flaws in my thinking.
But that is also the other side of this thread. To get one to analyse how they see things and see if they can re look at them from another angle and see it in another light.
And thus i have come up against that wall.
(Thats me trying to break it down).One strives to be the best WHY?
What is it that causes one to Strive to be the Best?
If one was in a communal situation. Wouldn't one succeeding cause the others to try harder? E.G. A Nunnery
In a communal situation. Isn't one who isn't pulling there weight shunned or shut out. So that the individual is faced with the choices of Quitting, Improving there contribution, Or Accepting there fate and live as an outsider and just go through the motions. E.G. A Sports Team.
How often do we see successful people reach out to pass on their experiences and skills on to others. It isn't that rare actually. So is it really that hard to imagine successful people flourishing in a communal atmosphere?
What is it that causes one to Strive to be the Best?
If one was in a communal situation. Wouldn't one succeeding cause the others to try harder? E.G. A Nunnery
In a communal situation. Isn't one who isn't pulling there weight shunned or shut out. So that the individual is faced with the choices of Quitting, Improving there contribution, Or Accepting there fate and live as an outsider and just go through the motions. E.G. A Sports Team.
How often do we see successful people reach out to pass on their experiences and skills on to others. It isn't that rare actually. So is it really that hard to imagine successful people flourishing in a communal atmosphere?
dragondog4: One strives to be the best WHY?
What is it that causes one to Strive to be the Best?
If one was in a communal situation. Wouldn't one succeeding cause the others to try harder? E.G. A Nunnery
In a communal situation. Isn't one who isn't pulling there weight shunned or shut out. So that the individual is faced with the choices of Quitting, Improving there contribution, Or Accepting there fate and live as an outsider and just go through the motions. E.G. A Sports Team.
How often do we see successful people reach out to pass on their experiences and skills on to others. It isn't that rare actually. So is it really that hard to imagine successful people flourishing in a communal atmosphere?
What is it that causes one to Strive to be the Best?
If one was in a communal situation. Wouldn't one succeeding cause the others to try harder? E.G. A Nunnery
In a communal situation. Isn't one who isn't pulling there weight shunned or shut out. So that the individual is faced with the choices of Quitting, Improving there contribution, Or Accepting there fate and live as an outsider and just go through the motions. E.G. A Sports Team.
How often do we see successful people reach out to pass on their experiences and skills on to others. It isn't that rare actually. So is it really that hard to imagine successful people flourishing in a communal atmosphere?
well, i could be a little idealist
Just for a curve ball
I worked in Germany around the turn of the Century (a scary statement in itself)
It was interesting to note that a number of East Germans were worse off because they were so accustomed to the government providing everything... It is difficult to budget when you have never had anything to manage...10 years from the fall of the wall and many were still struggling.
The wall was all but gone but the legacy was still kept alive in the people trying to adapt...
I was astounded as I always thought the fall of the wall was on of the greatest events of our lifetime...
Hope I made sense...Have had a good cheap Shiraz and cooked my first corned meat & veg...Talk about people who never needed to provide for themselves ;-D
I worked in Germany around the turn of the Century (a scary statement in itself)
It was interesting to note that a number of East Germans were worse off because they were so accustomed to the government providing everything... It is difficult to budget when you have never had anything to manage...10 years from the fall of the wall and many were still struggling.
The wall was all but gone but the legacy was still kept alive in the people trying to adapt...
I was astounded as I always thought the fall of the wall was on of the greatest events of our lifetime...
Hope I made sense...Have had a good cheap Shiraz and cooked my first corned meat & veg...Talk about people who never needed to provide for themselves ;-D
Great thread though I think going the utopia angle is a little pie in the sky. I am a strong believer in moving forward from what we have now. Capitalism has served us well but I see it as holding us back. Alas the big question... Where to next?
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I think your missing the point which is our lives are short, what we think today will be different tomorrow. When you die they will either bury or burn your body or it will rot in the sun, the maggots will think its lovely tasting pudding and your bones will slowly decay, the politicians wont even remember your name and will keep burbling the same crap as they have done over many centuries...
Benefiting others even just in our minds i think is far more productive than trying to be another Mao Zedong who is responsible for the death of hundreds of thousands of Chinese, the murder of millions of unborn babies, a back stabbing rat who stabbed the gallant Nationalist Chinese Army in the Back. The person directly responsible for the spread of Maoism right around the glob, which is responsible for the murder of millions.
Though they display his body for all to see he was just another mass murder, started out as a jumped up university student with no worldly experience at all, a person brought suffering upon millions of Chinese still today.
Is that the sort of thought you intend wasting your life away with?