Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge. ( Archived) (11)

Sep 19, 2010 9:31 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
gardenhackle
gardenhacklegardenhackleStratford, Connecticut USA55 Threads 9 Polls 2,067 Posts
In the USA, one of your constitutional rights is the right to a judge by a jury of your peers if you are charged with a criminal or civil offense. You can, of course, opt for a trial by judge, as well, but then you're risking your freedom and/or resources to the decision of one person instead of a panel. That sounds like a really stupid risk to take and I had accepted it as such for most of my life.

But is a judge trial really more likely to result in an erroneous and unfair verdict than being judged by a panel of your "peers"? That's a rhetorical question, of course. And the answer, I think, would be "it depends". If the case revolves around circumstantial evidence, points of law and somewhat complex logical arguments, then a jury of your peers would only be more fair if your "peers" consisted of logical and rational people such as yourself, provided you, yourself, are logical and rational.

Trusting in a system where your very life and future are dependent on the decisions of others, it's a bit scary to realize that your jury will likely include people that believe the illuminati rule the world through secret organizations and that 9/11 was an incredibly complex and brilliantly executed plot performed by those at the highest level of the US government, all despite the fact that there is absolutely NO rational reason to believe such a thing or to even suspect it. That means that these same people, who are likely to be sitting on your jury judging you for a charge brought against you by the state could just as easily draw an erroneous conclusion about your case, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

We have a very good system of justice with as many personal protections in place as we can reasonably provide and the jury system beats the hell out of a dictatorial system where the government has the right to be your judge, jury and executioner without any recourse. But still this huge flaw in the trial system results in innocent people going to prison and guilty people going free.

If I'm ever in such a situation as to be put on trial for something, I'm beginning to think the chance of a fair outcome of justice would likely be better served by having one man with a proven track record of logical analysis and legal comprehension making the decision based on the evidence and rule of law than in a jury of 12 people selected randomly from the pool of qualified voters. The same pool of registered voters that include countless conspiracy theorists who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that no man ever really walked on the moon.

Maybe a good lawyer could identify and weed out that type but I wouldn't bank on it. Just a little contemplation, food for thought and fuel for discussion.

wave
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Sep 19, 2010 9:43 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
Grandepensees
GrandepenseesGrandepenseesVerviers, Liege Belgium45 Threads 1 Polls 3,691 Posts
gardenhackle: In the USA, one of your constitutional rights is the right to a judge by a jury of your peers if you are charged with a criminal or civil offense. You can, of course, opt for a trial by judge, as well, but then you're risking your freedom and/or resources to the decision of one person instead of a panel. That sounds like a really stupid risk to take and I had accepted it as such for most of my life.

But is a judge trial really more likely to result in an erroneous and unfair verdict than being judged by a panel of your "peers"? That's a rhetorical question, of course. And the answer, I think, would be "it depends". If the case revolves around circumstantial evidence, points of law and somewhat complex logical arguments, then a jury of your peers would only be more fair if your "peers" consisted of logical and rational people such as yourself, provided you, yourself, are logical and rational.

Trusting in a system where your very life and future are dependent on the decisions of others, it's a bit scary to realize that your jury will likely include people that believe the illuminati rule the world through secret organizations and that 9/11 was an incredibly complex and brilliantly executed plot performed by those at the highest level of the US government, all despite the fact that there is absolutely NO rational reason to believe such a thing or to even suspect it. That means that these same people, who are likely to be sitting on your jury judging you for a charge brought against you by the state could just as easily draw an erroneous conclusion about your case, all evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

We have a very good system of justice with as many personal protections in place as we can reasonably provide and the jury system beats the hell out of a dictatorial system where the government has the right to be your judge, jury and executioner without any recourse. But still this huge flaw in the trial system results in innocent people going to prison and guilty people going free.

If I'm ever in such a situation as to be put on trial for something, I'm beginning to think the chance of a fair outcome of justice would likely be better served by having one man with a proven track record of logical analysis and legal comprehension making the decision based on the evidence and rule of law than in a jury of 12 people selected randomly from the pool of qualified voters. The same pool of registered voters that include countless conspiracy theorists who believe 9/11 was an inside job and that no man ever really walked on the moon.

Maybe a good lawyer could identify and weed out that type but I wouldn't bank on it. Just a little contemplation, food for thought and fuel for discussion.


"We have a very good system of justice"rolling on the floor laughing
"there is absolutely NO rational reason to believe such a thing or to even suspect it" rolling on the floor laughing
"be better served by having one man with a proven track record of logical analysis"rolling on the floor laughing
Wasn't it you who posted: "No one ever has to starve to death in the United States..." ?
rolling on the floor laughing
Okay,gardenhacklelaugh
You keep surprising me.

handshake
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Sep 19, 2010 9:46 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
HJFinAZ
HJFinAZHJFinAZSun CIty, Arizona USA870 Threads 1 Polls 17,068 Posts
Problem is, rarely are they our "peers"...doh
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Sep 19, 2010 9:48 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
invinciblemuse
invinciblemuseinvinciblemuseDresden, Saxony Germany38 Threads 2 Polls 6,026 Posts
gardenhackle: If I'm ever in such a situation as to be put on trial for something, I'm beginning to think the chance of a fair outcome of justice would likely be better served by having one man with a proven track record of logical analysis and legal comprehension making the decision based on the evidence and rule of law than in a jury of 12 people selected randomly from the pool of qualified voters.


I totally agree. Maybe the ideal situation would be a panel of three qualified judges, but that would probably be too costly.
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Sep 19, 2010 9:59 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
Grandepensees
GrandepenseesGrandepenseesVerviers, Liege Belgium45 Threads 1 Polls 3,691 Posts
invinciblemuse: I totally agree. Maybe the ideal situation would be a panel of three qualified judges, but that would probably be too costly.


Errors in Justice happen all the time. It's Men's system and it will always be flawed for as long as Humans are flawed.

A three-judge panel is not a bad idea, though.
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Sep 19, 2010 10:08 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
gardenhackle
gardenhacklegardenhackleStratford, Connecticut USA55 Threads 9 Polls 2,067 Posts
invinciblemuse: I totally agree. Maybe the ideal situation would be a panel of three qualified judges, but that would probably be too costly.


Brilliant idea! I think that would be excellent, but as you say, I can't imagine what it would cost to guarantee a trial like that. I think it would result in a significant increase in the likelihood of a just outcome, though.
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Sep 19, 2010 10:13 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
gardenhackle
gardenhacklegardenhackleStratford, Connecticut USA55 Threads 9 Polls 2,067 Posts
Grandepensees: Errors in Justice happen all the time. It's Men's system and it will always be flawed for as long as Humans are flawed.

A three-judge panel is not a bad idea, though.


I agree. It is impossible to eliminate errors in justice as long as it must be administered by human beings. The best we can do is minimize those errors and rapidly redress them when the errors are, in fact, revealed as such.

The US doesn't have a perfect system by any long, long stretch of the imagination. However, I don't know of any that are superior and I know of many that are alarmingly worse.
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Sep 19, 2010 10:15 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
anblu45
anblu45anblu45treviso, Veneto Italy31 Threads 2 Polls 731 Posts
in Italy yu can put 100 judjes .............the sentence will not tourn-up
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Sep 19, 2010 10:19 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
Grandepensees
GrandepenseesGrandepenseesVerviers, Liege Belgium45 Threads 1 Polls 3,691 Posts
gardenhackle: I agree. It is impossible to eliminate errors in justice as long as it must be administered by human beings. The best we can do is minimize those errors and rapidly redress them when the errors are, in fact, revealed as such.

The US doesn't have a perfect system by any long, long stretch of the imagination. However, I don't know of any that are superior and I know of many that are alarmingly worse.


True, whatever country one finds himself, the system of justice leaves to be desired (often, at the cost of lives ) but when cops have quotas, when judges have a chart on how many months and years they can convict someone and when the lawyers wheel and deal on someone's case, regardless of the offence, that leaves a whole lot more to be desired.
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Sep 19, 2010 10:32 AM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
demonfairy
demonfairydemonfairyNewton,hickory, North Carolina USA120 Threads 17 Polls 5,654 Posts
I have been on a lot of jury's,i found that every time we weighted all the facts that were gave to us and came to a fair conclusion with the facts we had to work with.Every person tried to give the person charged reasonable doubt...every time each case ended up being settled by the judge and lawyers before our vote was final.In 9 times out of 10 if they had waited to hear our verdict instead of not trusting us,and settling they would have been set free.......I would go for a jury trial every time if i got in trouble.wine
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Sep 19, 2010 12:15 PM CST Justice of jury trial vs. trial by judge.
gleneagle
gleneaglegleneagleNew York City, New York USA36 Threads 3 Polls 1,147 Posts
I think I would like three Judges to decide my fate if I were on trial provided the seperation of Church and State is always maintained.
I worry about Juries when I hear the opinions of people who read trashy tabloids or bigoted people. Their distortion could affect another persons freedom and perhaps justise may be denied.
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