Some of my ideas for a new form of Government ( Archived) (88)

Dec 9, 2010 5:20 PM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
cherryrae
cherryraecherryraesydney, New South Wales Australia390 Posts
Conrad73: Bar Stool Economics
(by David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia)Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

* The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
* The fifth would pay $1.
* The sixth would pay $3.
* The seventh would pay $7.
* The eighth would pay $12.
* The ninth would pay $18.
* The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that’s what they decided to do. The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20.”
Drinks for the ten now cost just $80

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay! And so…

* The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).
* The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
* The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
* The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
* The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
* The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

“I only got a dollar out of the $20,” declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man, “but he got $10!”

“Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I!”

“That’s true!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!”

“Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison. “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!” The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics, University of Georgia

the problem being, the high end are paying less taxes than the 5 middle guys.

so really, on that scale you have put as an example, the high end are somewhere between the first four, and the next five menwave
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Dec 9, 2010 5:44 PM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
FreddyFudpucker
FreddyFudpuckerFreddyFudpuckerObamaville, Indiana USA10,179 Posts
gardenhackle: What if they're unemployable due to lack of education, lack of work ethic, sheer laziness, etc? If it's suggested those people be allowed to starve, you'll be a jack-booted fascist thug and may even get called a republican.


It's much better to keep them on the democrat plantation. Food stamps and unemployment. The life of Riley~
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Dec 9, 2010 7:39 PM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
gardenhackle: What if they're unemployable due to lack of education, lack of work ethic, sheer laziness, etc? If it's suggested those people be allowed to starve, you'll be a jack-booted fascist thug and may even get called a republican.
First of all, I don't have all the answers. Instead of trying to find flaws in my ideas why don't you come up with solutions to those areas that you think needs improvement? You're a lot like me. An old boss of mine once told me "instead of coming up with a bunch of reasons why something WONT work, why don't you concentrate on ways that it WILL work?"
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Dec 9, 2010 10:31 PM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
Albertaghost
AlbertaghostAlbertaghostCultural Wasteland, Alberta Canada76 Threads 5 Polls 5,914 Posts
ooby_dooby: First of all, I don't have all the answers. Instead of trying to find flaws in my ideas why don't you come up with solutions to those areas that you think needs improvement? You're a lot like me. An old boss of mine once told me "instead of coming up with a bunch of reasons why something WONT work, why don't you concentrate on ways that it WILL work?"


Why not simply concentrate on making the existing structure work better then? The problems stated in implementing communism are not simply harassing snipes but real problems that show why it would not work on a countrywide scale.

That said, here in Alberta we have many Germanic Hutterite Colonies which operate on communist methods with each person designated a job and position. They do very well and, live a very healthy agriculture based lifestyle making huge amounts of money colectively. Problem is, the colonies max out at one hundred people at which point, it is divided which might be indicative of something that they know and Stalin, Lenin, Castro and so many far left people don't seem to realize which is - a society can only be successful when people who make up that society have an easily identifiable personal stake in it. Picking potatoes in Idaho because I love to help the country and, if I don't pick potatoes and instead, drink beer and chase women at the bar and, will pay the same just sort of makes me not really interested in picking potatoes.

So, not wishing to simply being a nay sayer, my point is that nobody really has a personal stake in a nationwide communist venture. If you could ever get past the obvious hurdles of overthrowing the present form of government.
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Dec 10, 2010 1:37 AM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
ooby_dooby: Sharp observation. The Soviet Union tried to control everything right down to who did what and how they did it. This was doomed to fail because they took away the decision making power from leaders of industry, and ran everything by bureaucrats in the Kremlin leaving the experts with nothing to do but watch the appointees from Moscow run everything into the ground.
Who knows better how to bake a loaf of bread, a baker or a politician? Who knows better how to manufacture a car, General Motors or Joe Biden?
My idea is to keep corporations intact except the profits go to the Gov and the Gov administars payroll. People can still strive to move up the ladder and even switch co's freely. Corp CEO's etc wont be making 100's of millions of dollars for doing a crappy job though. An example is Bob Nardelli resigning from Home Depot after doing a really lousy job with $210 million golden parachute. In my system he would have been given an orange apron and be put in the lumber dept selling 2X4's. Or Bank of America execs getting multi million dollar bonuses for nearly going bankrupt.
It would be more of a partnership between corporations & the Gov.
Read Galt's Speech!professor
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Dec 10, 2010 2:30 AM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
Conrad73: Read Galt's Speech!








Government is the SERVANT, NOT a PARTNER!
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Dec 10, 2010 10:08 AM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
gardenhackle
gardenhacklegardenhackleStratford, Connecticut USA55 Threads 9 Polls 2,067 Posts
ooby_dooby: First of all, I don't have all the answers. Instead of trying to find flaws in my ideas why don't you come up with solutions to those areas that you think needs improvement? You're a lot like me. An old boss of mine once told me "instead of coming up with a bunch of reasons why something WONT work, why don't you concentrate on ways that it WILL work?"


My solution would be that everyone working for the government has no effective "workaround". One of the things that really sucks about this system we have here in the States is that you can think a very, very long time, digging very deep and at every turn, you realize that there's a lot of genius in the madness that is our government. Lots of ideas sound really good until the unexpected consequences start showing in in an avalanche.

As far as "what about those who just don't want to work"... well, that wasn't really a flaw in your system. I like the idea of only giving aid to those who CAN'T work due to injuries, old age or severe disabilities. I was just wondering if in such a socially responsible form of society, would we eventuallyc cave in and support the leeches, too, or stand firm on the "no work/no eat" rule. I think it's a good rule, but..... you can't underestimate the "bleeding heart" factor. It's been troublesome for this country for a long time and will continue to be so regardless of system in place.
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Dec 10, 2010 10:11 AM CST Some of my ideas for a new form of Government
The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man’s rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man’s self-defense, and, as such, may resort to force only against those who start the use of force. The only proper functions of a government are: the police, to protect you from criminals; the army, to protect you from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law. But a government that initiates the employment of force against men who had forced no one, the employment of armed compulsion against disarmed victims, is a nightmare infernal machine designed to annihilate morality: such a government reverses its only moral purpose and switches from the role of protector to the role of man’s deadliest enemy, from the role of policeman to the role of a criminal vested with the right to the wielding of violence against victims deprived of the right of self-defense. Such a government substitutes for morality the following rule of social conduct: you may do whatever you please to your neighbor, provided your gang is bigger than his.

For the New Intellectual Galt’s Speech

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