The Independence of modern women .... (72)
smoky: I had a conversation with a guy over this subject ....and am interested in all your various views on this subject?
First off:
He was complaining about meeting women who all seemed to want to be "looked after", that they were not independent and financially secure in their own right.
Then ............... he veered off into complaining about women wanting to be independent and not wanting to stay at home anymore - looking after the children, running the home, etc etc.
He also stated that if Mothers were restricted from working in the business world - that they HAD to stay home - this would release more jobs for men. Children would be better cared for by having their mothers at home. And generally the world would be a better place.
My argument was this:
WHY are there so many women looking for a man to care for them? Is the reason they are not financially secure because they grew up assuming a man would one day take care of them?.. So they stayed home and cared for the children/home ... and then got offloaded when they got older, and now they have no personal insurances or retirement policies?
So ... of course... these women now need taking care of?
To complain about the independence of the modern woman, the loss of jobs, the children in Day Care Centres, etc etc ...... not something that Man has brought about himself?
When did men stop caring for their women? Why do men not care for their women anymore?
What is it about women that men would realy like? Do they even kinow themselves what it is they want out of relationships?
And in the meantime, women will have to continue with being independent and not depending on men anymore.
Does he really know what he wants?Wonder about the size of the Guy's Selfesteem.First off:
He was complaining about meeting women who all seemed to want to be "looked after", that they were not independent and financially secure in their own right.
Then ............... he veered off into complaining about women wanting to be independent and not wanting to stay at home anymore - looking after the children, running the home, etc etc.
He also stated that if Mothers were restricted from working in the business world - that they HAD to stay home - this would release more jobs for men. Children would be better cared for by having their mothers at home. And generally the world would be a better place.
My argument was this:
WHY are there so many women looking for a man to care for them? Is the reason they are not financially secure because they grew up assuming a man would one day take care of them?.. So they stayed home and cared for the children/home ... and then got offloaded when they got older, and now they have no personal insurances or retirement policies?
So ... of course... these women now need taking care of?
To complain about the independence of the modern woman, the loss of jobs, the children in Day Care Centres, etc etc ...... not something that Man has brought about himself?
When did men stop caring for their women? Why do men not care for their women anymore?
What is it about women that men would realy like? Do they even kinow themselves what it is they want out of relationships?
And in the meantime, women will have to continue with being independent and not depending on men anymore.
Sounds like a Politician,blowing Hot and Cold at the same time!
Great topic Smoky. Indeed.
I am happy to admit that I would love a man to take care of me.
I see nothing wrong in that at all. That is not to say that I want to give up work and take care of the home all day and he bring all the money in.
Working does not make me independent, it makes me self sufficient and able to meet my financial commitments. I would be lucky to meet a man who would happily take those off my shoulders.
But certainly, I would want a man to take care of me, I want a person I can depend upon, to listen when I get home late at night, to offer me some arms, a warm towel when I climb out of the shower.
See, I see that men all the time, speak of women who are self sufficient and that we do not want a person to help us out.
They and we are lost in the financial aspect of it all. When what we are forgettin is the fundamental basics of people.
That we all want to be loved. Show me a woman, however successful she is, however much money she earns, that does not want a man to be there, take care of her, love her, make some decisions and fix the bathroom shelf and stand above her so she can bury herself in his chest and feel his strength when she is weary.
I will then show you a man that never plays with himself.
I see it all the time, a women who states that she does not 'need' a man. SHe wants one. Because, now they are conditioned with women being more financially independent and more assertive, but they become afraid of reaching out to that.
Women have toughened up, they have jobs, they have money, they have their own homes, and there os nothhing worong with that.
But they want and need to be loved and are afraid to admit it. Hence why so many men and women are single.
Togetherness is lost and that is what I want, not to live in comeptition, a person thst will lay his chin on mine at the end of each day and pick me up and take me to bed.
And I see nowt wrong with that at all.
I am happy to admit that I would love a man to take care of me.
I see nothing wrong in that at all. That is not to say that I want to give up work and take care of the home all day and he bring all the money in.
Working does not make me independent, it makes me self sufficient and able to meet my financial commitments. I would be lucky to meet a man who would happily take those off my shoulders.
But certainly, I would want a man to take care of me, I want a person I can depend upon, to listen when I get home late at night, to offer me some arms, a warm towel when I climb out of the shower.
See, I see that men all the time, speak of women who are self sufficient and that we do not want a person to help us out.
They and we are lost in the financial aspect of it all. When what we are forgettin is the fundamental basics of people.
That we all want to be loved. Show me a woman, however successful she is, however much money she earns, that does not want a man to be there, take care of her, love her, make some decisions and fix the bathroom shelf and stand above her so she can bury herself in his chest and feel his strength when she is weary.
I will then show you a man that never plays with himself.
I see it all the time, a women who states that she does not 'need' a man. SHe wants one. Because, now they are conditioned with women being more financially independent and more assertive, but they become afraid of reaching out to that.
Women have toughened up, they have jobs, they have money, they have their own homes, and there os nothhing worong with that.
But they want and need to be loved and are afraid to admit it. Hence why so many men and women are single.
Togetherness is lost and that is what I want, not to live in comeptition, a person thst will lay his chin on mine at the end of each day and pick me up and take me to bed.
And I see nowt wrong with that at all.
Conrad73: Does he really know what he wants?Wonder about the size of the Guy's Selfesteem.
Sounds like a Politician,blowing Hot and Cold at the same time!
Nein, you missed the point of what I`m asking here, Conrad.Sounds like a Politician,blowing Hot and Cold at the same time!
Or is what men want - the same spouting of politicians?
This is not a single mans views, I have heard this lament continuously from men. Young men seem to take it for granted, but older guys waver between these two Ideals of theirs....
smoky: Nein, you missed the point of what I`m asking here, Conrad.
Or is what men want - the same spouting of politicians?
This is not a single mans views, I have heard this lament continuously from men. Young men seem to take it for granted, but older guys waver between these two Ideals of theirs....
Politicians usually echo the Guff they hear the most.Or is what men want - the same spouting of politicians?
This is not a single mans views, I have heard this lament continuously from men. Young men seem to take it for granted, but older guys waver between these two Ideals of theirs....
But it has to do with how secure a Man is with himself.
JMO
This is a fab subject for a thread and you should post it in the Int Forum to Smoky as I would love to see the American answers...
I worked because I had to so....
Since I had to work...like all of us I trained and decided to do something that inspired me and I was passionate about...
I would have loved to have been the stay at home and although I had excellent childcare...I feel I missed a great deal and could have done better with my kids as a stay at home mum...
I can tell children in a class that are in all day childcare to those who are at home with Mommy....
I was expected to be a career woman, housewife, mother, wife and book keeper by my ex and some days I would fall into bed exhausted and think I can not do this anymore....
I would have loved to have a man take care of me.....
If there is ever a next time I want one that takes care of me and puts me first....
I worked because I had to so....
Since I had to work...like all of us I trained and decided to do something that inspired me and I was passionate about...
I would have loved to have been the stay at home and although I had excellent childcare...I feel I missed a great deal and could have done better with my kids as a stay at home mum...
I can tell children in a class that are in all day childcare to those who are at home with Mommy....
I was expected to be a career woman, housewife, mother, wife and book keeper by my ex and some days I would fall into bed exhausted and think I can not do this anymore....
I would have loved to have a man take care of me.....
If there is ever a next time I want one that takes care of me and puts me first....
Sommerauer71: Show me a woman, however successful she is, however much money she earns, that does not want a man to be there, take care of her, love her, make some decisions and fix the bathroom shelf and stand above her so she can bury herself in his chest and feel his strength when she is weary.
I will then show you a man that never plays with himself.
I will then show you a man that never plays with himself.
And show us a man that would not want to slide into the role of the family father figure, the one that is the first to lift a mental sword to protect his family, that grow grey hairs for want of providing financial security and enough to let the kids get on with their choice of education and goals.
We want to be strong, secure, financially independent and all this.
We can be, and often we are, it is not a new invention, only the bit regarding finance has changed, since we now allow for women to search their own career and for men to stay home with the children.
But the want of having a function, being important – one of two “unique” in a relation, it did not change. No matter how much I get disturbed by those claiming men are more and women lesser, I still want to be the Man in my house and her to be the Woman. No role is less than the other, we still share work that needs to be done, but basically she is a soft, caring woman and I am a tough grunting man. She comforts me when I hurt my thumb building that new wall for her. She insists she loves to make me coffee when I am working at the computer and I love giving her massage.
Simple things but easily translated to what roles we would have had was this 50 years ago.
But I do not complain over independent women, and then require them to be just that the next second.
Never really thought about the Whole Thing!
Probably has something to do with liking that Fellow in the Looking Glass,and being secure enough!
Sommerauer71: Great topic Smoky. Indeed.
I am happy to admit that I would love a man to take care of me.
I see nothing wrong in that at all. That is not to say that I want to give up work and take care of the home all day and he bring all the money in.
Working does not make me independent, it makes me self sufficient and able to meet my financial commitments. I would be lucky to meet a man who would happily take those off my shoulders.
But certainly, I would want a man to take care of me, I want a person I can depend upon, to listen when I get home late at night, to offer me some arms, a warm towel when I climb out of the shower.
See, I see that men all the time, speak of women who are self sufficient and that we do not want a person to help us out.
They and we are lost in the financial aspect of it all. When what we are forgettin is the fundamental basics of people.
That we all want to be loved. Show me a woman, however successful she is, however much money she earns, that does not want a man to be there, take care of her, love her, make some decisions and fix the bathroom shelf and stand above her so she can bury herself in his chest and feel his strength when she is weary.
I will then show you a man that never plays with himself.
I see it all the time, a women who states that she does not 'need' a man. SHe wants one. Because, now they are conditioned with women being more financially independent and more assertive, but they become afraid of reaching out to that.
Women have toughened up, they have jobs, they have money, they have their own homes, and there os nothhing worong with that.
But they want and need to be loved and are afraid to admit it. Hence why so many men and women are single.
Togetherness is lost and that is what I want, not to live in comeptition, a person thst will lay his chin on mine at the end of each day and pick me up and take me to bed.
And I see nowt wrong with that at all.
Sommer-girl, you express yourself so well, I am unable to make any further comments. You sound like a person with a level-head who knows what she needs/wants/has. I am happy to admit that I would love a man to take care of me.
I see nothing wrong in that at all. That is not to say that I want to give up work and take care of the home all day and he bring all the money in.
Working does not make me independent, it makes me self sufficient and able to meet my financial commitments. I would be lucky to meet a man who would happily take those off my shoulders.
But certainly, I would want a man to take care of me, I want a person I can depend upon, to listen when I get home late at night, to offer me some arms, a warm towel when I climb out of the shower.
See, I see that men all the time, speak of women who are self sufficient and that we do not want a person to help us out.
They and we are lost in the financial aspect of it all. When what we are forgettin is the fundamental basics of people.
That we all want to be loved. Show me a woman, however successful she is, however much money she earns, that does not want a man to be there, take care of her, love her, make some decisions and fix the bathroom shelf and stand above her so she can bury herself in his chest and feel his strength when she is weary.
I will then show you a man that never plays with himself.
I see it all the time, a women who states that she does not 'need' a man. SHe wants one. Because, now they are conditioned with women being more financially independent and more assertive, but they become afraid of reaching out to that.
Women have toughened up, they have jobs, they have money, they have their own homes, and there os nothhing worong with that.
But they want and need to be loved and are afraid to admit it. Hence why so many men and women are single.
Togetherness is lost and that is what I want, not to live in comeptition, a person thst will lay his chin on mine at the end of each day and pick me up and take me to bed.
And I see nowt wrong with that at all.
Yes, women have toughened up, but there are also those who have not, and now because they battle to support themselves, barely, cannot shack-up and share costs ...... because the Modern Man has a somewhat higher cost of living than she has on her own?
Conrad73: Does he really know what he wants?Wonder about the size of the Guy's Selfesteem.
Sounds like a Politician,blowing Hot and Cold at the same time!
Dear Conrad, I repeat your quote, because you appear to have the same confusion with this issue?Sounds like a Politician,blowing Hot and Cold at the same time!
Can you answer this question clearly? ...
Scene 1.... You meet a woman, she is a career independent woman, and you both fall in love and shack up (for want of a better word). She has her own apartment, which she rents out. She dashes out to work every day, comes home exhausted, with a carry-pack of McDonalds for supper, or Instant Noodles. She has outside business commitments or extra work she brings home. She falls into bed exhausted. But... she is independent, she does not require any upkeep from you. She knows that she will be retiring one day and can go travelling and indulging herself, and maybe she would have gotten tired of you and she seeks another man.
Scene 2..... You meet a woman, she has a humble job, lives in a rented room, has no retirement policies or insurances, just manages to feed and clothe herself. You two fall in love, you shack up. She stays at home, shops cleverly and frugally for quality food, and cooks hearty healthy meals for you both, she mends your clothes, she makes her own clothes, she does all the housework and laundry, and she`s never too tired for your company. She dreads that you ever get tired of her, because she`ll be out on the street again.
NOW .....TWO CHOICES ..... Which is the woman, in your opinion, that makes a better mate/lover/companion?
Choice 1. The "clever" one?
Choice 2. The "stupid" one?
Ah Ha! Declare yourselves, men out there, this post is not directed specifically at Conrad!
Tamarin: This is a fab subject for a thread and you should post it in the Int Forum to Smoky as I would love to see the American answers...
I worked because I had to so....
Since I had to work...like all of us I trained and decided to do something that inspired me and I was passionate about...
I would have loved to have been the stay at home and although I had excellent childcare...I feel I missed a great deal and could have done better with my kids as a stay at home mum...
I can tell children in a class that are in all day childcare to those who are at home with Mommy....
I was expected to be a career woman, housewife, mother, wife and book keeper by my ex and some days I would fall into bed exhausted and think I can not do this anymore....
I would have loved to have a man take care of me.....
If there is ever a next time I want one that takes care of me and puts me first....
I worked because I had to so....
Since I had to work...like all of us I trained and decided to do something that inspired me and I was passionate about...
I would have loved to have been the stay at home and although I had excellent childcare...I feel I missed a great deal and could have done better with my kids as a stay at home mum...
I can tell children in a class that are in all day childcare to those who are at home with Mommy....
I was expected to be a career woman, housewife, mother, wife and book keeper by my ex and some days I would fall into bed exhausted and think I can not do this anymore....
I would have loved to have a man take care of me.....
If there is ever a next time I want one that takes care of me and puts me first....
TAMARIN. Why did you feel obliged to go out to work?
Why were you "expected" to go out to work?
You worked, and you also worked at all the chores when you got home at night? So, essentially you had two jobs? Did your ex also have two jobs? Or did he come home to relax after his hard day?
I`m asking all these questions cause I`m trying to cut through all the crap that I keep hearing and reading about, so if my questions are too personal, dont get upset, just say so, or ignore them, okay?
Now ...... Personal Question .... Did you, in your career, provide for yourself financially to be able live independently?
smoky: Choice 1. The "clever" one?
Choice 2. The "stupid" one?
Ah Ha! Declare yourselves, men out there, this post is not directed specifically at Conrad!
Choice 2. The "stupid" one?
Ah Ha! Declare yourselves, men out there, this post is not directed specifically at Conrad!
I would not call number two the Stupid one, but I married number one, and not a single second do I regret that.
She knows very well how much energy a project can draw and have respect for those hours I sit silent just reading boring papers, as she have just the same.
We do shopping and cooking together or we would never get to meet before bedtime. I do the sewing and ironing and she do the laundry as long as I get to sort the items into the right piles of colour and temperature.
mike69spain: And show us a man that would not want to slide into the role of the family father figure, the one that is the first to lift a mental sword to protect his family, that grow grey hairs for want of providing financial security and enough to let the kids get on with their choice of education and goals.
We want to be strong, secure, financially independent and all this.
We can be, and often we are, it is not a new invention, only the bit regarding finance has changed, since we now allow for women to search their own career and for men to stay home with the children.
But the want of having a function, being important – one of two “unique” in a relation, it did not change. No matter how much I get disturbed by those claiming men are more and women lesser, I still want to be the Man in my house and her to be the Woman. No role is less than the other, we still share work that needs to be done, but basically she is a soft, caring woman and I am a tough grunting man. She comforts me when I hurt my thumb building that new wall for her. She insists she loves to make me coffee when I am working at the computer and I love giving her massage.
Simple things but easily translated to what roles we would have had was this 50 years ago.
But I do not complain over independent women, and then require them to be just that the next second.
We want to be strong, secure, financially independent and all this.
We can be, and often we are, it is not a new invention, only the bit regarding finance has changed, since we now allow for women to search their own career and for men to stay home with the children.
But the want of having a function, being important – one of two “unique” in a relation, it did not change. No matter how much I get disturbed by those claiming men are more and women lesser, I still want to be the Man in my house and her to be the Woman. No role is less than the other, we still share work that needs to be done, but basically she is a soft, caring woman and I am a tough grunting man. She comforts me when I hurt my thumb building that new wall for her. She insists she loves to make me coffee when I am working at the computer and I love giving her massage.
Simple things but easily translated to what roles we would have had was this 50 years ago.
But I do not complain over independent women, and then require them to be just that the next second.
As usual, MIKE, you give a fairly logical reply.As I see it, things seem to have changed since everyone demands a "better quality" of living? Fifty years ago couples got together (married) and began with nothing. No washing machine, no vacuum cleaner, no freezers, and sometimes no fridge or stove - just a hotplate to cook on, and some packing cases for furniture. Then the woman used her ingenuity to build up the home on what the man brought home in his pay-packet. They lived on what they had.
Seems, the demands of having what everyone else has, could be the reason couples "dont come out on one salary anymore" these days?
Hey, and also, the women from those days ended up with no finances of their own (after The Divorce) and so their daughters learned to be Independent? And now some men feel emasculated by this turn of events?
smoky: Hey, and also, the women from those days ended up with no finances of their own (after The Divorce) and so their daughters learned to be Independent? And now some men feel emasculated by this turn of events?
What disturbs me is the endless hours clients spend on protecting their greed by finding ways of hiding assets from their spouse or future spouse.
It is a sad development, when marriage has become not your security for the future but simply a status thing that involves a calculated financial risk.
Yes, the overhead of living today is way direr to the banc account and being two makes it easier to shop all those fun items as long as both work full time.
But even so, in Spain as well as Romania, the living in relation to income is badly arranged and both will need to work to actually afford moving out from their parents.
smoky: TAMARIN. Why did you feel obliged to go out to work?
Why were you "expected" to go out to work?
You worked, and you also worked at all the chores when you got home at night? So, essentially you had two jobs? Did your ex also have two jobs? Or did he come home to relax after his hard day?
I`m asking all these questions cause I`m trying to cut through all the crap that I keep hearing and reading about, so if my questions are too personal, dont get upset, just say so, or ignore them, okay?
Now ...... Personal Question .... Did you, in your career, provide for yourself financially to be able live independently?
Why were you "expected" to go out to work?
You worked, and you also worked at all the chores when you got home at night? So, essentially you had two jobs? Did your ex also have two jobs? Or did he come home to relax after his hard day?
I`m asking all these questions cause I`m trying to cut through all the crap that I keep hearing and reading about, so if my questions are too personal, dont get upset, just say so, or ignore them, okay?
Now ...... Personal Question .... Did you, in your career, provide for yourself financially to be able live independently?
Yes I was expected to go out to work to give a good lifestyle with the extra cash...
I did all the household chores... yes I had severally unpaid jobs
No my ex only had his one fulltime job and I did his books unpaid..
He came from a days work and expected to sit down to a home made meal...if it was not what he wanted/desired he threw it in the trash can..
Yes I provided finicailly for myself and can live independently ...I have always supported myself and never asked my ex for money....
Tamarin: Yes I was expected to go out to work to give a good lifestyle with the extra cash...
I did all the household chores... yes I had severally unpaid jobs
No my ex only had his one fulltime job and I did his books unpaid..
He came from a days work and expected to sit down to a home made meal...if it was not what he wanted/desired he threw it in the trash can..
Yes I provided finicailly for myself and can live independently ...I have always supported myself and never asked my ex for money....
I did all the household chores... yes I had severally unpaid jobs
No my ex only had his one fulltime job and I did his books unpaid..
He came from a days work and expected to sit down to a home made meal...if it was not what he wanted/desired he threw it in the trash can..
Yes I provided finicailly for myself and can live independently ...I have always supported myself and never asked my ex for money....
Now that is absolutely CLASSIC behaviour! I have heard of this before too!
Good for you Tamarin - you are a girl with a clear mind!Buuuuttt ..... (I`m just playing Devils Advocate here).... If you had not provided for yourself, do you think you would have still got divorced? Is seeing a clear secure future for yourself a way that makes it easier to seperate the marriage partnership?
.... If you were not financially secure, do you think you could have persevered in the marriage? ... sort of hoping things would improve?
I do not think twice when I hear a woman choose to stay home and take full charge of the house while the man is working full-time.
If I hear the opposite I react to it somehow - I do not find it wrong, still I feel it is strange.
Funny how we are raised, really
If I hear the opposite I react to it somehow - I do not find it wrong, still I feel it is strange.
Funny how we are raised, really
mike69spain: What disturbs me is the endless hours clients spend on protecting their greed by finding ways of hiding assets from their spouse or future spouse.
It is a sad development, when marriage has become not your security for the future but simply a status thing that involves a calculated financial risk.
Yes, the overhead of living today is way direr to the banc account and being two makes it easier to shop all those fun items as long as both work full time.But even so, in Spain as well as Romania, the living in relation to income is badly arranged and both will need to work to actually afford moving out from their parents.
It is a sad development, when marriage has become not your security for the future but simply a status thing that involves a calculated financial risk.
Yes, the overhead of living today is way direr to the banc account and being two makes it easier to shop all those fun items as long as both work full time.But even so, in Spain as well as Romania, the living in relation to income is badly arranged and both will need to work to actually afford moving out from their parents.
Okay, maybe this does not apply personally to YOU Mike, but is what most young people do anyway.
So .... the lament about putting their children into Institutionalised Day Care Centres to be brought up by strangers while both parents work ..... So that Shopping can be more fun?
Please, anyone may reply to this question.
mike69spain: I do not think twice when I hear a woman choose to stay home and take full charge of the house while the man is working full-time.
If I hear the opposite I react to it somehow - I do not find it wrong, still I feel it is strange.
Funny how we are raised, really
If I hear the opposite I react to it somehow - I do not find it wrong, still I feel it is strange.
Funny how we are raised, really
Yes, maybe its in how we are raised? My kids had me at home all the time, now my sons wife comes from a family where the mother worked 100%....so the daughter automatically works too. The compromise with their kids? .... Get Granny to be at home for the children.
smoky: So .... the lament about putting their children into Institutionalised Day Care Centres to be brought up by strangers while both parents work ..... So that Shopping can be more fun?
I definitely think "material security" is a big drive in wanting to have more money to pay for all those credits.
Honestly, why do we need a wall sized TV to play Nintendo?
What was wrong with Table tennis in the basement or croquet or any other real world game?
Children in the day care? In Spain the kids start to attend a type of school already at the age of three!! Surely to liberate parents so they can work more, earn more and consume more, as I can not say the kids seem to learn more
We will go for a Nanny at home instead, but we are making the choice for two reasons - one is that we will at times be home odd hours during the day and then we can be together AND two - we are a bit weary of dropping the kid into the hardships of the world out there before he/she have learned who is actually the family. The Nanny will be a relative of ours.
Why do not one of us stay home? I will stay home more often than not, but when I go I go travelling and stay away for days.
Andreea, she have a career to attend to that is in her interest and she will spend quite a short time at home before she plan to be back into the wheel. We are not doing it for shopping, as we already have that part covered, but rather for egoistic reasons, and as such we may very well change our mind when we well have our baby.
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First off:
He was complaining about meeting women who all seemed to want to be "looked after", that they were not independent and financially secure in their own right.
Then ............... he veered off into complaining about women wanting to be independent and not wanting to stay at home anymore - looking after the children, running the home, etc etc.
He also stated that if Mothers were restricted from working in the business world - that they HAD to stay home - this would release more jobs for men. Children would be better cared for by having their mothers at home. And generally the world would be a better place.
My argument was this:
WHY are there so many women looking for a man to care for them? Is the reason they are not financially secure because they grew up assuming a man would one day take care of them?.. So they stayed home and cared for the children/home ... and then got offloaded when they got older, and now they have no personal insurances or retirement policies?
So ... of course... these women now need taking care of?
To complain about the independence of the modern woman, the loss of jobs, the children in Day Care Centres, etc etc ...... not something that Man has brought about himself?
When did men stop caring for their women? Why do men not care for their women anymore?
What is it about women that men would realy like? Do they even kinow themselves what it is they want out of relationships?
And in the meantime, women will have to continue with being independent and not depending on men anymore.