Is Marriage an Act of Desperation? (134)
JacobGrimm: Well, I dont disagree Dusty, only with those for whom spirituality is the only course of life. Spirituality can be an addiction as anything else can.
All things have extremes. To deny this would be the keynote of addiction.
All things have extremes. To deny this would be the keynote of addiction.
Yes, the requisite to a balanced Spiritual Life is the quality
interaction with others where we truly learn about our
Self. Quality meaning to recognize ourselves in Others.
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BarrenPneuma: The only extent for which dissolution seems the only option is the complete and total intentional abandonment of the initial goals that drew two people together. For example an illness that precludes the original life is not appropriate as there is a mutual expectation to support through thick and thin, and this would infer a selfish interest wherein one's personal life came before the others. Bringing another person into the monogamous relationship would definitely be a reason as there would be a breach of trust and respect. The risk of disease and the separation of two individuals for purely selfish reasons.
Abandonment is a symptom not the cause though so its reference is sort of off course. No one can make us feel anything it is in our own choice or failing that we reach conclusions one way or the other. Of course there will be some sort of awareness however deep or passing that will accompany such a loss. Perhaps equivalent to a death if one's personal attachment was uninterrupted or pure. These are still the after effects or fall-out and not the cause.
If neither has any impositions of any sort then it is up to both of them equally to make better what has become a routine which threatens their once thriving life. You only fail when you give up. Effort, any effort will make things change and with drive and determination there are no obstacles that cannot be overcome if both partners are seeking the same goal. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink, is what will occur if one of the two does not maintain the same desires though. And that is selfish to pretend or refuse.
Abandonment is a symptom not the cause though so its reference is sort of off course. No one can make us feel anything it is in our own choice or failing that we reach conclusions one way or the other. Of course there will be some sort of awareness however deep or passing that will accompany such a loss. Perhaps equivalent to a death if one's personal attachment was uninterrupted or pure. These are still the after effects or fall-out and not the cause.
If neither has any impositions of any sort then it is up to both of them equally to make better what has become a routine which threatens their once thriving life. You only fail when you give up. Effort, any effort will make things change and with drive and determination there are no obstacles that cannot be overcome if both partners are seeking the same goal. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink, is what will occur if one of the two does not maintain the same desires though. And that is selfish to pretend or refuse.
I started counting "ifs" and stopped and therein lies the difficulty with altruistic notions. Altruism can have NO 'ifs' at all and this is why it does not function in real life.
The sentiment is fine; but, sentiment is notion and notion is corruptable, in fact it is possible it was born in corruption. Preconcieved notions are like that. This needs to be balanced with reality, hence the presence of so many 'ifs' in your comments. You subconscioius is trying to balance the notions of altruism in your words.
The goal needs to be the same as you note; but the length and expiry of this goal often doesn't land in our hands alone. Sometimes, even separation is the goal and with that can come love as well. We are not always being abandoned or ignored, this too is a preconcieved notion.
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Galactic_bodhi: I think many of the problems caused by ego are the fear that others don't share this Love.
Yet another ridiculous twisting of "the Way". How can one be, and not the other?
The realization that we are spirit should enlighten us to the fact that others are as much spirit as we are. This should give us confidence that when we act, it ultimately serves Spirit no matter what the labels applied to the action attribute it as...
Thus, I may be cruel, only to be kind.
I may act the fool, who is twin to the wise.
I may whinny like a horse, although I will not be saddled.
And I may state wise things, even though my brain is addled.
Yet another ridiculous twisting of "the Way". How can one be, and not the other?
The realization that we are spirit should enlighten us to the fact that others are as much spirit as we are. This should give us confidence that when we act, it ultimately serves Spirit no matter what the labels applied to the action attribute it as...
Thus, I may be cruel, only to be kind.
I may act the fool, who is twin to the wise.
I may whinny like a horse, although I will not be saddled.
And I may state wise things, even though my brain is addled.
I love paradox. Are you my teacher or my student? 
That choice is often preconcieved.------ This thread is Archived ------
Dusty45: BarrenPneuma, I agree with you completely. You have the
courage to make the equation of Love is God.
I didn't, because I thought I'd lose the audience for the
message I was trying to give. Many have problems with the
word God but will accept inclusive Spirituality.
Yes, I agree.
Love is God
and
God is Love.
courage to make the equation of Love is God.
I didn't, because I thought I'd lose the audience for the
message I was trying to give. Many have problems with the
word God but will accept inclusive Spirituality.
Yes, I agree.
Love is God
and
God is Love.
Very true, Dusty and Mark.
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JacobGrimm: I love paradox. Are you my teacher or my student? That choice is often preconcieved.
Paradox is only a challenge to a linear mind. The whole purpose of a Koan is to move us beyond linearity into the realm of no-thought.
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JacobGrimm: I'm not sure why Dana It makes perfect sense to me, though perhaps you think I meant not ever considering any spiritual aspects at all, and I most certainly didn't mean that. A balanced approach to all things was what I meant
I could have been clearer; but I was talking earlier about some who are addicted to spirituality so much that they miss life and so thought I had made my intent known.
I could have been clearer; but I was talking earlier about some who are addicted to spirituality so much that they miss life and so thought I had made my intent known.
Now that makes more sense.
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JacobGrimm: To qualify even further, just being 'attached' or in a serious relationship.
So many people rely on and or talk about soulmates, as if there is only this one solution to being alone in life. Desperately seeking the one. How many people do we pass by as unsuitable without examination, in this desperation and is it healthy for us to consider but one single choice.
With so much failure in relationships, is monogamy a cause of this desperation, abiding a delusion created by religion's moral codes.
If marriage is an act of love, what is love an act of?
So many people rely on and or talk about soulmates, as if there is only this one solution to being alone in life. Desperately seeking the one. How many people do we pass by as unsuitable without examination, in this desperation and is it healthy for us to consider but one single choice.
With so much failure in relationships, is monogamy a cause of this desperation, abiding a delusion created by religion's moral codes.
If marriage is an act of love, what is love an act of?
Hiya Jacob!
Just curiousity on my part; have you ever been in a really good marriage? From what I've seen you post, I get the impression that you would have a real problem with making that type of commitment. Am I wrong? No offence intended; as I said just curious.------ This thread is Archived ------
Galactic_bodhi: Paradox is only a challenge to a linear mind. The whole purpose of a Koan is to move us beyond linearity into the realm of no-thought.
While it is not a contest...I Love the Journey.
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Dusty45: While it is not a contest...I Love the Journey.
The Journey is all there is.
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Galactic_bodhi: Paradox is only a challenge to a linear mind. The whole purpose of a Koan is to move us beyond linearity into the realm of no-thought.
Not familiar with the Koan; but, I understand the intent of being 'notionless', in the gap, between thoughts.
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Sorry, I thought I had qualified in earlier posts, perhaps not woody636: Hiya Jacob! Just curiousity on my part; have you ever been in a really good marriage? From what I've seen you post, I get the impression that you would have a real problem with making that type of commitment. Am I wrong? No offence intended; as I said just curious.
Been married once! Some 25 yrs ago.
Not with the committment Woody, but with the intent of the notion. I understand the concepts of marriage and the 'perfections of altruism' that we aspire to in commitment. I don't want to commit to a notion' but to a person and myself.I try to live more in the now, or at least as much as is possible with my present limitations and nature. The OP is about riding ourselves of preconcieved notions that may not sever us as we might think they do and I am really just asking the questions about this to see where others are and to learn.
Once I have decided to committ to anything, I am probably stubbornly committed, any of my friends might tell you this. I am however as I said, not willing to committ to a notion unless, it is, as much as possible, more about 'now', than about yesterday's or tomorrow's notions. And that too is an altruistic notion in itself.
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JacobGrimm: Been married once! Some 25 yrs ago.
Not with the committment Woody, but with the intent of the notion. I understand the concepts of marriage and the 'perfections of altruism' that we aspire to in commitment. I don't want to commit to a notion' but to a person and myself.
I try to live more in the now, or at least as much as is possible with my present limitations and nature. The OP is about riding ourselves of preconcieved notions that may not sever us as we might think they do and I am really just asking the questions about this to see where others are and to learn.
Once I have decided to committ to anything, I am probably stubbornly committed, any of my friends might tell you this. I am however as I said, not willing to committ to a notion unless, it is, as much as possible, more about 'now', than about yesterday's or tomorrow's notions. And that too is an altruistic notion in itself.
Not with the committment Woody, but with the intent of the notion. I understand the concepts of marriage and the 'perfections of altruism' that we aspire to in commitment. I don't want to commit to a notion' but to a person and myself.
I try to live more in the now, or at least as much as is possible with my present limitations and nature. The OP is about riding ourselves of preconcieved notions that may not sever us as we might think they do and I am really just asking the questions about this to see where others are and to learn.
Once I have decided to committ to anything, I am probably stubbornly committed, any of my friends might tell you this. I am however as I said, not willing to committ to a notion unless, it is, as much as possible, more about 'now', than about yesterday's or tomorrow's notions. And that too is an altruistic notion in itself.
Thx for the response. Personally, I was in a very good marriage for 36 years until losing her to cancer. To me the act of marriage was a promise to work at the relationship, something we both took very seriously. Our lives were intertwined in all things as she was also my best friend. I understand what you're saying but if you can't/won't commit, are you in effect saying "I can walk away anytime I want"? Maybe some of that is preconceived notions, but then you are a product of your environment and how you were raised. I think maybe the high divorce rate has more to do with "instant gratification" then anything else. If you aren't "happy" just bail out. As a lot of people have already stated, a ltr takes work from both parties and a commitment to make it work. The actual marriage certificate was just a public declaration of our intentions. For me, the benefits of having a life long companion to share ALL the joys, heartaches, triumphs, and failures far outweighed any of the obstacles we had to overcome. At least for me, that's how it worked.
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woody636: Thx for the response. Personally, I was in a very good marriage for 36 years until losing her to cancer. To me the act of marriage was a promise to work at the relationship, something we both took very seriously. Our lives were intertwined in all things as she was also my best friend. I understand what you're saying but if you can't/won't commit, are you in effect saying "I can walk away anytime I want"? Maybe some of that is preconceived notions, but then you are a product of your environment and how you were raised. I think maybe the high divorce rate has more to do with "instant gratification" then anything else. If you aren't "happy" just bail out. As a lot of people have already stated, a ltr takes work from both parties and a commitment to make it work. The actual marriage certificate was just a public declaration of our intentions. For me, the benefits of having a life long companion to share ALL the joys, heartaches, triumphs, and failures far outweighed any of the obstacles we had to overcome. At least for me, that's how it worked.
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woody636: If you take as given, that were an intelligent species, then you have to assume that people can differentiate between the glorified stories of love at the movies and real life relationships based on personal observations. No one knows what tomorrow is going to bring. You base your decisions on how you feel and how you perceive yourself and your partner at that time. I think I understand what your saying about the "notion of forever" but what if you change that to "the notion of building a life together"? I believe that's more apt and the other is more "poetic liscense" then anything else.
well it's still a notion woody and 'life' is the forever part
Still somewhat poetically inclined .. Just not sure that changes falling for preconceptions. However I'd be more for that notion, as far as notions goIn response to:
Would I have made the same commitment if I knew it was only for two weeks? Would depend on the circumstances. If she was terminally ill and only had two weeks to live - if I loved her I'd do it in a heartbeat. If she was moving away to start another career on the other side of the world - probably not because there wouldn't be the expectation of building a life for the two of us. Would I enjoy the two weeks we had before she left? Definitely, but not in the same exact way. Know what I mean?
Would I have made the same commitment if I knew it was only for two weeks? Would depend on the circumstances. If she was terminally ill and only had two weeks to live - if I loved her I'd do it in a heartbeat. If she was moving away to start another career on the other side of the world - probably not because there wouldn't be the expectation of building a life for the two of us. Would I enjoy the two weeks we had before she left? Definitely, but not in the same exact way. Know what I mean?
I do know what you mean. These are however "if you knew such and such, scenarios" and I am asking ,what would you do if you didn't know these things. No ifs, ands, or buts...
In response to:
I think you're right to a point about the preconceived notions. Some are so caught up in the fictionalized accounts of "storybook romances" that they can't face the reality of marriage or a long term relationship. But, for every bad marriage/relationship you know about, I'll bet I can name a good one too! We don't hear about those because they're not on this site. (At least most aren't! )
I think you're right to a point about the preconceived notions. Some are so caught up in the fictionalized accounts of "storybook romances" that they can't face the reality of marriage or a long term relationship. But, for every bad marriage/relationship you know about, I'll bet I can name a good one too! We don't hear about those because they're not on this site. (At least most aren't! )
this site isn't exactly my prime indicator of mariage statistics. Global stats show a great deal of non success and in fact a lot of people don't get married, they live together now first to see if its workable. The problem I think is the 'notion' of forever again... ie, "do I really want to spend my life with this person who leaves the toilet seat up, annoying the hell out of me, for the rest of my life, forever." It becomes and exageration of hell just as the exageration of heaven was when they fell in love.In response to:
As for notions of forever, be it heaven or hell, maybe its more that people get caught up in the moment and commit to something BEFORE they've fully thought it through. Divorce is so easy and as for live ins - you can move in one day and out the next. Passion tends to make people think with the wrong part of their anatomy! Marriage or ltr is not a decision to be made lightly; if you go into the situation with realistic expectations your partner/spouse is not trying to live up to some fairytale image.
As for notions of forever, be it heaven or hell, maybe its more that people get caught up in the moment and commit to something BEFORE they've fully thought it through. Divorce is so easy and as for live ins - you can move in one day and out the next. Passion tends to make people think with the wrong part of their anatomy! Marriage or ltr is not a decision to be made lightly; if you go into the situation with realistic expectations your partner/spouse is not trying to live up to some fairytale image.
Cant disagree. Realistic and as much in the now as possible
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JacobGrimm: well it's still a notion woody and 'life' is the forever part Still somewhat poetically inclined .. Just not sure that changes falling for preconceptions. However I'd be more for that notion, as far as notions go
Don't quite understand where you're going on this one. Everyone has expectations of what they want or are looking for out of life. I expected certain things out of my marriage. That's realistic, not a preconceived idea. If I expected her to cook, clean, and be dressed up with makeup when I got home from work, those would be preconceived ideas. We wanted to have a family, build a home, and discussed such BEFORE marriage, so not really preconceived.
I do know what you mean. These are however "if you knew such and such, scenarios" and I am asking ,what would you do if you didn't know these things. No ifs, ands, or buts...
I DID that. When I married my wife, no one gave me a guarantee that we were going to live "happily ever after" or that it would last longer that two weeks. I KNEW I wanted to be with her - no matter how long our time together would be - and we PROMISED each other to work at it in our marriage vows.
this site isn't exactly my prime indicator of mariage statistics. Global stats show a great deal of non success and in fact a lot of people don't get married, they live together now first to see if its workable. The problem I think is the 'notion' of forever again... ie, "do I really want to spend my life with this person who leaves the toilet seat up, annoying the hell out of me, for the rest of my life, forever." It becomes and exageration of hell just as the exageration of heaven was when they fell in love.
Disagree here. I think the reason marriages are on the downswing is because women are much more finacially independent. That wasn't the case in our recent past. There's your notions! In years past for a woman to be considered sucessful she had to be married, have a home, 2.2 kids, a dog, ect., ect.. Doesn't apply anymore as they have become a force in the workplace, taking there place right there with the men for the top jobs.
Cant disagree. Realistic and as much in the now as possible
Don't quite understand where you're going on this one. Everyone has expectations of what they want or are looking for out of life. I expected certain things out of my marriage. That's realistic, not a preconceived idea. If I expected her to cook, clean, and be dressed up with makeup when I got home from work, those would be preconceived ideas. We wanted to have a family, build a home, and discussed such BEFORE marriage, so not really preconceived.
I do know what you mean. These are however "if you knew such and such, scenarios" and I am asking ,what would you do if you didn't know these things. No ifs, ands, or buts...
I DID that. When I married my wife, no one gave me a guarantee that we were going to live "happily ever after" or that it would last longer that two weeks. I KNEW I wanted to be with her - no matter how long our time together would be - and we PROMISED each other to work at it in our marriage vows.
this site isn't exactly my prime indicator of mariage statistics. Global stats show a great deal of non success and in fact a lot of people don't get married, they live together now first to see if its workable. The problem I think is the 'notion' of forever again... ie, "do I really want to spend my life with this person who leaves the toilet seat up, annoying the hell out of me, for the rest of my life, forever." It becomes and exageration of hell just as the exageration of heaven was when they fell in love.
Disagree here. I think the reason marriages are on the downswing is because women are much more finacially independent. That wasn't the case in our recent past. There's your notions! In years past for a woman to be considered sucessful she had to be married, have a home, 2.2 kids, a dog, ect., ect.. Doesn't apply anymore as they have become a force in the workplace, taking there place right there with the men for the top jobs.
Cant disagree. Realistic and as much in the now as possible
We are all products of our upbringing to an extent. What's "realistic" for me is not necessarily the same for you. That's not really all that bad a thing; makes the world an interesting place to visit!
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woody636: We are all products of our upbringing to an extent.
Moreso than we think would be my assessment Woody. It's these by-products of upbringing that we need to examine to see if they help or hinder our own progress.
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very essence. It is who we really are.
We can have a high quality life developing our spiritual
nature along with improving others lives at the same time
without imposing our spiritual progression on any one else.
We live here with a new attitude, a shifting in our Mind.
We live by the Golden Rule. Believing and trusting
that others share Love too.
We create a world with a new outlook. Choosing Love and not
ego-fear. Everything changes.
I think many of the problems caused by ego are the fear that others don't share this Love.
Yet another ridiculous twisting of "the Way". How can one be, and not the other?
The realization that we are spirit should enlighten us to the fact that others are as much spirit as we are. This should give us confidence that when we act, it ultimately serves Spirit no matter what the labels applied to the action attribute it as...
Thus, I may be cruel, only to be kind.
I may act the fool, who is twin to the wise.
I may whinny like a horse, although I will not be saddled.
And I may state wise things, even though my brain is addled.