Should forms of torture be permitted against key figures in the war on terror? (61)
vinny1967: . People have been tortured even tho they are innocent...... and that to me is wrong.
Now, that is a different kettle of fish Vinny. If it OBVIOUS that they have no vital or valid information, then I agree. However, if it is known otherwise, then all is fair in love and war to extract that information.
Steve5721: But my family are not terrorists! However, I do see your point Vinny and to be VERY honest with you...I would hate them enough to let it happen. If they had terrorist links, they would not belong to my family..as harsh as that may sound.
Whats a link Steve....
Someone they know, but dont know what they are doing ?And I suppose it all depends on ones definition of 'terrorist'. I have seen Governments terrorising peoples.
My point is, in very few cases there is 'No Doubt' that the individual being tortured has information. I suppose thats why they are being tortured............to illicit the truth.
Best of luck in the Calcutta Cup.....
Steve5721: Now, that is a different kettle of fish Vinny. If it OBVIOUS that they have no vital or valid information, then I agree. However, if it is known otherwise, then all is fair in love and war to extract that information.
If they are 100 % certian that they have information that will save lives, I would agree.
My problem is it is an awful lot of power to be giving one human being over another, and humans by their very nature are weak, have natural likes and dislikes, want to impress others and their judements become clouded.
Hence my abhorrence of torture.
vinny1967: Hiya Hon........
Well you know my feelings... Their 'war on terror' is not winable, especially they way they are going about it.
How's you ?
Well you know my feelings... Their 'war on terror' is not winable, especially they way they are going about it.
How's you ?
Have you been watching the Chilcot Enquiry Vin, I think its the farce of the century!
Im good thanks hun, are you?
Would someone please define TORTURE,before opening their mouths screaming!
Conrad73: Would someone please define TORTURE,before opening their mouths screaming!
Sure Conrad, its what should happen to politicians who have their fingers in the pie that they are trying to sell
trish123: Sure Conrad, its what should happen to politicians who have their fingers in the pie that they are trying to sell
Just make sure the Pie is HOT!
K_rational:
The only people who are in favour of torture are those ignorant of what goes on, and/or sociopaths who rank alongside those who would torture and mutilate animals.
Torture does not work, it has never worked, and it will never work. Those who disagree are ignorant or inhuman.
The only people who are in favour of torture are those ignorant of what goes on, and/or sociopaths who rank alongside those who would torture and mutilate animals.
Torture does not work, it has never worked, and it will never work. Those who disagree are ignorant or inhuman.
I disagree...for I am neither ignorant or inhuman. I do have compassion...but not for terrorists.
vinny1967: Hi J....
Its an emotive subject and in 'some' cases where there is actually NO DOUBT it can work. Unfortunately Governments are doing it, and in some cases flaunting their constitution. People have been tortured even tho they are innocent...... and that to me is wrong.
Its an emotive subject and in 'some' cases where there is actually NO DOUBT it can work. Unfortunately Governments are doing it, and in some cases flaunting their constitution. People have been tortured even tho they are innocent...... and that to me is wrong.
It is indeed a hard subject and I think we all agree that as a rule of thumb should not be condoned. I find that often my kneejerk reflex is to sat absolutly not...but when I bring it down to a personal level...what would I do to save my child,? Then I have to rethink my position.
You're right though...who do we trust with these decisions...who makes the judgement call?
NAKEDMUDPEOPLE: Torture is what is to be expected before death.
We all suffer. Some lives will pass fast and some will last forever.
Terrorist are people who do not know any better.
They are screaming all over this world in pain and suffering.
If this world can not share the pain of each other, we are all lost together.
We all suffer. Some lives will pass fast and some will last forever.
Terrorist are people who do not know any better.
They are screaming all over this world in pain and suffering.
If this world can not share the pain of each other, we are all lost together.
Who are you kidding, terrorists are inhumane, they call them selves soldiers, but killing innocent women and children, that's just crap. soldier fights soldier, not women and children, and for me, the moment, they became terrorists, all bets are off, they fight dirty, so should we . . .
They rejected all human rights, and conventions, in the name of RELIGION, they made their choice, misled or not, we are in the 21st century, we all have brains and we all make choices. . . if torture would give info, of a bomb planted in a hospital, school, or where ever innocent people would die, and if someone you love would be killed if it would go off, wouldn't you do anything to get the info, so that person would live . . . or if your life would be saved by the act of torture . . . Would you still say what you just did . . . and MAYBE, your life was already saved by torture, and you just don't know it . . . it is easy to be all high and mighty, but when you are in the thick of it . . . then you change your mind . . . So do not preach something, you don't know nothing about, let alone know how it feels to be on the receiving end of Terrorists . . .
( the same goes for p*dophile, kidnappers, sociopaths, rapists, and the worst scum on the earth . . . . innocent lives are all that mater, that's it )
jbibiza:
You're right though...who do we trust with these decisions...who makes the judgement call?
You're right though...who do we trust with these decisions...who makes the judgement call?
THAT indeed is the $64,000 question!
There is no doubt that innocent people HAVE been tortured but also guilty ones have too and information extracted. However, yes who should be the arbitary ones to make that call.
I read on nhere that Governments are to blame, but lest we forget, they do make decisions based upon evidence or 'facts' presented to them. They don't give the green light to anyone.
Yes, at times that evidence is factoried and embellished and it comes back to bite them on the bum, but someone had to present 'evidence' to those powers that be and assertions made and then decisions made by those in power.
It is indeed a very emotive subject, but if innocent lives can be saved..save those lives.
My answer is no about torture.
Steve5721: THAT indeed is the $64,000 question!
There is no doubt that innocent people HAVE been tortured but also guilty ones have too and information extracted. However, yes who should be the arbitary ones to make that call.
I read on nhere that Governments are to blame, but lest we forget, they do make decisions based upon evidence or 'facts' presented to them. They don't give the green light to anyone.
Yes, at times that evidence is factoried and embellished and it comes back to bite them on the bum, but someone had to present 'evidence' to those powers that be and assertions made and then decisions made by those in power.
It is indeed a very emotive subject, but if innocent lives can be saved..save those lives.
There is no doubt that innocent people HAVE been tortured but also guilty ones have too and information extracted. However, yes who should be the arbitary ones to make that call.
I read on nhere that Governments are to blame, but lest we forget, they do make decisions based upon evidence or 'facts' presented to them. They don't give the green light to anyone.
Yes, at times that evidence is factoried and embellished and it comes back to bite them on the bum, but someone had to present 'evidence' to those powers that be and assertions made and then decisions made by those in power.
It is indeed a very emotive subject, but if innocent lives can be saved..save those lives.
Yeah...they still haven't found those weapons of mass destruction...
Where is Jack Bauer when you need him...he alwsys gets it right...
jbibiza: It is indeed a hard subject and I think we all agree that as a rule of thumb should not be condoned. I find that often my kneejerk reflex is to sat absolutly not...but when I bring it down to a personal level...what would I do to save my child,? Then I have to rethink my position.
You're right though...who do we trust with these decisions...who makes the judgement call?
You're right though...who do we trust with these decisions...who makes the judgement call?
Personally, I would do anything to extract that information that was needed to save my families lives, and I would accept the consequences of those actions.
Legally and politically...........It should never be allowed or condoned as different motives are in play.
And I'm not sure it actually works. From what I have read on the subject the results are extremely questionable.
trish123: Have you been watching the Chilcot Enquiry Vin, I think its the farce of the century!
Im good thanks hun, are you?
Im good thanks hun, are you?
Yeah have been watching it........
How do you get Goldsmith to change his mind.........Hmmmmm
A waste of time and monies I think......
Glad your well.......
I still see everyone talking about Torture,yet no one seems to consider it necessary to define what Torture is!
Conrad73: I still see everyone talking about Torture,yet no one seems to consider it necessary to define what Torture is!
Some peoples definitions on page 1 Con....
Me personally am talkin about the forms of torture that have come to light since the 'war on terror' started.
Conrad73: I still see everyone talking about Torture,yet no one seems to consider it necessary to define what Torture is!
rapid14u: Serious torture interrogation techniques.
Waterboarding.
Starvation.
Humiliation.
Long-term solitary confinement.
Things that have been proven to cause long-term physical and psychological damages, short of death. Or, for that matter, sometimes leading to death from complications which arose from said techniques.
Waterboarding.
Starvation.
Humiliation.
Long-term solitary confinement.
Things that have been proven to cause long-term physical and psychological damages, short of death. Or, for that matter, sometimes leading to death from complications which arose from said techniques.
I might also add to that definition, those things which induce extreme physical pain and near-death situations.
Waterboarding, for example, is basically repeated controlled drowning, to prevent the victim from actually dying, but to cause repeated mental and physical pain.
Well lets just ask them nicely to divulge the plans for their next Attack,pretty please with a Cherry on top!
Conrad73: Well lets just ask them nicely to divulge the plans for their next Attack,pretty please with a Cherry on top!
You could be onto something there Con.............Its good to talk.........
A bit of Solitary Confinement and Sleep-deprivation would do wonders.
No need to lay hand on anyone.
No need to lay hand on anyone.
HealthyLiving: Something we agree on! Imagine That!!
I am AGAINST torture in any form, for any reason, by any person, for any purpose.
WHY?
Because I choose to believe in and operate in Unconditional Love. I do not believe in bringing harm to others or in others doing so. I will not even watch violent movies. I do not like to see people being treated in such a manor.
You may argue; well, they intend to kill thousands of innocents and we can prevent that. To that I say, there are other means of obtaining information.
In my belief system, we will ALL stand before the Master of the Universe and He will reveal that which is within our heart of hearts. His one question...
DID YOU LOVE?
I am AGAINST torture in any form, for any reason, by any person, for any purpose.
WHY?
Because I choose to believe in and operate in Unconditional Love. I do not believe in bringing harm to others or in others doing so. I will not even watch violent movies. I do not like to see people being treated in such a manor.
You may argue; well, they intend to kill thousands of innocents and we can prevent that. To that I say, there are other means of obtaining information.
In my belief system, we will ALL stand before the Master of the Universe and He will reveal that which is within our heart of hearts. His one question...
DID YOU LOVE?
What a nice thing to say, from a person, that I think always had a very nice life, never had to be afraid for her life . . . If this is so I am happy for you, ask your self this, would you think like that, if your loved ones would be in danger . . . honestly, would you?
NO.
....doing so would only mean......that I am no better then the terrorist......and I would have become one......to someone else.....
....doing so would only mean......that I am no better then the terrorist......and I would have become one......to someone else.....
gozoman2: NO.
....doing so would only mean......that I am no better then the terrorist......and I would have become one......to someone else.....
....doing so would only mean......that I am no better then the terrorist......and I would have become one......to someone else.....
There is an important detail the pro-torture types forget (read: deliberately ignore) when they try to talk about "worst case scenario" justifications for torture.
They blithely ignore the fact that those willing to bomb and/or mass murder large numbers of people are likely to be "true believers" and not concerned for their own safety or well being. Torture isn't going to work on them because they're willing to die for their cause.
As well, soldiers doing "black ops" (illegal murders and such in other countries) are trained to resist torture. It's not going to work on them either. The only people that torture would work are those unlikely to be a threat, so it serves no purpose in either case.
Just as noticeably, those who argue for "worst case scenarios" are using single cases as justification for using torture in all cases.
.
No ... No... and no......
and when you toture people, you really mostly get the wrong information as well..... Torture is for revenge.... Nothing else... and there has allready been too much of that...
Make the worl a better place, takes something else.....
Understanding.... for the differences ... and let's take it from there...
There are fights - that must be fought.... No doubt about that...
But it takes more than a fight to win the peace, wich most normal people in the world long for....
and when you toture people, you really mostly get the wrong information as well..... Torture is for revenge.... Nothing else... and there has allready been too much of that...
Make the worl a better place, takes something else.....
Understanding.... for the differences ... and let's take it from there...
There are fights - that must be fought.... No doubt about that...
But it takes more than a fight to win the peace, wich most normal people in the world long for....
Should forms of torture be permitted against key figures in the war on terror?
By all means.
I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and most of that entire administration should be tortured for the rest of their lives, as well as those who supported their policies. Meanwhile all their money and posessions should be confiscated to pay reparitions to their victims, both in the US and abroad.
It's not that I relish their well deserved pain, but it might serve as a good lesson to the world about the consequences of evil.
Obama hasn't really done anything yet. But when he does I'm sure he'll merit his share of torture too.
By all means.
I think Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and most of that entire administration should be tortured for the rest of their lives, as well as those who supported their policies. Meanwhile all their money and posessions should be confiscated to pay reparitions to their victims, both in the US and abroad.
It's not that I relish their well deserved pain, but it might serve as a good lesson to the world about the consequences of evil.
Obama hasn't really done anything yet. But when he does I'm sure he'll merit his share of torture too.
RayfromUSA:
Obama hasn't really done anything yet. But when he does I'm sure he'll merit his share of torture too.
Obama hasn't really done anything yet. But when he does I'm sure he'll merit his share of torture too.
Come to think of it, maybe we should do what the Nobel Prize folks did. Just assume that Obama will someday do something to earn the award. So let's just go aheand and torture him now.
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I don't condone torture...but in a situation where there is NO DOUBT the person has info that would save lives... I would say do what it takes to get that info.
Hi J....
Its an emotive subject and in 'some' cases where there is actually NO DOUBT it can work. Unfortunately Governments are doing it, and in some cases flaunting their constitution. People have been tortured even tho they are innocent......