MUSLIMS IN EUROPE (100)
Walk the city streets from London to Paris; Madrid to the villages of Kosovo and you'll hear and see for yourself. Tragically we are headed for a nasty confrontation by many radical groups. It's going to be payback time for Europe for all their anti Arab, anti Muslim policies since the invention of Israel; certainly since the founding of the PLO and all the efforts by our puppet regimes and the US to crush Arab resistance to Israel and the cause of Palestine...a free state of Palestine. We are going to pay a heavy price for our lethargy in allowing our so called 'free and democratic' governments to unconditionally support the Zionists.
I'm only surprised that our troops have not been sent to help slaughter the Arabs alongside the Zionists . Perhaps it may come yet, after all, isn't Israel the very hallmark of Democracy and Freedom and that the Arabs and Muslems all evil and therefore our enemy as we all must support Israel without conditions and do all we can; all we must to remove any and all threats to the continued existence of the Zionists, less we be called 'anti Semitic', anti jewish; pro Arab/ Muslim terrorist ...
I'm only surprised that our troops have not been sent to help slaughter the Arabs alongside the Zionists . Perhaps it may come yet, after all, isn't Israel the very hallmark of Democracy and Freedom and that the Arabs and Muslems all evil and therefore our enemy as we all must support Israel without conditions and do all we can; all we must to remove any and all threats to the continued existence of the Zionists, less we be called 'anti Semitic', anti jewish; pro Arab/ Muslim terrorist ...
No one dared yet
Muslim is a reclusive religion compared to, say, protestants...well, yeah.
Muslims integrated in a very permissive environment such as NL for example is a messy concept. You won't notice it in Portugal because the society there is reclusive too in a way.
Periods are when muslims complain about naked posters around the country, claiming to offend there values;
When a Morrokian locks his wife home so she cannot have contact with the Dutch, I don't understand. Worse even when they decide to import women from Morroko, who are safely detached from Dutch or western countries to get married to, yet, they want to sleep with the blondes (or other cultures) because they are fun. It turns to be disrespectful to be seen that way;
A father feels honored when he kills his cheating daughter. He goes happy to prison because he killed in the name of his religion;
All these values clash with the freedom that is enshrined for all citizens. Up to what extend should the authorities intervene? Up to where are their citizens being offended according the country's conception? Offence in NL may not be considered offence in most muslim countries.
If the muslims (say Morrokians and...) say: "just leave us alone, we are here to do good". It might create a dangerous segregation...
On the other hand, I think that generations after generations, whatever your ancestors are, you will be assimilating the culture you are incerted in.
I think that the strongest western values are socio-political oriented rather than cultural in strictu sensus. Meaning that, everything is permissive until you cross other person's sphere.
How many of you who had jews grand-parents do nothing about it?
I think that more and more, there is less of a need of belonging to a nation for other reasons than socio-political, economical.
My conclusion is: Socio-political bounds are stronger than religion. If you are muslim, living here, you will assimilate eventually. Western values are won't be relinquished.
Muslim is a reclusive religion compared to, say, protestants...well, yeah.
Muslims integrated in a very permissive environment such as NL for example is a messy concept. You won't notice it in Portugal because the society there is reclusive too in a way
.Periods are when muslims complain about naked posters around the country, claiming to offend there values;
When a Morrokian locks his wife home so she cannot have contact with the Dutch, I don't understand. Worse even when they decide to import women from Morroko, who are safely detached from Dutch or western countries to get married to, yet, they want to sleep with the blondes (or other cultures) because they are fun. It turns to be disrespectful to be seen that way;
A father feels honored when he kills his cheating daughter. He goes happy to prison because he killed in the name of his religion;
All these values clash with the freedom that is enshrined for all citizens. Up to what extend should the authorities intervene? Up to where are their citizens being offended according the country's conception? Offence in NL may not be considered offence in most muslim countries.
If the muslims (say Morrokians and...) say: "just leave us alone, we are here to do good". It might create a dangerous segregation...
On the other hand, I think that generations after generations, whatever your ancestors are, you will be assimilating the culture you are incerted in.
I think that the strongest western values are socio-political oriented rather than cultural in strictu sensus. Meaning that, everything is permissive until you cross other person's sphere.
How many of you who had jews grand-parents do nothing about it?
I think that more and more, there is less of a need of belonging to a nation for other reasons than socio-political, economical.
My conclusion is: Socio-political bounds are stronger than religion. If you are muslim, living here, you will assimilate eventually. Western values are won't be relinquished.
The more globalised, the more mingled
Morrokians were "imported" to work in construction field. Because they were not simply equipments, they reproduzed themselves.
Do they cosntitute a threat to Western values? Hahaha, how? The mingling? No. The permissive laws, the integrative laws are there out of compassion, humanism and compromising-normal when there are at least two parts. Adjustments and not relinquishing of Western values.
Morrokians were "imported" to work in construction field. Because they were not simply equipments, they reproduzed themselves.
Do they cosntitute a threat to Western values? Hahaha, how? The mingling? No. The permissive laws, the integrative laws are there out of compassion, humanism and compromising-normal when there are at least two parts. Adjustments and not relinquishing of Western values.
ghost007: Look at this u tube
Do you think that an increase of Muslims in Europe can threaten our secular culture ? or do you think these sort of statments are alot of hype spread by ignorant people?
and i thought these kinda threads were normally on thr Int Forums Do you think that an increase of Muslims in Europe can threaten our secular culture ? or do you think these sort of statments are alot of hype spread by ignorant people?
morgan5: and i thought these kinda threads were normally on thr Int Forums
!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is an important issue in Europe today and should be discussed ...of course in the most rational and objective way possible...but undoubedly ..there has been a revival of religious fundamentalism globally and here include fundamentalista from the christian faith..this fundamentalism ..wherever it comes from may threaten secular culture in addition to this islam has not yet gone through a complete process of secularisation so there is that additional problem ........lets be honest here ..part of the difficulties that turkey is having with its eu membership application is because it is a muslim state.........
I therefore wanted to see what people here thought of the issue i thought it would be interesting especially to here from those individuals that are muslim.....i know you have lived in turkey...the parts i have been to in turkey..were extremely secular ...i dont know about the rest....
INT FORUMS -- are always being criticised but they have some good debated too.....its a breath of fresh air to see threads like summmers on family law ..and not just threads on Barrido diners !!!!!!!!!!
I really do think that those who want to join the EU must have their house organised and free, otherwise it's going to be one way advantage. I mean, if their countries are still obscure, their citizens will all want to leave to the old countries and the other way around doesn't happen. Yes, lets face it, most of the citizens of the new countries want to come to the old Europe and the other way around doesnt happen. Thus, it is so coward to keep restrictive behaviour. They simply aren't attractive! In this manner, I think it's unfair to join the EU.
cristina: I really do think that those who want to join the EU must have their house organised and free, otherwise it's going to be one way advantage. I mean, if their countries are still obscure, their citizens will all want to leave to the old countries and the other way around doesn't happen. Yes, lets face it, most of the citizens of the new countries want to come to the old Europe and the other way around doesnt happen. Thus, it is so coward to keep restrictive behaviour. They simply aren't attractive! In this manner, I think it's unfair to join the EU.
To this sequence, mind my asking...
Aren't the new countris threatening the values of the old Europe?
The one good thing that came out of our young democrasy is that we are now living in a secular state.
We are called The Rainbow Nation for a number of reasons - multi diverse cultures and tribes - native as well as peoples who settled here from all parts of the globe - a truly colourful and diverse mix.
Here you can do your own thing religiously or otherwise, within reason of course.
We are not afraid of Muslims or Jews or Buddhists etc etc etc.
We celebrate our diffirences!
We are called The Rainbow Nation for a number of reasons - multi diverse cultures and tribes - native as well as peoples who settled here from all parts of the globe - a truly colourful and diverse mix.
Here you can do your own thing religiously or otherwise, within reason of course.
We are not afraid of Muslims or Jews or Buddhists etc etc etc.
We celebrate our diffirences!
Apostophe: The one good thing that came out of our young democrasy is that we are now living in a secular state.
We are called The Rainbow Nation for a number of reasons - multi diverse cultures and tribes - native as well as peoples who settled here from all parts of the globe - a truly colourful and diverse mix.
Here you can do your own thing religiously or otherwise, within reason of course.
We are not afraid of Muslims or Jews or Buddhists etc etc etc.
We celebrate our diffirences!
We are called The Rainbow Nation for a number of reasons - multi diverse cultures and tribes - native as well as peoples who settled here from all parts of the globe - a truly colourful and diverse mix.
Here you can do your own thing religiously or otherwise, within reason of course.
We are not afraid of Muslims or Jews or Buddhists etc etc etc.
We celebrate our diffirences!
True, do your religion within reason.
You know what? Most of the muslims living there and in Mozambique are originally from India, Pakistan. I don't know why, but those don't kill each other in the name of religion! They are actually very joyful and do great contribution to the economy. Nowadays, they are simply Africans. Whatever mischivieousness their values originally endorsed, it has vanished...
What I sincerelly think is that Europeans don't want to be a mixed nation, it's not of their essence. They hate to become that way. But as commerce flows around, it's unstopable. Actually, the fight sgainst thereof is inconsistent with their endorsement mainly of the 80's. The idea of saying different cultures in Europe was endorsed very much decades ago, to show their tolerance. Now they want to be distinguished from those who have immigrant descendents for instance. What for? Aren't you having enough of your Government? Take a good look at yourself!
I agree with you - Europeans are stuck in their ways and as it looks to me - quite intolerant and stuffy - they need the winds of change to bring them into the new millenium.
Apostophe: I agree with you - Europeans are stuck in their ways and as it looks to me - quite intolerant and stuffy - they need the winds of change to bring them into the new millenium.
Life is circular. Isn't it interesting hearing a South African saying that to Europeans? Love it
cristina: Life is circular. Isn't it interesting hearing a South African saying that to Europeans? Love it
cristina: True, do your religion within reason.
You know what? Most of the muslims living there and in Mozambique are originally from India, Pakistan. I don't know why, but those don't kill each other in the name of religion! They are actually very joyful and do great contribution to the economy. Nowadays, they are simply Africans. Whatever mischivieousness their values originally endorsed, it has vanished...
What I sincerelly think is that Europeans don't want to be a mixed nation, it's not of their essence. They hate to become that way. But as commerce flows around, it's unstopable. Actually, the fight sgainst thereof is inconsistent with their endorsement mainly of the 80's. The idea of saying different cultures in Europe was endorsed very much decades ago, to show their tolerance. Now they want to be distinguished from those who have immigrant descendents for instance. What for? Aren't you having enough of your Government? Take a good look at yourself!
You know what? Most of the muslims living there and in Mozambique are originally from India, Pakistan. I don't know why, but those don't kill each other in the name of religion! They are actually very joyful and do great contribution to the economy. Nowadays, they are simply Africans. Whatever mischivieousness their values originally endorsed, it has vanished...
What I sincerelly think is that Europeans don't want to be a mixed nation, it's not of their essence. They hate to become that way. But as commerce flows around, it's unstopable. Actually, the fight sgainst thereof is inconsistent with their endorsement mainly of the 80's. The idea of saying different cultures in Europe was endorsed very much decades ago, to show their tolerance. Now they want to be distinguished from those who have immigrant descendents for instance. What for? Aren't you having enough of your Government? Take a good look at yourself!
i don't think it was primarily a perosnal issue, rather a political / governmental one.
yes, maybe the europeans are insular; but does that make them bad people ?
maybe they are just fed up of lax immigration controls now resulting in english not being the primary language on many schools curiculums for one.
another the dress code issues and ghettoism mentality that muslims create.
if a muslim women berates a supermarket cashier for wearing a red poppy ( killing in iran ) when that cashiers son served there.....maybe the ultimate point is equally :
if she ( the muslim ) were to speak so forthrightly ' back in her home country ' she would probably get killed for it ?
and rathermore, that if you want to assimilate..then do as the romans do ? ...fully and unreservedly.
the lack of the latter is the cause of friction in europe.
the UK has not be militarily conquered since 1066
but older residents who maybe remember the war, feel that this
is a far more ' isidious invasion' and they cannot do anything about it !....
hence the tolerance issue of which you speak ??
iamamm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUBLfcGcN5Y
i don't think it was primarily a perosnal issue, rather a political / governmental one.
yes, maybe the europeans are insular; but does that make them bad people ?
maybe they are just fed up of lax immigration controls now resulting in english not being the primary language on many schools curiculums for one.
another the dress code issues and ghettoism mentality that muslims create.
if a muslim women berates a supermarket cashier for wearing a red poppy ( killing in iran ) when that cashiers son served there.....maybe the ultimate point is equally :
if she ( the muslim ) were to speak so forthrightly ' back in her home country ' she would probably get killed for it ?
and rathermore, that if you want to assimilate..then do as the romans do ? ...fully and unreservedly.
the lack of the latter is the cause of friction in europe.
the UK has not be militarily conquered since 1066
but older residents who maybe remember the war, feel that this
is a far more ' isidious invasion' and they cannot do anything about it !....
hence the tolerance issue of which you speak ??
i don't think it was primarily a perosnal issue, rather a political / governmental one.
yes, maybe the europeans are insular; but does that make them bad people ?
maybe they are just fed up of lax immigration controls now resulting in english not being the primary language on many schools curiculums for one.
another the dress code issues and ghettoism mentality that muslims create.
if a muslim women berates a supermarket cashier for wearing a red poppy ( killing in iran ) when that cashiers son served there.....maybe the ultimate point is equally :
if she ( the muslim ) were to speak so forthrightly ' back in her home country ' she would probably get killed for it ?
and rathermore, that if you want to assimilate..then do as the romans do ? ...fully and unreservedly.
the lack of the latter is the cause of friction in europe.
the UK has not be militarily conquered since 1066
but older residents who maybe remember the war, feel that this
is a far more ' isidious invasion' and they cannot do anything about it !....
hence the tolerance issue of which you speak ??
Fully and unreserved assimilation is about the tolerance I'm talking about. How long did you take to learn your Spanish? Is it common for Brits there to assimilate into Spanish Culture like I'm trying to do here? Anyway, to me is no big deal to learn Dutch and everything about NL since I want to make my life here.
You remind me of a Portuguese taxi driver who commented to me about a Chinese smoking in a car beside us: "those chinese smoke nowadays, as if they were allowed to do so in China". I think it's ok for a woman to complain about small things in Iran...even more to what concerns commercial issues.
You remind me of a Portuguese taxi driver who commented to me about a Chinese smoking in a car beside us: "those chinese smoke nowadays, as if they were allowed to do so in China". I think it's ok for a woman to complain about small things in Iran...even more to what concerns commercial issues.
cristina: Fully and unreserved assimilation is about the tolerance I'm talking about. How long did you take to learn your Spanish? Is it common for Brits there to assimilate into Spanish Culture like I'm trying to do here? Anyway, to me is no big deal to learn Dutch and everything about NL since I want to make my life here.
You remind me of a Portuguese taxi driver who commented to me about a Chinese smoking in a car beside us: "those chinese smoke nowadays, as if they were allowed to do so in China". I think it's ok for a woman to complain about small things in Iran...even more to what concerns commercial issues.
You remind me of a Portuguese taxi driver who commented to me about a Chinese smoking in a car beside us: "those chinese smoke nowadays, as if they were allowed to do so in China". I think it's ok for a woman to complain about small things in Iran...even more to what concerns commercial issues.
I think I know what you mean, Cristina - the 2 groups should come together and merge into one consisting of a mixture of both as has been happening throughout the globe since time began. That would be ideal I think. The idea of Europeans saying to others that they cannot enter the Eurozone, for whatever reason, is repulsive to me. After all, who wants to live in a world of little isolated groups living in fear of each other? I dread to imagine the probable consequences of such a scenario.
However, a lot of people are concerned that the two ideologies - European and Islam - are simply incompatible and that any merging we would hope to see is fundementally impossible in the case of Islamic integration into Europe. I think that these same people fear that, due to European weakness, Islam will erode (perhaps is eroding) the core principles of European society. A lot of existing Europeans see the changes in Europe to accommodate Islamic culture more fully as repressive and damaging to their own way of life. This fear is perhaps heightened by a general lack of understanding of Islamic culture and media reports such as the one carried in the Times newspaper in which a woman was stoned to death in Afganistan for committing adultary.
I think that every sane person on the planet hopes for not only a fair integration of a natural process but also acceptance and mutual respect for other people's cultures. JMHO.
Human beings are human beings - where in the Bible/Koran/whatever does it say that men and women are not free to travel on this planet?
rusty_knight: Human beings are human beings - where in the Bible/Koran/whatever does it say that men and women are not free to travel on this planet?
that my dear rusty man is a very good point. where indeed.
ah wait ..found it.. deutoronmy 31: 6, I qoute..'and on the seventh day the Lord of hosts sayeth listen my child, thou shall not loadest thy donkey and march hither for thy manna shall fall on thy head if thee stayeth put long enough!!..
interestingly irrelevant is that another self proclaimed massiah...dame maggie thatcher...said you should indeed get on your bike and ride...
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Do you think that an increase of Muslims in Europe can threaten our secular culture ? or do you think these sort of statments are alot of hype spread by ignorant people?