The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8 ( Archived) (15)

Dec 22, 2010 3:38 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
rozaroz
rozarozrozarozBeirut, Beyrouth Lebanon9 Threads 40 Posts
From a talk by Noam Chomsky, June 2010

What about Hamas?

Hamas became a serious threat—a serious terrorist organization—in January 2006 when Palestinians committed a really serious crime. That was the date of the first free election in any country in the Arab world and the Palestinians voted the wrong way. That's unacceptable to the U.S. Immediately, without a blink of an eye, the U.S. and Israel turned very publically towards punishing the Palestinians for that crime. You can read in the New York Times, in parallel columns, right afterwards—one of them talking about our love for democracy and so on and right alongside it, our plans to punish the Palestinians for the way they voted in the January election. No sense of conflict.

There'd been plenty of punishment of the Palestinians before the election, but it escalated afterwards—Israel went so far as to cut off the flow of water to the arid Gaza Strip. By June, Israel had fired about 7,700 rockets at Gaza and all sorts of other things. All of that's called defense against terrorism. Then, the U.S. and Israel, with cooperation from the Palestinian Authority, tried to carry out a military coup to overthrow the elected government. They were beaten back and Hamas took control. After that, Hamas became one of the world's leading terrorist forces. There's plenty of criticisms you can make of them—the way they treat their own population, for example—but Hamas terrorism is a little hard to establish. The current claim is that their terrorism consists of rockets from Gaza that hit Israel's border cities. That was the justification given for Operation Cast Lead (the U.S./Israeli invasion of December 2008) and also for the Israeli attack on the flotilla last June in international waters where nine people were murdered.

It's only in a deeply indoctrinated country that you can hear that and not laugh in ridicule. Putting aside the comparison between Qassam rockets and the terrorism that the U.S. and Israel are constantly carrying out, the argument has absolutely no credibility for a simple reason: Israel and the U.S. know exactly how to stop the rockets—by peaceful means. In June 2008, Israel agreed to a ceasefire with Hamas. Israel didn't really live up to it—they were supposed to open the borders and they didn't—but Hamas did live up to it. You can look it up on the official Israeli website or listen to their official spokesperson, Mark Regev, and they agree that during the ceasefire there wasn't a single Hamas rocket fired.

Israel broke the ceasefire in November 2008 when it invaded Gaza and killed half a dozen Hamas activists. Then there was some rocket fire and far greater attacks from Israel. A number of people were killed—all Palestinians. Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire. The Israeli cabinet considered it and rejected it, preferring to use violence. A couple of days later came the U.S./Israel attack on Gaza.

In the U.S. and the West generally, it is taken for granted, even by human rights groups and the Goldstone report, that Israel had the right to force and self-defense. There were criticisms that the attack was disproportionate, but they're a secondary matter as Israel had absolutely no right to use force in the first place. You have no justification for the use of force unless you've exhausted peaceful means. In this case, the U.S. and Israel had not just not exhausted them, they had refused even to try peaceful means, which they had every reason to believe would succeed. The concession that Israel had a right to attack is just an amazing gift.

In any case, according to the DOD and U.S. intelligence, Iran's efforts to extend its influence, as well as its support for Hezbollah and Hamas, are what constitute, for the U.S. and its allies, the Iranian threat.
Z
Noam Chomsky is Professor of Linguistics (Emeritus) at MIT and author of dozens of books on U.S. foreign policy.
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Dec 22, 2010 3:40 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Godsgift
GodsgiftGodsgiftEnnis, Clare Ireland251 Threads 13 Polls 10,040 Posts
rozaroz: From a talk by Noam Chomsky, June 2010

What about Hamas?

Hamas became a serious threat—a serious terrorist organization—in January 2006 when Palestinians committed a really serious crime. That was the date of the first free election in any country in the Arab world and the Palestinians voted the wrong way. That's unacceptable to the U.S. Immediately, without a blink of an eye, the U.S. and Israel turned very publically towards punishing the Palestinians for that crime. You can read in the New York Times, in parallel columns, right afterwards—one of them talking about our love for democracy and so on and right alongside it, our plans to punish the Palestinians for the way they voted in the January election. No sense of conflict.

There'd been plenty of punishment of the Palestinians before the election, but it escalated afterwards—Israel went so far as to cut off the flow of water to the arid Gaza Strip. By June, Israel had fired about 7,700 rockets at Gaza and all sorts of other things. All of that's called defense against terrorism. Then, the U.S. and Israel, with cooperation from the Palestinian Authority, tried to carry out a military coup to overthrow the elected government. They were beaten back and Hamas took control. After that, Hamas became one of the world's leading terrorist forces. There's plenty of criticisms you can make of them—the way they treat their own population, for example—but Hamas terrorism is a little hard to establish. The current claim is that their terrorism consists of rockets from Gaza that hit Israel's border cities. That was the justification given for Operation Cast Lead (the U.S./Israeli invasion of December 2008) and also for the Israeli attack on the flotilla last June in international waters where nine people were murdered.

It's only in a deeply indoctrinated country that you can hear that and not laugh in ridicule. Putting aside the comparison between Qassam rockets and the terrorism that the U.S. and Israel are constantly carrying out, the argument has absolutely no credibility for a simple reason: Israel and the U.S. know exactly how to stop the rockets—by peaceful means. In June 2008, Israel agreed to a ceasefire with Hamas. Israel didn't really live up to it—they were supposed to open the borders and they didn't—but Hamas did live up to it. You can look it up on the official Israeli website or listen to their official spokesperson, Mark Regev, and they agree that during the ceasefire there wasn't a single Hamas rocket fired.

Israel broke the ceasefire in November 2008 when it invaded Gaza and killed half a dozen Hamas activists. Then there was some rocket fire and far greater attacks from Israel. A number of people were killed—all Palestinians. Hamas offered to renew the ceasefire. The Israeli cabinet considered it and rejected it, preferring to use violence. A couple of days later came the U.S./Israel attack on Gaza.

In the U.S. and the West generally, it is taken for granted, even by human rights groups and the Goldstone report, that Israel had the right to force and self-defense. There were criticisms that the attack was disproportionate, but they're a secondary matter as Israel had absolutely no right to use force in the first place. You have no justification for the use of force unless you've exhausted peaceful means. In this case, the U.S. and Israel had not just not exhausted them, they had refused even to try peaceful means, which they had every reason to believe would succeed. The concession that Israel had a right to attack is just an amazing gift.

In any case, according to the DOD and U.S. intelligence, Iran's efforts to extend its influence, as well as its support for Hezbollah and Hamas, are what constitute, for the U.S. and its allies, the Iranian threat.
Z
Noam Chomsky is Professor of Linguistics (Emeritus) at MIT and author of dozens of books on U.S. foreign policy.


Do you expect this to get you a date?confused
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Dec 22, 2010 3:40 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
bodleing
bodleingbodleingGreater Manchester, England UK238 Threads 8 Polls 13,810 Posts
Have you ever had the feeling your wasting your time.


playball
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Dec 22, 2010 3:43 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
bestbefore
bestbeforebestbeforesomewhere, Dorset, England UK116 Threads 2 Polls 4,701 Posts
bodleing: Have you ever had the feeling your wasting your time.


Methinks we have a C.S. Library being established.confused
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Dec 22, 2010 3:44 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Godsgift
GodsgiftGodsgiftEnnis, Clare Ireland251 Threads 13 Polls 10,040 Posts
bodleing: Have you ever had the feeling your wasting your time.


Just checked the profile: Either a fake or a secondary profile for convenience.Possibly one of the recently banned! You'd wonder why he doesn't join a political site with another few on here!conversing
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Dec 22, 2010 3:44 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Wow_Factor
Wow_FactorWow_FactorLondon, Greater London, England UK45 Threads 3,698 Posts
bestbefore: Methinks we have a C.S. Library being established.


frustrated I thought Lebanon was one of the banned countries for members of CS.
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Dec 22, 2010 3:45 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
bodleing
bodleingbodleingGreater Manchester, England UK238 Threads 8 Polls 13,810 Posts
Godsgift: Just checked the profile: Either a fake or a secondary profile for convenience.Possibly one of the recently banned! You'd wonder why he doesn't join a political site with another few on here!


I mean is anyone reading this stuff?


dunno
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Dec 22, 2010 4:13 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Blues63
Blues63Blues63Brisbane, Queensland Australia6 Threads 1 Polls 2,934 Posts
bodleing: I mean is anyone reading this stuff?


Not me. handshake
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Dec 22, 2010 4:20 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
bodleing
bodleingbodleingGreater Manchester, England UK238 Threads 8 Polls 13,810 Posts
Blues63: Not me.


Nor many others I suspect.

It's quite obvious the OP is trying to push his political views on people without taking part in any debate that may follow.

Not what the forums are about, in fact a form of flaming.
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Dec 22, 2010 4:27 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Medsummer
MedsummerMedsummerflopping around on the beach, Liguria Italy78 Threads 8 Polls 1,682 Posts
bodleing: I mean is anyone reading this stuff?


I actually read most of it to tell him what line to stand in.
His got to wait now in the other line until they find out if they can copy it like the copyshop in one of the Scandanavian countries did a while back. A guy wrote a book that took ten years, all on typed papers. When they went to copy it the guy behind the counter shredded it by mistake.
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Dec 22, 2010 5:09 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
RayfromUSA
RayfromUSARayfromUSAvienne, Rhone-Alpes France86 Threads 29 Polls 6,611 Posts
rozaroz: From a talk by Noam Chomsky, June 2010

What about Hamas?

Hamas became a serious threat—a serious terrorist organization—in January 2006 when Palestinians committed a really serious crime. That was the date of the first free election in any country in the Arab world and the Palestinians voted the wrong way. That's unacceptable to the U.S. Immediately, without a blink of an eye, the U.S. and Israel turned very publically towards punishing the Palestinians for that crime.


Funny thing is, Hamas is an Israeli creation. Hamas was the tool Israel used to allow them to accuse the Palestinians of being "radical Islamists"; which they aren't. The PLO was entirely secular.

Then came Hamas, with arms furnished by Israel. It's true the people of Gaza welcomed them. But that's understandable. The PLO had no weapons and couldn't protect them. Hamas was better armed and better funded (by Israel).

Israel sees to it that Hamas can launch a few of its harmless rockets into Jewish settlements. They do no damage, but they make for such good propaganda. And Israel gets away with massive genocidal attacks against the innocent civilian population of Gaza on the basis of what its Hamas stooges do.
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Dec 22, 2010 5:26 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
bollywood
bollywoodbollywoodTRIVANDRUM, Kerala India53 Threads 2 Polls 973 Posts
One more cut paste strategic analyis .......professor
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Dec 22, 2010 5:35 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Raynew1959
Raynew1959Raynew1959Barrington, New Hampshire USA120 Threads 2 Polls 2,218 Posts
The US has an empire? confused

That's news to me considering I have been living in the US my entire life.



Like Walter would say, "dumba**!"
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Dec 22, 2010 11:44 PM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
Godsgift: Do you expect this to get you a date?
I have seen worse subjects for a date. It is okay I think...
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Dec 23, 2010 2:18 AM CST The U.S. Empire, the Mideast, and the world, part 8
rozaroz
rozarozrozarozBeirut, Beyrouth Lebanon9 Threads 40 Posts
Happy New Year to everyone santa waving ..And thanks For The Commentshandshake
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