OMG USA (56)
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stringman: www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename...ayn_rand_aynrand...
I thought you were a Man of God?
Personally you shouldn't like Rand because of this. But further still, Rand attempts to unravel the commonality between Human Beings is a threat to the organic and natural component of the community - this is precisely what big government and do-gooders want; atomised individuals within communities that can't function together without their interference.
Rand's beliefs would so obviously deliver the opposite of what it claims on paper, the chaos that would ensue would certainly lead to a strongman taking the helm - like Stalin did with Bolshevism.
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Rumple4skin: I thought you were a Man of God?
Personally you shouldn't like Rand because of this. But further still, Rand attempts to unravel the commonality between Human Beings is a threat to the organic and natural component of the community - this is precisely what big government and do-gooders want; atomised individuals within communities that can't function together without their interference.
Rand's beliefs would so obviously deliver the opposite of what it claims on paper, the chaos that would ensue would certainly lead to a strongman taking the helm - like Stalin did with Bolshevism.
Personally you shouldn't like Rand because of this. But further still, Rand attempts to unravel the commonality between Human Beings is a threat to the organic and natural component of the community - this is precisely what big government and do-gooders want; atomised individuals within communities that can't function together without their interference.
Rand's beliefs would so obviously deliver the opposite of what it claims on paper, the chaos that would ensue would certainly lead to a strongman taking the helm - like Stalin did with Bolshevism.
Fascism, Libertarianisn and Marxism would all lead to the same place - dictatorship.
If I was forced to pick one the I'd pick Fascist, because at least here I would get a vote on who the dictator is. And within the Facist state their exists power bases that could potentially challenge the Dictator(such as the church, strong military and tyrsitional elite), under Marxism & Libertarianism the dictator would have sole authority.
But we don't need a revolution, we just need to study the right subjects, rediscover the old work ethic, compete with wisdom and discretion with other countries and curb the excess of the state's welfare system and bureaucracy. And cure our cancerous cultural & social values.
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Rumple4skin: I think for you to sit there, aged 60, on the internet on a laptop which uses electricity and to call this a ridiculous claim seems deeply ironic.
Ah yes, young man, I'm sixty
and you are twenty eight
I've looped the track a dozen times
and you're still at the gate
I must confess that at your age
I was a genius too
It took me years to understand
how little truth I knew
so do not be discouraged
by that egg upon your face
as your logic falls to pieces
and your theories are disgraced
just learn to think more clearly
for only if you do
will you survive and stay alive
till you reach sixty too
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RayfromUSA: Ah yes, young man, I'm sixty
and you are twenty eight
I've looped the track a dozen times
and you're still at the gate
I must confess that at your age
I was a genius too
It took me years to understand
how little truth I knew
so do not be discouraged
by that egg upon your face
as your logic falls to pieces
and your theories are disgraced
just learn to think more clearly
for only if you do
will you survive and stay alive
till you reach sixty too
and you are twenty eight
I've looped the track a dozen times
and you're still at the gate
I must confess that at your age
I was a genius too
It took me years to understand
how little truth I knew
so do not be discouraged
by that egg upon your face
as your logic falls to pieces
and your theories are disgraced
just learn to think more clearly
for only if you do
will you survive and stay alive
till you reach sixty too
I was merely pointing out to you that without it you wouldn't be able to do what you are doing now, or anything else for that matter.
Forgive me if this seems youthfully absurd.
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Conrad73: ... show me where Rand proposed a stateless, Government-less Society!
I agree that Rand didn't propose a stateless society. Actually what she proposed is backdoor totalitarian fascism. All of her heroes were big tycoon industrialists. Their right to rules was determined by their wealth. They were assumed to be more capable than others merely on the basis of their industrial achievements and holdings. They demanded the right to be entirely selfish with the wealth that they had acquired, no matter how they acquired it to start with. With no obligation to society.
That's nothing new. It's not some radical new enlightened libertarian outlook. It's the same old greedy coldness that has been the downfall of every society since the beginning of time.
Society is all about cohesiveness. And that takes a certain degree of being our brother's keeper. And, I think you will confess that Ayne Rand was totally devoid of any such sentiment. She said so herself many times.
Rand's idea of paradise is my idea of hell. A world in which everybody is seeking only their own personal advantage with zero regard for the interests of the poor around them.
That doesn't mean I'm a socialist. I don't think the state has any business redistributing wealth. But I do think that humans have a moral responsibility to help each other to a certain degree voluntarily. And Rand doesn't think so.
I feel sorry for Ayn Rand and for anyone who adopts her worldview.
They have cut out their own hearts.
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RayfromUSA: But I do think that humans have a moral responsibility to help each other to a certain degree voluntarily. And Rand doesn't think so.
A responsibility can not be voluntary. It either is your responsibility or it isn't.
But I generally agree with your view on Rand. The tycoons, or chief thereof, would form what is essentially the totalitarian private state, which would be just as greedy & ruthless, bureaucratic & cold as any Stalinist system.
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Rumple4skin: I was merely pointing out to you that without it you wouldn't be able to do what you are doing now, or anything else for that matter.
Forgive me if this seems youthfully absurd.
Forgive me if this seems youthfully absurd.
Youthful absurdity doesn't have to be forgiven.
It's a natural state we all pass through as adolescents and generally eventually fades over time.
If not, there's always ritalin.
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RayfromUSA: Youthful absurdity doesn't have to be forgiven.
It's a natural state we all pass through as adolescents and generally eventually fades over time.
If not, there's always ritalin.
It's a natural state we all pass through as adolescents and generally eventually fades over time.
If not, there's always ritalin.
You're not a bad person but I'm afriad to say you are a moron.
Good luck fighting the illuminati.
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Rumple4skin: A responsibility can not be voluntary. It either is your responsibility or it isn't.
But I generally agree with your view on Rand. The tycoons, or chief thereof, would form what is essentially the totalitarian private state, which would be just as greedy & ruthless, bureaucratic & cold as any Stalinist system.
But I generally agree with your view on Rand. The tycoons, or chief thereof, would form what is essentially the totalitarian private state, which would be just as greedy & ruthless, bureaucratic & cold as any Stalinist system.
Well Jesus seemed to suggest that social responsibility is a character asset that one can choose to either accept or reject.
The good Samaritan (Palestinian) was not legally bound to help the wounded Jewish man. He had no personal interest in doing so, and in fact even his ethnic group had no sense of responsibility towards the Jews. But, voluntarily, individually, the Samaritan decided to assume the responsibility to help him. Not out of obligation, but out of a sense of common humanity.
So, in my opinion, the only sort of social responsibility that is really worth the metaphorical paper its printed upon is precisely voluntary, individual, internalized, responsibility. Not enforced by the state, nor by any sort of religious authority, but enforced by an internal sense of being our brother's keeper.
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Rumple4skin: You're not a bad person but I'm afriad to say you are a moron.
Good luck fighting the illuminati.
Good luck fighting the illuminati.
Your freudian slip is showing.
Be "afriad", very "afriad",
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RayfromUSA: Well Jesus seemed to suggest that social responsibility is a character asset that one can choose to either accept or reject.
The good Samaritan (Palestinian) was not legally bound to help the wounded Jewish man. He had no personal interest in doing so, and in fact even his ethnic group had no sense of responsibility towards the Jews. But, voluntarily, individually, the Samaritan decided to assume the responsibility to help him. Not out of obligation, but out of a sense of common humanity.
So, in my opinion, the only sort of social responsibility that is really worth the metaphorical paper its printed upon is precisely voluntary, individual, internalized, responsibility. Not enforced by the state, nor by any sort of religious authority, but enforced by an internal sense of being our brother's keeper.
The good Samaritan (Palestinian) was not legally bound to help the wounded Jewish man. He had no personal interest in doing so, and in fact even his ethnic group had no sense of responsibility towards the Jews. But, voluntarily, individually, the Samaritan decided to assume the responsibility to help him. Not out of obligation, but out of a sense of common humanity.
So, in my opinion, the only sort of social responsibility that is really worth the metaphorical paper its printed upon is precisely voluntary, individual, internalized, responsibility. Not enforced by the state, nor by any sort of religious authority, but enforced by an internal sense of being our brother's keeper.
Yes, but you either do account yourself to society or you don't. And you either consider it to be a responsibility to help others or you don't. Any less is pity via fancy, or worse, pity via the public till.
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Is it safe in here? 
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Battle of the minds.
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Ccincy: Battle of the minds.
Oh.... This must be the most significant event in human history!
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This is the task of a government—of a proper government—its basic task, its only moral justification and the reason why men do need a government.
A government is the means of placing the retaliatory use of physical force under objective control—i.e., under objectively defined laws.
The only proper purpose of a government is to protect man’s rights, which means: to protect him from physical violence. A proper government is only a policeman, acting as an agent of man’s self-defense, and, as such, may resort to force only against those who start the use of force. The only proper functions of a government are: the police, to protect you from criminals; the army, to protect you from foreign invaders; and the courts, to protect your property and contracts from breach or fraud by others, to settle disputes by rational rules, according to objective law. But a government that initiates the employment of force against men who had forced no one, the employment of armed compulsion against disarmed victims, is a nightmare infernal machine designed to annihilate morality: such a government reverses its only moral purpose and switches from the role of protector to the role of man’s deadliest enemy, from the role of policeman to the role of a criminal vested with the right to the wielding of violence against victims deprived of the right of self-defense. Such a government substitutes for morality the following rule of social conduct: you may do whatever you please to your neighbor, provided your gang is bigger than his.
That's where she differs from most Libertarians who want a Society without Government,which,IMO just won't work!
But a Total Government also doesn't work!
No she suggests a government so small that it would have all the bargaining power of an African state dealing with a multi-national.
The 'free' market needs a state with some power to regulate over the economy, even traditional Capitalists like Smith would agree with me. But then Smith lived in a time when our culture was on the ascendencym when politics was generally more Right wing and therefore people understood the value and need for order.
Minarchy, at least this shows you have some brain cells. But I really don't think you appreciate the complexity of the World and how it works today, or how Human nature has always been.
And whilst Conservative Libertarians of my generation still oppose big government they are now recognising - through Feminism, the materially useless economy, debt, decadence and atomisation - that the 'freedom' of individuals is in many ways the cause of many of our problems; the recession is obviously shattering the fantasyland, perhaps my generation may very well be the first Western generation to 'mature' in over 60 years.