Obama Intent on Keeping His Word - Again (125)
gozoman2
While democracy cannot be imposed the conditions for it to take place where only repression exists can be.
As for 'domination of planetary fuel reserves' by calling it 'freeing a nation' could you provide some foundational information to support this. From what I know, freeing Iraq was not the stated reason but, was one of the side benefits of ousting Saddam and ensuring Iraq finally complied with the various ceasefire terms it had not even pretended to begin to comply with. As for oil, Iraq controls their oil and, provides the US with less of it than America received from Saddam prior to the action so, if you have information that can support your contention I should like to see it very much.
In response to: Democracy cannot be imposed. And the gravity of trying to legalize an act of aggression for the sake of domination of planetary fuel reserves by calling it 'freeing' a nation is perverse.
While democracy cannot be imposed the conditions for it to take place where only repression exists can be.
As for 'domination of planetary fuel reserves' by calling it 'freeing a nation' could you provide some foundational information to support this. From what I know, freeing Iraq was not the stated reason but, was one of the side benefits of ousting Saddam and ensuring Iraq finally complied with the various ceasefire terms it had not even pretended to begin to comply with. As for oil, Iraq controls their oil and, provides the US with less of it than America received from Saddam prior to the action so, if you have information that can support your contention I should like to see it very much.
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Drewski: gozoman2
While democracy cannot be imposed the conditions for it to take place where only repression exists can be.
As for 'domination of planetary fuel reserves' by calling it 'freeing a nation' could you provide some foundational information to support this. From what I know, freeing Iraq was not the stated reason but, was one of the side benefits of ousting Saddam and ensuring Iraq finally complied with the various ceasefire terms it had not even pretended to begin to comply with. As for oil, Iraq controls their oil and, provides the US with less of it than America received from Saddam prior to the action so, if you have information that can support your contention I should like to see it very much.
While democracy cannot be imposed the conditions for it to take place where only repression exists can be.
As for 'domination of planetary fuel reserves' by calling it 'freeing a nation' could you provide some foundational information to support this. From what I know, freeing Iraq was not the stated reason but, was one of the side benefits of ousting Saddam and ensuring Iraq finally complied with the various ceasefire terms it had not even pretended to begin to comply with. As for oil, Iraq controls their oil and, provides the US with less of it than America received from Saddam prior to the action so, if you have information that can support your contention I should like to see it very much.
I'm not too keen on cpnspiracy theories, but I have to agree that the oil conspiracy doesn't make economic sense.......... the USA has spent far more on it's invasion of Iraq than it would reap in oil benefits even if the Iraqis had zero benefit from the sale of their oil.
I'd go for a far more evil conspiracy (with my awesomely cynical and evil imagination) that would involve personal greed but also again makes zero economic sense; I'd go for an invasion based on giving my corporate friends nice juicy contracts for 'rebuilding' Iraq - in return for a small kickback, naturally.
You (the dude in power) pushes through expenditure of say USD 70 billion on Iraq - your 'friends' get contracts worth say USD 3 billion and they show their gratitude by donating a few million to you in appreciation via some devious route.
This makes much more sense than the oil conspiracy, but the truth is that we don't know the truth, and probably never will know the truth, and it's really quite similar to any religious thread where people BELIEVE they know all the answers but can't prove they are right and nobody can prove they are wrong!
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Rusty
So you sell out the most exalted position on earth to help friends. Friends who are childhood buddies that are so high up that the American people don't come into play so why the big expenditures to Africa for AIDS relief and such I wonder. And, now that )Obama is in charge and the US is supposedly leavbing in a few months, do the freinds still get what they want so, is the selling of the soul still a good deal or, is it possible, even in some corner of your mind, that this was actually as was stated? A strategic front on the war on terror, a positioning of US power outside of Saudi Arabis that could influence friends and threaten enemies?
Rusty
I think you and I will never get an admission as the truth is, from what I and many other intelligence services and think tanks believe, was a push to influence Saudi behavior towards Qutbist behavior within their Kingdom which without the threat of US poser outside the propaganda value of 'the crusaders are comming' meant that the US was able, and willing to take on terrorist activity (be it real or imagined be it in the oil feilds or towns) at will and thereby, with world opinoin and UN resolve threaten any part of Saudi territory.
If you think GW Bush was simply helping out a few buddies then you must feel that he is a most honorable man. I for one do not think he is a good guy at heart to tell the truth as a good guy would have done his duty and not shied away from Viet Nam.
In response to: You (the dude in power) pushes through expenditure of say USD 70 billion on Iraq - your 'friends' get contracts worth say USD 3 billion and they show their gratitude by donating a few million to you in appreciation via some devious route.
So you sell out the most exalted position on earth to help friends. Friends who are childhood buddies that are so high up that the American people don't come into play so why the big expenditures to Africa for AIDS relief and such I wonder. And, now that )Obama is in charge and the US is supposedly leavbing in a few months, do the freinds still get what they want so, is the selling of the soul still a good deal or, is it possible, even in some corner of your mind, that this was actually as was stated? A strategic front on the war on terror, a positioning of US power outside of Saudi Arabis that could influence friends and threaten enemies?
Rusty
In response to: This makes much more sense than the oil conspiracy, but the truth is that we don't know the truth, and probably never will know the truth, and it's really quite similar to any religious thread where people BELIEVE they know all the answers but can't prove they are right and nobody can prove they are wrong!
I think you and I will never get an admission as the truth is, from what I and many other intelligence services and think tanks believe, was a push to influence Saudi behavior towards Qutbist behavior within their Kingdom which without the threat of US poser outside the propaganda value of 'the crusaders are comming' meant that the US was able, and willing to take on terrorist activity (be it real or imagined be it in the oil feilds or towns) at will and thereby, with world opinoin and UN resolve threaten any part of Saudi territory.
If you think GW Bush was simply helping out a few buddies then you must feel that he is a most honorable man. I for one do not think he is a good guy at heart to tell the truth as a good guy would have done his duty and not shied away from Viet Nam.
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The recent word on the Iraqi withdrawal plan...is that the
White House now has 3 plans...one for 16 month....one for 19 month .....one for 23 months.
Maybe we can put the McCain plan (100 years) in the hat....and when the girl in the skimpy bathing suit.....reaches in to pull out the winner.... old John's will come out a winner.
President Obama say that he now intends to leave enough forces in Iraq to take on a resurgent AlQeada of Iraq. No mention of troop level....but in the past this has been estimated at 35-65K.
For comparison....out force level in South Korea is 37,500.
Looks like those foreign fighters that left for Afghanistan via Iran....if they come back to Iraq. Will find things a bit difficult.
And who says contingency planning for areas is not occurring?
The world got all in a dither...because under GWB some contingency planning for Iran was done by the Joint Chiefs. With a DEM Administration...vast planning is the norm....(e.g. big Gov't). doing planning of any and every event conceiveable. Those 300 foreign policy advisors have to do something.
Remember LBJ and the planning for Vet Nam? He had more plans than NASA had for the Apollo Lunar missions. Right down to the specific map coordinate of where ordinance was to fall. All from the White House.
My bet is with the force build up in Afghanistan coming. With the supply line pressures in Pakistan ocurring. With the Stan base closer...the White House military liason is taking banker boxes of plans from the White House to the Pentagon for the
Joint Chiefs. Poor guy had to go out and rent van to carry them all.
Worse is the poor Joint Chiefs that have to review them and give memo on them. Those guys are going need new glasses and large supply of eye drops by the time this Administration is over with.
White House now has 3 plans...one for 16 month....one for 19 month .....one for 23 months.
Maybe we can put the McCain plan (100 years) in the hat....and when the girl in the skimpy bathing suit.....reaches in to pull out the winner.... old John's will come out a winner.
President Obama say that he now intends to leave enough forces in Iraq to take on a resurgent AlQeada of Iraq. No mention of troop level....but in the past this has been estimated at 35-65K.
For comparison....out force level in South Korea is 37,500.
Looks like those foreign fighters that left for Afghanistan via Iran....if they come back to Iraq. Will find things a bit difficult.
And who says contingency planning for areas is not occurring?
The world got all in a dither...because under GWB some contingency planning for Iran was done by the Joint Chiefs. With a DEM Administration...vast planning is the norm....(e.g. big Gov't). doing planning of any and every event conceiveable. Those 300 foreign policy advisors have to do something.
Remember LBJ and the planning for Vet Nam? He had more plans than NASA had for the Apollo Lunar missions. Right down to the specific map coordinate of where ordinance was to fall. All from the White House.
My bet is with the force build up in Afghanistan coming. With the supply line pressures in Pakistan ocurring. With the Stan base closer...the White House military liason is taking banker boxes of plans from the White House to the Pentagon for the
Joint Chiefs. Poor guy had to go out and rent van to carry them all.
Worse is the poor Joint Chiefs that have to review them and give memo on them. Those guys are going need new glasses and large supply of eye drops by the time this Administration is over with.
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Within it, were periods of colonial imperialism embraced by various nations today part of the EU. The atrocities committed by European nations in their quest for dominion, are so vast and plentiful they are too many to name.
In the so called conference of Paris of 1885, it was agreed to split the African continent to reap the riches it contained. In the following twenty years, more then 90% of the land mass of the entire black continent was transferred to colonial rule by these nations.
And look at the mess that excise of extending civilization by imposition left behind.
My own country was subject to this dominance, and up until 1967, we were still a British Colony.
WE KNOW what imperialism=dominance means because we have it in our genes......we have lived it and come to smell it, feel it, and sense it in any form. And also thankfully, Europe has faced up to it's past....and in unison the voice is one......NEVER AGAIN.
With all the rhetoric, logical, legal or whatever form of argument anybody here can place, it is going to be extremely dificult for you to diffuse the impression that the modern day ideology presented by the US is one of utter dominance and imperialistic.
It lies on the same level of Communism.......the control of the many, by the few.
Dominance.
The US is not made up of the super race. The concept of freedom and democracy that were once the pillars on which the US was created have been corrupted.
The US cannot continue to impose it's method of doing things on the rest of the planet.
Democracy cannot be imposed. And the gravity of trying to legalize an act of aggression for the sake of domination of planetary fuel reserves by calling it 'freeing' a nation is perverse.