Is the Holy Land ,..Holy? ( Locked) (594)

Oct 11, 2010 2:47 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Settlement Freeze: An Unacceptable Veto
J. E. Dyer - 09.23.2010 - 5:31 PM

It has always been the case that Israel’s government would have to choose, at some point, to lift the freeze on settlement construction. The reason is simple: Israel can’t give anyone else an effective veto over settlement activities. Protecting settlements in Judea and Samaria is a matter of national security: it prevents the Palestinian Arabs from using the territory to menace Israelis across the Green Line. Past Israeli withdrawals from strategic or disputed territories have produced ever-present menaces along its other boundaries, as demonstrated in Gaza and the Hezbollah fiefdom in southern Lebanon. The West Bank, moreover, is an even more dangerous case from a geographic standpoint, because its mountainous heights look down on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv, the heart of Israel’s national and economic life.

In the absence of an enforceable, good-faith agreement with the Palestinian Authority, Israel can’t let either the PA or the U.S. exercise a de facto veto over its administration of the settlements. The right to such a veto, once established, would be wielded in incremental steps to prejudice Israel’s security and bargaining position. It would amount to much more than a minor concession in the interest of the current talks. Accepting a de facto settlement veto would open the door to a campaign of attrition against the settlements, just as it would validate the Palestinian negotiating principle of winning major and debilitating concessions as a prior condition of talks — and therefore without the Palestinians themselves having to commit to anything.

In light of this reality, the lament of Roger Cohen in the New York Times today is both ironic and poignant. If the talks break down over the settlement issue, says Cohen, “Netanyahu and Abbas know … Obama would look amateurish.” It would be a “terrible mistake,” in his view, for Netanyahu to reject a formal extension of the settlement freeze. He and Abbas both need the United States, which is “an incentive to avoid humiliating Obama.” Obama himself “should fight it until the last minute. His international credibility is on the line.”

But it’s Obama who put himself in this position. He and his foreign-policy team are amateurish; that’s the whole problem. Regardless of whether they agree with Israel’s view of the settlements and their relation to national security, they should have understood and acknowledged it as real. No negotiations can succeed if the concerns of one party are ignored or dismissed. For that party, accepting the breakdown of negotiations is likely to be the lesser of two evils.

Netanyahu must lift the settlement freeze sometime, and the longer he waits, the more of a political disruption it will be. He can’t let it become the status quo by default. He may yet find some way to navigate between two difficult positions, at least for another few weeks. But ultimately, his obligation is to the security of Israel. I believe that will be at least as much of a motive for him as retaining his coalition in the Knesset.

Obama’s credibility, meanwhile, is Obama’s problem. If he wants to see it undamaged, he could not do better than to learn from the present impasse and avoid backing himself into a corner again. Roger Cohen may think it’s a good idea to bolster Obama’s credibility with unilateral security concessions from Israel, but it’s a good bet Bibi doesn’t.

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Oct 11, 2010 2:51 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Beeseh: Boban's right, there's no money in peace. Plus they are occupants of a territory that used to belong to the Palestinians who lost their homes because of them and now live like refugees hoping one day they might get their homes back. Occupants never bring peace.
You got your numbers wrong!






The area designated as a Jewish state as over 75% desert; it had a population of 498,000 Jews and 325,000 Arabs. The proposed Arab state area had 807,000 Arab inhabitants and 10,000 Jewish inhabitants. The international trusteeship regime in Jerusalem would have a population of 100,000 Jews and 105,000 Arabs.

On November 29, 1947, the UN General Assembly, in its 128th plenary session, by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine jubilantly accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Not only were the West Bank and Gaza Strip not included, but also Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North and parts of the Negev desert in the South were excluded.

After the vote was announced, the six Arab delegations of Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen stormed out threatening war and the annihilation of the Palestinian Jews. Pakistan's delegation followed suit. The Arab national movement in Palestine, as well as all the Arab states, angrily rejected partition. They demanded the entire country for themselves and threatened to resist partition by force. Had they accepted the UN proposal in 1947, the independent Palestinian Arab state, covering an area much larger than Judea and Samaria (the West Bank) and Gaza, would have been created along with Israel. Instead, they rejected the plan and launched a war to destroy the nascent Jewish state.

There is more at the link!
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Oct 11, 2010 2:54 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Wow_Factor
Wow_FactorWow_FactorLondon, Greater London, England UK45 Threads 3,698 Posts
Here we are:

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Oct 11, 2010 3:40 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Albertaghost
AlbertaghostAlbertaghostCultural Wasteland, Alberta Canada76 Threads 5 Polls 5,914 Posts
Jadzia: Nope. Israel launched a preemptive strike against the Egyptian air force using heat seeking missiles, as the Egyptians had already started their planes' engines.


Strange. They intended Operation Focus to be timed while the Egyptian pilots were having breakfast rather than be waiting for the last second at a time of their enemies choosing. In any case, it was a preemptive strike as they were not attacked by the Arabs.

""Israel decided to pre-empt Egypt by attacking on the morning of June 5, 1967. The plan for Operation Focus had been evolving since about 1963, evidently based on an idea by former IAF commander Dan Tolkovski. It was elaborated and implemented by Israel Air Force Commander Moti Hod and Chief of Staff Yitzhak Rabin. Operation Focus ("Moked") was modeled on surprise air attacks of World War II, such as the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and the Luftwaffe attack on USSR air bases.

The plan of operation Focus proceeded in three waves. In the first wave, the planes were scheduled for precise staggered departure times (from 7:10 to 7:46 AM) and arrival over Egypt at about 8:15 when Egyptian pilots were eating breakfast. Most of the planes flew out over the Mediterranean and then headed into Egyptian territory, but others flew low along the Red Sea to hit bases in the Egyptian interior. ""

As I said before, the reason why they had to do it this way was simply because Israel as a nation which uses reserves could not maintain a war footing for lengthy periods of time so, it had to be short and sweet.



Jadzia:
The Israelis were still outnumbered and they were still attacked by 5 nations, not 1.


That's right. I stated nothing different.
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Oct 11, 2010 4:09 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Jadzia
JadziaJadziaThe Moon, New York USA1 Threads 1 Polls 21 Posts
Albertaghost: Strange. They intended Operation Focus to be timed while the Egyptian pilots were having breakfast rather than be waiting for the last second at a time of their enemies choosing. In any case, it was a preemptive strike as they were not attacked by the Arabs.


It appears you are correct about the attack taking place while the Egyptian pilots were eating breakfast. I don't know where I got the heat seeking missiles from.
However, a preemptive strike is a defensive strike by definition, so yes Israel was attacked.
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Oct 11, 2010 6:50 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Albertaghost
AlbertaghostAlbertaghostCultural Wasteland, Alberta Canada76 Threads 5 Polls 5,914 Posts
Jadzia: It appears you are correct about the attack taking place while the Egyptian pilots were eating breakfast. I don't know where I got the heat seeking missiles from.
However, a preemptive strike is a defensive strike by definition, so yes Israel was attacked.


rolling on the floor laughing That's debatable but, while Israel attacked first using it's military, the Arabs did force their hand by violating the ceasefire terms by cutting off Israel's access to the Red Sea as well as mobilizing their armies on Israel's borders. To me, that is an act of war to which any action is a defensive one.
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Oct 11, 2010 8:17 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
RayfromUSA
RayfromUSARayfromUSAvienne, Rhone-Alpes France86 Threads 29 Polls 6,611 Posts
Boban1: if Israel wasn`t holding the US by the nuts, we would have a completely different picture



The US has no nuts to hold anymore.
And that leave Israel without a sugar-daddy.
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Oct 11, 2010 11:59 PM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Albertaghost
AlbertaghostAlbertaghostCultural Wasteland, Alberta Canada76 Threads 5 Polls 5,914 Posts
RayfromUSA: The US has no nuts to hold anymore.
And that leave Israel without a sugar-daddy.


For a paltry five billion a year I am sure China or Russia would have no problems whatsoever filling the void and having stable carrier port space Ray. And, in order to counter their presence, the US would either have to blow a few hundred billion on finding new stable port space, proping up an unstable regime so they would be stable enough to trust and invest the hundreds of billions for same or, just build two new carrier groups to rotate through.

I personally think the US see the economic savings here. Funny that you don't. rolling on the floor laughing
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Oct 12, 2010 2:35 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?



The British had essentially withdrawn their troops. The situation pushed the leaders of the neighboring Arab states to intervene, but their preparation was not finalized, and they could not assemble forces capable of turning the tide of the war. The majority of Palestinian Arab hopes lay with the Arab Legion of Jordan's monarch, Abdullah I, but he had no intention of creating a Palestinian Arab-run state, instead hoping to annex as much of the territory of the British Mandate of Palestine as he could. He was playing a double game, being just as much in contact with the Jewish authorities as with the Arab League.[citation needed]

In preparation for the offensive, Haganah successfully launched Operations Yiftah and Ben Ami to secure the Jewish settlements of Galilee, and Operation Kilshon, which created a united front around Jerusalem.

Golda Meir and Abdullah I met on 10 May to discuss the situation, but the meeting was inconclusive and their former agreements were not confirmed. On 13 May, the Arab Legion, backed by irregulars, attacked and took Kfar Etzion, killing 127 of the 131 Jewish defenders and massacring the prisoners.
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Oct 12, 2010 2:58 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Conrad73: SB!
Thought you were Lost!
You sure hate that man,do you!
Told you,Abbas the Fool came to the Table Emptyhanded (Headed),but wants to set Conditions!
and your Post as usual doesn't make any sense!
Do you really think that the Israeli Leaders want eternal War?

If so,you're even more foolish than Abbas!doh
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Oct 12, 2010 2:58 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Medsummer
MedsummerMedsummerflopping around on the beach, Liguria Italy78 Threads 8 Polls 1,682 Posts
I think it is meant to refer to all the bullet holes...
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Oct 12, 2010 3:04 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin
sugamountinsugamountinalexandria, Virginia USA2 Threads 88 Posts
Chief Seattle, American Indian Chief from present day Washington State area of the United States sent a letter to the President. In this letter he explains the hypocracy of their offer. What follows is an excerpt of this speech. It presents a strange parellel to todays Israel and their audacity in their most recent "Peace"? negotiations.



Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume -- good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.
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Oct 12, 2010 3:04 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
Medsummer: I think it is meant to refer to all the bullet holes...
Wouldn't that be "Holey"?laugh
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Oct 12, 2010 3:06 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin: Chief Seattle, American Indian Chief from present day Washington State area of the United States sent a letter to the President. In this letter he explains the hypocracy of their offer. What follows is an excerpt of this speech. It presents a strange parellel to todays Israel and their audacity in their most recent "Peace"? negotiations.
Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume -- good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.



CRASH/BURN = SILVERBIRCH!


Why are you hiding behind this Profile?


MOSSAD?rolling on the floor laughing
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Oct 12, 2010 3:08 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin: Chief Seattle, American Indian Chief from present day Washington State area of the United States sent a letter to the President. In this letter he explains the hypocracy of their offer. What follows is an excerpt of this speech. It presents a strange parellel to todays Israel and their audacity in their most recent "Peace"? negotiations.
Yonder sky that has wept tears of compassion upon my people for centuries untold, and which to us appears changeless and eternal, may change. Today is fair. Tomorrow it may be overcast with clouds. My words are like the stars that never change. Whatever Seattle says, the great chief at Washington can rely upon with as much certainty as he can upon the return of the sun or the seasons. The white chief says that Big Chief at Washington sends us greetings of friendship and goodwill. This is kind of him for we know he has little need of our friendship in return. His people are many. They are like the grass that covers vast prairies. My people are few. They resemble the scattering trees of a storm-swept plain. The great, and I presume -- good, White Chief sends us word that he wishes to buy our land but is willing to allow us enough to live comfortably. This indeed appears just, even generous, for the Red Man no longer has rights that he need respect, and the offer may be wise, also, as we are no longer in need of an extensive country.
Hellbent to get to another Fifty Pages,hmmm?rolling on the floor laughing

I might even help you!
But with more relevant stuff!


Just ask!rolling on the floor laughing
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Oct 12, 2010 3:09 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin
sugamountinsugamountinalexandria, Virginia USA2 Threads 88 Posts
Conrad your just a bitter old bigot that hates everyone and everything. You've wasted your life away and now you are trying to take out your frustrations on others. Give it up and go away. Or better yet, just go away.
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Oct 12, 2010 3:13 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
From January onwards, operations became more militaristic, with the intervention into Palestine of a number of Arab Liberation Army regiments which divided up around the different coastal towns and reinforced Galilee and Samaria. Abd al-Qadir al-Husayni came from Egypt with several hundred men of the Army of the Holy War. At the time, military assessments were that the Palestinian Arabs were incapable of beating the Zionists.

Having recruited a few thousand volunteers, al-Husayni organized the blockade of the 100,000 Jewish residents of Jerusalem. To counter this, the Yishuv authorities tried to supply the city with convoys of up to 100 armoured vehicles, but the operation became more and more impractical, and more and more died in this process. By March, Al-Hussayni's tactic had paid off. Almost all of Haganah's armoured vehicles had been destroyed, the blockade remained in full operation, and hundreds of Haganah members who tried to bring supplies to the city had been killed. The situation for those in the Jewish settlements in the highly isolated Negev and northern Galilee was even more critical.

Since the Jewish population was under strict orders to hold their dominions at all costs, the insecurity across the country affected the Arab population more visibly. Up to 100,000 Palestinian Arabs, chiefly those from the upper classes, left the country to seek refuge abroad or in Samaria.

This situation caused the U.S. to retract its support for the partition plan, thus encouraging the Arab League to believe that the Palestinian Arabs, reinforced by the Arab Liberation Army, could put an end to the partition plan. The British, on the other hand, decided on 7 February 1948 to support the annexation of the Arab part of Palestine by Jordan.

Although a certain level of doubt took hold amongst Yishuv supporters, their apparent defeats were caused more by their wait-and-see policy than by weakness. Ben-Gurion reorganized the Haganah and made conscription obligatory. Every Jewish man and woman in the country had to receive military training. Funds were gathered by Golda Meir from sympathizers in the United States, and Joseph Stalin supported the Zionist cause at the time, so Jewish representatives of Palestine were able to sign very important armament contracts in the East. Other Haganah agents retrieved stockpiles from World War II, which helped equip the army further. Operation Balak allowed arms and other equipment to be transported for the first time by the end of March.

Ben-Gurion assigned Yigael Yadin the responsibility to come up with a plan in preparation for the announced intervention of the Arab states. The result of his analysis was Plan Dalet, which was put in place from the start of April onwards. The adoption of Plan Dalet marked the second stage of the war, in which Haganah passed from the defensive to the offensive.

The first operation, named Operation Nachshon, consisted of lifting the blockade on Jerusalem. Fifteen hundred men from the Haganah's Givati Brigade and the Palmach's Harel brigade went about clearing the route to the city between 5 and 20 April.
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Oct 12, 2010 3:14 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin: Conrad your just a bitter old bigot that hates everyone and everything. You've wasted your life away and now you are trying to take out your frustrations on others. Give it up and go away. Or better yet, just go away.
Listen who talking!rolling on the floor laughing
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Oct 12, 2010 3:17 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin
sugamountinsugamountinalexandria, Virginia USA2 Threads 88 Posts
Why don't you admit your jewish?
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Oct 12, 2010 3:21 AM CST Is the Holy Land ,..Holy?
sugamountin: Why don't you admit your jewish?
Because I am not!rolling on the floor laughing
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