A good and just god does not punish' ( Archived) (139)

Apr 2, 2013 8:52 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379
jac379jac379pontyclun, South Glamorgan, Wales UK25 Threads 3 Polls 12,293 Posts
Dadude62: Don't you know everyone is "born" deserving execution ? How Noah escaped that is a puzzle,,,. Maybe he accepted Christ,,, oh wait, that guy had not come around yet,,,

Yes, I remember only too well being told I was born evil and no matter what I did, I always would be and that I deserved to be punished always.

I was 6 years old when I was convinced that every hideous thing that ever happened was entirely my own fault. That was about the time I started wishing I were dead, but I also knew it was a sin to kill yourself, so I was in the hands of a god who drowned people when he was pissed off.

Eeek.
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Apr 2, 2013 9:09 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Maus19
Maus19Maus19Kilkenny, Ireland3 Threads 397 Posts
hoolet: ...his motives were for the good of mankind.
I think I'll drown my children next time they have a bath. They're a bunch of good for nothings, they'll never change.
Yes, I like to do good for mankind.
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Apr 2, 2013 9:20 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Dadude62
Dadude62Dadude62Elkton, Maryland USA1,120 Posts
jac379: Yes, I remember only too well being told I was born evil and no matter what I did, I always would be and that I deserved to be punished always.

I was 6 years old when I was convinced that every hideous thing that ever happened was entirely my own fault. That was about the time I started wishing I were dead, but I also knew it was a sin to kill yourself, so I was in the hands of a god who drowned people when he was pissed off.

Eeek.


Or condemns people for eternity.
Many of mankind are suffering from the spell (possession) of religion. Some have the courage to break away. That can take generations. I'm the product of an atheist (my father) who was afraid of God. He was not really an atheist I came to realize over the years. He was reacting against that terrible Ogre that religion purports to be God.
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Apr 2, 2013 9:22 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Dadude62
Dadude62Dadude62Elkton, Maryland USA1,120 Posts
Dadude62: Or condemns people for eternity.
Many of mankind are suffering from the spell (possession) of religion. Some have the courage to break away. That can take generations. I'm the product of an atheist (my father) who was afraid of God. He was not really an atheist I came to realize over the years. He was reacting against that terrible Ogre that religion purports to be God.



Slowly but surely mankind is waking up and realizing who the real devil is ,,,,,
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Apr 2, 2013 9:37 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
stringman
stringmanstringmanwallaceburg, Ontario Canada649 Threads 1 Polls 7,049 Posts
Original sin is known in two senses: the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendents. It is called "original" in that Adam, the first man, is the one who sinned and thus caused sin to enter the world. Even though Eve is the one who sinned first, because Adam is the Federal Head (representative of mankind), his fall included or represented all of humanity. Therefore, some hold that original sin includes the falling of all humanity. Some see original sin as Adam's fallen nature being passed to his descendents. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

Original sin is not a physical corruption, but a moral and spiritual corruption. It could be compared to the Reformed Doctrine of Total Depravity which states that sin has touched all parts of what a person is: heart, mind, soul, will, thoughts, desires, etc.

There has been much debate over the nature of the sin of Adam and how it affected mankind. Pelagius taught that Adam's sin influenced the human race only as a bad example and that all people are born in the same state as Adam was before his fall. Augustine taught that men inherit natural corruption from Adam.1

At the return of Christ and the resurrection of all Christians, the sin nature will be eradicated.

1. Harrison, Everett, ed., Baker's Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids: Baker Book Hous
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Apr 2, 2013 9:52 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Dadude62
Dadude62Dadude62Elkton, Maryland USA1,120 Posts
stringman: Original sin is known in two senses: the Fall of Adam as the "original" sin and the hereditary fallen nature and moral corruption that is passed down from Adam to his descendents. It is called "original" in that Adam, the first man, is the one who sinned and thus caused sin to enter the world. Even though Eve is the one who sinned first, because Adam is the Federal Head (representative of mankind), his fall included or represented all of humanity. Therefore, some hold that original sin includes the falling of all humanity. Some see original sin as Adam's fallen nature being passed to his descendents. "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned," (Rom. 5:12).

Original sin is not a physical corruption, but a moral and spiritual corruption. It could be compared to the Reformed Doctrine of Total Depravity which states that sin has touched all parts of what a person is: heart, mind, soul, will, thoughts, desires, etc.

There has been much debate over the nature of the sin of Adam and how it affected mankind. Pelagius taught that Adam's sin influenced the human race only as a bad example and that all people are born in the same state as Adam was before his fall. Augustine taught that men inherit natural corruption from Adam.1

At the return of Christ and the resurrection of all Christians, the sin nature will be eradicated.

1. Harrison, Everett, ed., Baker's Dictionary of Theology, Grand Rapids: Baker Book Hous


So babies are born with a spiritual and moral corruption worthy of execution ?
And mankind believes this because Augustine, the father of the real devil, the catholic church, taught this ?
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Apr 2, 2013 2:48 PM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379
jac379jac379pontyclun, South Glamorgan, Wales UK25 Threads 3 Polls 12,293 Posts
Dadude62: Slowly but surely mankind is waking up and realizing who the real devil is ,,,,,

I posted this the other day on another thread with the comment "Which one is the false god?":

Exodus 20:3-6 – Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
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Apr 2, 2013 3:40 PM CST A good and just god does not punish'
stringman
stringmanstringmanwallaceburg, Ontario Canada649 Threads 1 Polls 7,049 Posts
God is not the cause. it is man that is. god created mankind to live on this earth to take care of it and live in GOD's guide lines.just like a child who disobeys his parents he or she is punished.being a GOD who made all things i guess he has the last word whether we like it or not.
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Apr 2, 2013 5:10 PM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Maus19
Maus19Maus19Kilkenny, Ireland3 Threads 397 Posts
hoolet:
1. I repeat, he chose at that time to annihilate everone and everything and start afresh with the only person he found to be good. After the act he decided he would never do that again.

the good wee man, he learned his lesson
hoolet: 2. It´s not that HE couldn´t get it right..........it´s cos man can´t get it right in following his basic teachings. He wants us all to follow the good path.

Seems he did not learn a lesson, or is a little bit sick in the head. Making man that's not fit for his purpose.
Charlatans do that kind of trading. He should get kicked out of his builders guild. It gives those fancy pants a bad name.
hoolet: 3. He gave man free will and he wants each one of us to choose to walk in the light and avoid the darkness.

If you give free will, it's not up to you any more where people walk.
That's the whole point of being free. But if you tell people to go free and if you take a wrong(the one I want that you should not choose) turn, I screw you over, well, that's sick in the head.
Freedom, that's also freedom of choice.
hoolet: 4. Faith is faith.........it is not factual. There is a book called the bible which has been in existence for many years and relates historical facts as well as prophesies.

It for sure is not factual. Yes, I heard of that book, one of worlds most popular pieces of fiction.
hoolet: 5. If you would rather revere everything which is factual, you will never appreciate the spiritual side of life.
Nope, I don't and I do appreciate a spiritual side to life. But one thing for sure. Not with some psychopathic dictator for guidance. Then I rather stick to facts.
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Apr 2, 2013 6:01 PM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Glatlol
GlatlolGlatlolDublin, Ireland2 Threads 5,358 Posts
hoolet: Ok....ya want it step by step.
1. I repeat, he chose at that time to annihilate everone and everything and start afresh with the only person he found to be good. After the act he decided he would never do that again.

2. It´s not that HE couldn´t get it right..........it´s cos man can´t get it right in following his basic teachings. He wants us all to follow the good path.

3. He gave man free will and he wants each one of us to choose to walk in the light and avoid the darkness.

4. Faith is faith.........it is not factual. There is a book called the bible which has been in existence for many years and relates historical facts as well as prophesies.

5. If you would rather revere everything which is factual, you will never appreciate the spiritual side of life.



Brainwashing at its very best.
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Apr 2, 2013 8:07 PM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Dadude62
Dadude62Dadude62Elkton, Maryland USA1,120 Posts
stringman: God is not the cause. it is man that is. god created mankind to live on this earth to take care of it and live in GOD's guide lines.just like a child who disobeys his parents he or she is punished.being a GOD who made all things i guess he has the last word whether we like it or not.


Certainly there are consequences and benefits for our actions and behaviors. What I have an issue with is the concept of "eternal punishment". No one knows what comes after life, but religion purports to know, acting like it is God, and has been threatening and controlling mankind way too long with tactics like telling people from birth on that they are condemned unless they do and believe all kinds of crazy things that religion demands.
Mankind is slowly but surely wising up,, no longer do we have the tortures of the dark ages, the inquisitions, the burnings at the stake,,,,. We still have the psychological coercion, but like I said, people are waking up to the truth. A true spiritual awakening one might say.
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Apr 3, 2013 2:59 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Glatlol: Brainwashing at its very best.



So happy to have been brainwashed by the spirit of love and good will towards humanity.
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Apr 3, 2013 3:12 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379
jac379jac379pontyclun, South Glamorgan, Wales UK25 Threads 3 Polls 12,293 Posts
hoolet: So happy to have been brainwashed by the spirit of love and good will towards humanity.

But you don't appear to be moved by stories of genocide. confused

I'm not that good at unconditional love that I can revere a god purported to have committed that act. How does that mean I lack spirituality, or humanity in your opinion?
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Apr 3, 2013 3:21 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
Dadude62: Certainly there are consequences and benefits for our actions and behaviors. What I have an issue with is the concept of "eternal punishment". No one knows what comes after life, but religion purports to know, acting like it is God, and has been threatening and controlling mankind way too long with tactics like telling people from birth on that they are condemned unless they do and believe all kinds of crazy things that religion demands.
Mankind is slowly but surely wising up,, no longer do we have the tortures of the dark ages, the inquisitions, the burnings at the stake,,,,. We still have the psychological coercion, but like I said, people are waking up to the truth. A true spiritual awakening one might say.



Control is a major issue in human beings...........and animals. We were given some very good basic laws in the beginning, but, of course, not everyone choses to adhere to them.
God wants us to decide for ourselves to follow his path. The manner in which humans have interpreted his word as written in the bible or the Torah or the Qur´an differs within the sections of religion, but the main goal is the same....to approach God.
Nobody in contemporary society would approve of the tortures which were inflicted in the name of God during the middle ages, nor of the hidden abuses within the church, but as we are now more accountable to worldwide scrutiny, this is a wonderful opportunity to actively seek the love of God.
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Apr 3, 2013 3:28 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
tomcatwarne
tomcatwarnetomcatwarneOcean City, Plumouth, Devon, England UK289 Threads 7 Polls 17,106 Posts
Atheists are heavily concentrated in economically developed countries, particularly the social democracies of Europe (Barber, 2012). In underdeveloped countries, there are virtually no atheists. Atheism is thus a peculiarly modern phenomenon. Why do modern conditions produce atheism?
First, as to the distribution of atheism in the world, a clear pattern can be discerned. In sub-Saharan Africa there is almost no atheism (Zuckerman, 2007). Belief in God declines in more developed countries and is concentrated in Europe in countries such as Sweden (64% nonbelievers), Denmark (48%), France (44%) and Germany (42%). In contrast, the incidence of atheism in most sub-Saharan countries is below 1%.

The question of why economically developed countries turn to atheism has been batted around by anthropologists for about eighty years. Anthropologist James Fraser proposed that scientific prediction and control of nature supplants religion as a means of controlling uncertainty in our lives. This hunch is supported by data showing that the more educated countries have higher levels of non belief and there are strong correlations between atheism and intelligence (see my earlier post on this).
Atheists are more likely to be college-educated people who live in cities and they are highly concentrated in the social democracies of Europe. Atheism thus blossoms amid affluence where most people feel economically secure. But why?

It seems that people turn to religion as a salve for the difficulties and uncertainties of their lives. In social democracies, there is less fear and uncertainty about the future because social welfare programs provide a safety net and better health care means that fewer people can expect to die young. People who are less vulnerable to the hostile forces of nature feel more in control of their lives and less in need of religion.

In addition to being the opium of the people (as Karl Marx contemptuously phrased it), religion may also promote fertility, particularly by promoting marriage, according to copious data reviewed by Sanderson (2008). Large families are preferred in agricultural countries as a source of free labor. In developed "atheist" countries, women have exceptionally small families and do not need religion helping them to raise large families.

Even the psychological functions of religion face stiff competition today. In modern societies, when people experience psychological difficulties they turn to their doctor, psychologist, or psychiatrist. They want a scientific fix and prefer the real psychotropic medicines dished out by physicians to the metaphorical opiates offered by religion.

Moreover, sport psychologists find that sports spectatorship provides much the same kind of social, and spiritual, benefits as people obtain from church membership. In a previous post, I made the case that sports is replacing religion. Precisely the same argument can be made for other forms of entertainment with which spectators become deeply involved. Indeed, religion is striking back by trying to compete in popular media, such as televangelism and Christian rock and by hosting live secular entertainment in church.

The reasons that churches lose ground in developed countries can be summarized in market terms. First, with better science, and with government safety nets, and smaller families, there is less fear and uncertainty in people's daily lives and hence less of a market for religion. At the same time many alternative products are being offered, such as psychotropic medicines and electronic entertainment that have fewer strings attached and that do not require slavish conformity to unscientific beliefs.

References

Barber, N. (2012). Why atheism will replace religion: The triumph of earthly pleasures over pie in the sky. E-book, available at:
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Apr 3, 2013 3:31 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379: But you don't appear to be moved by stories of genocide.

I'm not that good at unconditional love that I can revere a god purported to have committed that act. How does that mean I lack spirituality, or humanity in your opinion?


Not MOVED by stories of genocide??????? Well, of course, I´m moved and sickened!!!! And if those who purported those acts, addressed their zeal towards love instead of hatred, these things would never happen. The negative issues in a person, i.e. hatred, revenge, anger, spite have to be squashed and the positives brought to the fore, i.e. love, understanding, tolerance, patience. Not saying it´s easy, but if you go looking for God it makes it easier.
I cannot judge if you are spiritual or humanitarian, if you have self-awareness you will know that yourself.
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Apr 3, 2013 3:31 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379: But you don't appear to be moved by stories of genocide.

I'm not that good at unconditional love that I can revere a god purported to have committed that act. How does that mean I lack spirituality, or humanity in your opinion?


Not MOVED by stories of genocide??????? Well, of course, I´m moved and sickened!!!! And if those who purported those acts, addressed their zeal towards love instead of hatred, these things would never happen. The negative issues in a person, i.e. hatred, revenge, anger, spite have to be squashed and the positives brought to the fore, i.e. love, understanding, tolerance, patience. Not saying it´s easy, but if you go looking for God it makes it easier.
I cannot judge if you are spiritual or humanitarian, if you have self-awareness you will know that yourself.
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Apr 3, 2013 4:12 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379
jac379jac379pontyclun, South Glamorgan, Wales UK25 Threads 3 Polls 12,293 Posts
hoolet: Not MOVED by stories of genocide??????? Well, of course, I´m moved and sickened!!!! And if those who purported those acts, addressed their zeal towards love instead of hatred, these things would never happen. The negative issues in a person, i.e. hatred, revenge, anger, spite have to be squashed and the positives brought to the fore, i.e. love, understanding, tolerance, patience. Not saying it´s easy, but if you go looking for God it makes it easier.
I cannot judge if you are spiritual or humanitarian, if you have self-awareness you will know that yourself.

Noah's Arc is a story of genocide, but you appear to revere the god who committed this act. You've yet to say how you rationalise this.
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Apr 3, 2013 4:25 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
tomcatwarne
tomcatwarnetomcatwarneOcean City, Plumouth, Devon, England UK289 Threads 7 Polls 17,106 Posts
So if you don't believe it is Gods will these things happen. Then why.

We assume divine intervention in human affairs.
Biblical rhetoric often implicitly assumes these intuitions. Take, for example, St. Paul's words: "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8, KJV). This idea of being "absent from the body" not only assumes dualism, but could not be believed without an established intuitive architecture for souls that can violate physical laws. The advantage of this type of rhetoric is that it does not have to present any real evidence because the only "evidence" required is the listener's own intuitions about souls and the continued existence of consciousness after death (whether these intuitions are correct or not is beside the point). Another clear instance of taking these intuitions for granted is Luke's crucifixion account: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, 'Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit': and having said thus, he gave up the ghost" (Luke 23:46, KJV). Like the outlandish dirt-drinking god imagined earlier, which would not survive cultural transmission because of our cognitive constraints, accounts like this would be unbelievable (and its attached rhetoric therefore ineffective) if not for the way in which the human mind perceives and conceives of the world. Since a person's mind or soul (or "spirit" and "ghost" here) is conceptualized as separate from the body, it is intuitively plausible for Jesus to command his spirit to go somewhere else, away from his body, at the time of death. That this is part of the core story of Christianity—and that there are millions upon millions of Christians in the world—testifies to the efficacy of this verbal and conceptual rhetoric.

As Kenneth Burke writes, "rhetoric is the art of persuasion, and religious cosmogonies are designed, in the last analysis, as exceptionally thoroughgoing modes of persuasion" (Burke, "Rhetoric" v). But that still leaves us with the question: "Why is religion persuasive"? Burke continues: "Theological doctrine is a body of spoken or written words. Whatever else it may be, and wholly regardless of whether it be true or false, theology is preeminently verbal" (vi). This paper set out to explore the relationship between rhetoric and religion with an emphasis that diverges somewhat from Burke's. Instead of focusing on the verbal rhetoric of religion (although that certainly remains a vital component), I have argued that the conceptual rhetoric of various religious ideas has a priori persuasiveness. The more specific question is thus: "Why are gods, souls, afterlives, and other components of religion highly credible to human beings even though they are objectively unverified?" The answer is that the intuitions and perceptions that human beings experience when sensing and conceiving of our environment, as well as the cultural rhetoric of religion, predispose us to believe in such things. These two aspects of religious concepts combine to make them particularly persuasive. Religious concepts are conceptually intuitive and rhetorically appealing because of preexisting cognitive biases in the evolved human mind.

References

Atran, Scott. In Gods We Trust: The Evolutionary Landscape of Religion. New York, NY: Oxford University Press, 2002.

Baron-Cohen, Simon, Alan M. Leslie, and Uta Frith. "Does the Autistic Child Have a Theory of Mind?" Cognition Vol. 21, No. 1 (October 1985): 37-46.

Barrett, Justin L. "Exploring the Natural Foundations of Religion."
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Apr 3, 2013 4:25 AM CST A good and just god does not punish'
jac379: Noah's Arc is a story of genocide, but you appear to revere the god who committed this act. You've yet to say how you rationalise this.



I thought I already had!!!!!!!!!! This was way way back, and man was behaving abysmally. He decided to start again with the only good person he could find, i.e. Noah. Why do I feel like I´m repeating myself???? Afterwards he promised he would never do it again and gave us the rainbow as a sign.
HE IS IN CHARGE..........he gives and he takes away...all lessons on life´s highway.
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