United Nations Resolution 181 - would you have voted for it if it were held now? (230)
Paldi5: You don't think Max has a point of view, that he just made it all up? Let me tell you something. A lot of people think like him, that Europe had no right to try to solve their "problem" and assuage their "holocaust guilt" by sending all their Jews off to live in a little enclave in the Middle East.
The Res 181 partition left the Jews with a clearly indefensible amount of land amidst as well as surrounded by "a lot" of people who objected to their presence big time and they knew it even though Golda said it was a land without people. It's not just Max.
In my opinion, more Jews should have stayed in Europe and made a go of it there. They knew the territory and had a large infrastructure they could have taken back. Their presence might have helped keep the Arabs out.
Bull,Paldi!The Res 181 partition left the Jews with a clearly indefensible amount of land amidst as well as surrounded by "a lot" of people who objected to their presence big time and they knew it even though Golda said it was a land without people. It's not just Max.
In my opinion, more Jews should have stayed in Europe and made a go of it there. They knew the territory and had a large infrastructure they could have taken back. Their presence might have helped keep the Arabs out.
They were stateless,and not welcome in most Countries,especially in Eastern Europe and Russia!
Crack a Book now and then on post-WWII European History!
Conrad73: really not surprising!
Can't stand a Selfconfident Jew,can you?
you arrogate to your self the Right to be different,yet deny it to Jews!
Quite telling,actually!
Can't stand a Selfconfident Jew,can you?
you arrogate to your self the Right to be different,yet deny it to Jews!
Quite telling,actually!
There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Some people have trouble with that line. People that get along well with "others" get it. Can I offer you another Iron Dome?
Paldi5: You don't think Max has a point of view, that he just made it all up? Let me tell you something. A lot of people think like him, that Europe had no right to try to solve their "problem" and assuage their "holocaust guilt" by sending all their Jews off to live in a little enclave in the Middle East.
The Res 181 partition left the Jews with a clearly indefensible amount of land amidst as well as surrounded by "a lot" of people who objected to their presence big time and they knew it even though Golda said it was a land without people. It's not just Max.
In my opinion, more Jews should have stayed in Europe and made a go of it there. They knew the territory and had a large infrastructure they could have taken back. Their presence might have helped keep the Arabs out.
The Res 181 partition left the Jews with a clearly indefensible amount of land amidst as well as surrounded by "a lot" of people who objected to their presence big time and they knew it even though Golda said it was a land without people. It's not just Max.
In my opinion, more Jews should have stayed in Europe and made a go of it there. They knew the territory and had a large infrastructure they could have taken back. Their presence might have helped keep the Arabs out.
I wasn't talking about his opinion of Israel, it's typical of his ethnicity. God, learn to read previous posts instead of wandering in and spruiking nonsense. If you took the time to read we were discussing Imperial history.
Paldi5: You don't think Max has a point of view, that he just made it all up? Let me tell you something. A lot of people think like him, that Europe had no right to try to solve their "problem" and assuage their "holocaust guilt" by sending all their Jews off to live in a little enclave in the Middle East.
The Res 181 partition left the Jews with a clearly indefensible amount of land amidst as well as surrounded by "a lot" of people who objected to their presence big time and they knew it even though Golda said it was a land without people. It's not just Max.
In my opinion, more Jews should have stayed in Europe and made a go of it there. They knew the territory and had a large infrastructure they could have taken back. Their presence might have helped keep the Arabs out.
The Res 181 partition left the Jews with a clearly indefensible amount of land amidst as well as surrounded by "a lot" of people who objected to their presence big time and they knew it even though Golda said it was a land without people. It's not just Max.
In my opinion, more Jews should have stayed in Europe and made a go of it there. They knew the territory and had a large infrastructure they could have taken back. Their presence might have helped keep the Arabs out.
Clearly indefensible
Get real Fred who won in '48 and who has won ever since....
Who has the real power to destroy and CHOOSES not to use it.
Fred make your mind up..
You really cannot hide your anti Jewish feelings for a minute.
Sad Fred just Sad.....
Paldi5: There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance. Some people have trouble with that line. People that get along well with "others" get it. Can I offer you another Iron Dome?
still like a crawling "JOO" do you Paldi? Conrad73: Bull,Paldi!
They were stateless,and not welcome in most Countries,especially in Eastern Europe and Russia!
Crack a Book now and then on post-WWII European History!
They were stateless,and not welcome in most Countries,especially in Eastern Europe and Russia!
Crack a Book now and then on post-WWII European History!
Paldi5: I don't believe in theocratic states and that includes Islamic. I still have hopes that Iran will become more democratic and secular though they have lately had a setback, and hope Turkey will improve in that regard. Both countries have ancient histories... democraccy is a big step.
A lot of Paldis are Jewish. Do they persecute themselves? Your insuinuation that I do is rubbish. I don't persecute anything except mice, rats, ants and weeda in my garden. I don't even hunt or fish any more. LOL nice try. I think you're going off topic.
actually you are NOT a Paldi!A lot of Paldis are Jewish. Do they persecute themselves? Your insuinuation that I do is rubbish. I don't persecute anything except mice, rats, ants and weeda in my garden. I don't even hunt or fish any more. LOL nice try. I think you're going off topic.
And the >Moses were originally French!
Conrad73: Bull,Paldi!
They were stateless,and not welcome in most Countries,especially in Eastern Europe and Russia!
Crack a Book now and then on post-WWII European History!
They were stateless,and not welcome in most Countries,especially in Eastern Europe and Russia!
Crack a Book now and then on post-WWII European History!
East Prussia would have been fine as a place to start. Close to Russia Eastern Europe and Germany, and would have given some light behind what was to become the iron curtain. Instead they gave the enclave to Russia.
Paldi5: East Prussia would have been fine as a place to start. Close to Russia Eastern Europe and Germany, and would have given some light behind what was to become the iron curtain. Instead they gave the enclave to Russia.
crack a Book!Conrad73: actually you are NOT a Paldi!
And the >Moses were originally French!
And the >Moses were originally French!
French? Oui! I'm French! Wanna buy a tower?
Heck I would repay the Moslem countries that have keep the world in crisis for the last 60 years over the two state solution if UN 181
came up for a vote today.
First I would abstain.....then I vote against it.....then I vote for it......then when they asked me which I really want to vote for.....I would say......the one you like least.
One must find humor where he can....
came up for a vote today.
First I would abstain.....then I vote against it.....then I vote for it......then when they asked me which I really want to vote for.....I would say......the one you like least.
One must find humor where he can....
"the Moslem countries that have keep the world in crisis for the last 60 years" 
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
gininitaly: "the Moslem countries that have keep the world in crisis for the last 60 years"
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
CAN'T SEE any of that in Syria, Yemen, Egypt, Bahrain, Morrocco or Jordan not forgetting Indonesia, Pakistan and a few other Stans .....
If only the poor folk in these countries could have peace and a fair government (well as fair as you get nowadays)...
gininitaly: "the Moslem countries that have keep the world in crisis for the last 60 years"
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
Lost your sense of humor Gininitaly, I see?
But what I said there is true. It started with Assad, Nasser and Arafat. That instead of negotiating with Israel in good faith for peace over the Moslem lands lost in the early wars. Refused to talk to Israel. Nasser did exactly that when he hardened the Arab League against Isreal, Giniitaly.
Then in the mid period of the conflict. Arafat and Assad and eventually Iran and Iraq both became either terrorist supporting or terrorist themselves. Know that Israel would not negotiate with terrorist. Another block to negotiations.
Finally you have the trivial issue of a few hectrarce of land in Jerasulem were the Israeli have built. When all of Islam has millions of hectarces of land available for settlement of the Palestines. But just those few acres just have to the one that they have to have.
Again a block to negotiations.
So? The way I see it.....with the admission that Israeli occupation wars in Lebanon and Gaza also blocks to negotiations on peace. Muslim have strung and blocked the two state solution out for 60 years since it was first proposed by the LBJ administration.
gininitaly: "the Moslem countries that have keep the world in crisis for the last 60 years"
Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
actually they did!Oh you mean trying to hang on to what is theirs, while being assaulted by everything that is ours?
Suez,etc!
attacked Israel,1948,'56,'67,'73!
Iranian Proxies like HAMAS,and Hezbollah!
Albertaghost: Would you deny Muslims statehood just to deny Jewish people theirs?
""The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan to replace the British Mandate for Palestine with "Independent Arab and Jewish States" and a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" administered by the United Nations. On 29 November 1947 the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181.
Under the plan, the Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw from Palestine no later than the previously announced date of 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements: Jewish nationalism (Zionism) and Arab nationalism. The plan included a detailed description of the recommended boundaries for each proposed state. The plan also called for an economic union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.
The proposed plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency. The plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League.
Under the plan, a transitional period under United Nations auspices was to begin with the adoption of the resolution, and last until the establishment of the two states. Immediately after UN adoption of the Resolution, the Civil War broke out. The partition plan was not implemented.
In 2011, Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas stated that the Arab rejection of the partition plan was a mistake he hoped to rectify.""
""The United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was a plan to replace the British Mandate for Palestine with "Independent Arab and Jewish States" and a "Special International Regime for the City of Jerusalem" administered by the United Nations. On 29 November 1947 the General Assembly adopted a resolution recommending the adoption and implementation of the Plan of Partition with Economic Union as Resolution 181.
Under the plan, the Mandate would be terminated as soon as possible and the United Kingdom would withdraw from Palestine no later than the previously announced date of 1 August 1948. The new states would come into existence two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The plan sought to address the conflicting objectives and claims of two competing movements: Jewish nationalism (Zionism) and Arab nationalism. The plan included a detailed description of the recommended boundaries for each proposed state. The plan also called for an economic union between the proposed states, and for the protection of religious and minority rights.
The proposed plan was accepted by the leaders of the Jewish community in Palestine, through the Jewish Agency. The plan was rejected by leaders of the Arab community, including the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, who were supported in their rejection by the states of the Arab League.
Under the plan, a transitional period under United Nations auspices was to begin with the adoption of the resolution, and last until the establishment of the two states. Immediately after UN adoption of the Resolution, the Civil War broke out. The partition plan was not implemented.
In 2011, Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas stated that the Arab rejection of the partition plan was a mistake he hoped to rectify.""
The UN should have stopped the civil war and gone ahead with the partition, as planned and approved, much as they are attempting to stop the fighting now in Syria. Given that there were no Security Council vetoes of Res 181 that should have been possible and the proper thing to do. IMHO
Paldi5:
A lot of Paldis are Jewish. Do they persecute themselves? Your insuinuation that I do is rubbish. I don't persecute anything except mice, rats, ants and weeda in my garden. I don't even hunt or fish any more. LOL nice try. I think you're going off topic.
A lot of Paldis are Jewish. Do they persecute themselves? Your insuinuation that I do is rubbish. I don't persecute anything except mice, rats, ants and weeda in my garden. I don't even hunt or fish any more. LOL nice try. I think you're going off topic.
You continually referred to the girl of yours as a 'Jew Harp' and your insistence of saying 'Jude' for no reason at all gives you away dead to rights.
Paldi5: East Prussia would have been fine as a place to start. Close to Russia Eastern Europe and Germany, and would have given some light behind what was to become the iron curtain. Instead they gave the enclave to Russia.
Well that would take care of the Jews from that region but what about the ones from where Israel is now and the ones from surrounding countries that were expelled?
Sides, there was no partition of Prussia for Jews and Palestinians, it only happened in the British Palestine Mandate.
Paldi5: I think you're going off topic.
Actually you are as we were not talking about ants and fish but rather both sides of a problem. One in which you only complain about one side so, please stay on topic and address both sides in order to partake in the discussion.
Albertaghost: Well that would take care of the Jews from that region but what about the ones from where Israel is now and the ones from surrounding countries that were expelled?
Sides, there was no partition of Prussia for Jews and Palestinians, it only happened in the British Palestine Mandate.
Sides, there was no partition of Prussia for Jews and Palestinians, it only happened in the British Palestine Mandate.
I agree, their place is in the Middle East.
Of course, the Jews would likely not have been expelled from those Arab lands if Israel hadn't pushed out the Arabs during the Civil War and the follow on hostilities. As I understand it, those refugees were evicted in retaliation for the Arabs being forced or otherwise encouraged to flee and go live in refugee camps.
Albertaghost: Actually you are as we were not talking about ants and fish but rather both sides of a problem. One in which you only complain about one side so, please stay on topic and address both sides in order to partake in the discussion.
I think my posts are pretty balanced, if you please. Now let me get back to persecuting my weeds.
I like fish... I've never persecuted a fish but I admit to torturing a lobster once, but it was already dead, honest! Stop twisting my words. LOL
Albertaghost: You continually referred to the girl of yours as a 'Jew Harp' and your insistence of saying 'Jude' for no reason at all gives you away dead to rights.
She is Jewish from her mother's side of the family... German Jew. Her dad was a Catholic fro Slovakia. She plays the harp professionally. I never called her a Jew Harp. I said she owns 14 harps, one of which is a jew harp.
Jude is a Palistinian infant named in honor of the Jewish family who attended her birth and removed the umbilical cord that was choking the life out of her. I thought it was a fitting tribute for her parents to name her "Jude." It is a story of hope and two peoples living together in peace. Go google it if you don't believe me.
Spoken like a good Buddhist/Taoist, from Canada no less. :)
Expert: 'Settlements' Are Legal, Look at the UN Documents
Former ambassador Dr. Meir Rosenne: The Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are legal. International law says this.
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 4/5/2012, 1:16 AM
Dr. Meir Rosenne, former Israeli ambassador to the United States and France, said on Wednesday that the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are legal and that this is true under international law.
Rosenne spoke to Arutz Sheva a day after the prosecutor for the International Criminal Court in The Hague rejected a complaint filed by the Palestinian Authority against Israel for alleged war crimes during "Operation Cast Lead" in Gaza in 2009.
The prosecutor explained that only states can file a complaint with the International Criminal Court, noting that the PA is only an observer at the United Nations and not a member state.
Dr. Rosenne noted that “the PA is not a country. It has a Palestinian Authority and Hamas which controls Gaza but they have no country. All UN documents dealing with Resolution 242 do not mention the word Palestinian.”
He added that although some people may not be aware of this, under international law the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria have full legal status.
“American jurists such as former ICJ President Stephen Schwebel have said that Israel has more rights to Judea and Samaria,” said Rosenne. “Any legal expert who looks at the UN documents will see that there is no such concept as the West Bank or the occupied territories, but rather Judea and Samaria. That is the terminology that appears in the most official documents.”
Dr. Rosenne added that according to the Geneva Convention, all the Jewish communities are legal, saying, “Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention says that an occupying power cannot forcibly move citizens to occupied territory. This was true during World War II when the Germans forcefully moved German citizens to occupied Polish territories. In our case, Israel never occupied Judea and Samaria. Judea and Samaria is an area that has never belonged to another country. Jordanian occupation was never recognized, just as the Egyptian occupation of Gaza was not recognized. The fate of these areas should be determined by negotiations among the parties. The settlers never forcibly entered anywhere, nor were they moved there, so they are perfectly legal.”
He also noted that, according to the Geneva Convention, terrorists imprisoned in Israel should not be considered prisoners of war.
“The Geneva Convention states that a prisoner of war is a man who openly carried weapons and wore uniforms and respected the laws of war,” said Rosenne. “The terrorists do not carry arms openly, they do not have uniforms and they do not respect the laws of war when they kill children. They are not party to the conflict because no Arab state has adopted them. Nevertheless, Israel allows every terrorist to meet with an attorney.”
Conrad73: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/154517
Expert: 'Settlements' Are Legal, Look at the UN Documents
Former ambassador Dr. Meir Rosenne: The Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are legal. International law says this.
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 4/5/2012, 1:16 AM
Dr. Meir Rosenne, former Israeli ambassador to the United States and France, said on Wednesday that the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are legal and that this is true under international law.
Rosenne spoke to Arutz Sheva a day after the prosecutor for the International Criminal Court in The Hague rejected a complaint filed by the Palestinian Authority against Israel for alleged war crimes during "Operation Cast Lead" in Gaza in 2009.
The prosecutor explained that only states can file a complaint with the International Criminal Court, noting that the PA is only an observer at the United Nations and not a member state.
Dr. Rosenne noted that “the PA is not a country. It has a Palestinian Authority and Hamas which controls Gaza but they have no country. All UN documents dealing with Resolution 242 do not mention the word Palestinian.”
He added that although some people may not be aware of this, under international law the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria have full legal status.
“American jurists such as former ICJ President Stephen Schwebel have said that Israel has more rights to Judea and Samaria,” said Rosenne. “Any legal expert who looks at the UN documents will see that there is no such concept as the West Bank or the occupied territories, but rather Judea and Samaria. That is the terminology that appears in the most official documents.”
Dr. Rosenne added that according to the Geneva Convention, all the Jewish communities are legal, saying, “Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention says that an occupying power cannot forcibly move citizens to occupied territory. This was true during World War II when the Germans forcefully moved German citizens to occupied Polish territories. In our case, Israel never occupied Judea and Samaria. Judea and Samaria is an area that has never belonged to another country. Jordanian occupation was never recognized, just as the Egyptian occupation of Gaza was not recognized. The fate of these areas should be determined by negotiations among the parties. The settlers never forcibly entered anywhere, nor were they moved there, so they are perfectly legal.”
He also noted that, according to the Geneva Convention, terrorists imprisoned in Israel should not be considered prisoners of war.
“The Geneva Convention states that a prisoner of war is a man who openly carried weapons and wore uniforms and respected the laws of war,” said Rosenne. “The terrorists do not carry arms openly, they do not have uniforms and they do not respect the laws of war when they kill children. They are not party to the conflict because no Arab state has adopted them. Nevertheless, Israel allows every terrorist to meet with an attorney.”
Expert: 'Settlements' Are Legal, Look at the UN Documents
Former ambassador Dr. Meir Rosenne: The Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are legal. International law says this.
By Elad Benari
First Publish: 4/5/2012, 1:16 AM
Dr. Meir Rosenne, former Israeli ambassador to the United States and France, said on Wednesday that the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria are legal and that this is true under international law.
Rosenne spoke to Arutz Sheva a day after the prosecutor for the International Criminal Court in The Hague rejected a complaint filed by the Palestinian Authority against Israel for alleged war crimes during "Operation Cast Lead" in Gaza in 2009.
The prosecutor explained that only states can file a complaint with the International Criminal Court, noting that the PA is only an observer at the United Nations and not a member state.
Dr. Rosenne noted that “the PA is not a country. It has a Palestinian Authority and Hamas which controls Gaza but they have no country. All UN documents dealing with Resolution 242 do not mention the word Palestinian.”
He added that although some people may not be aware of this, under international law the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria have full legal status.
“American jurists such as former ICJ President Stephen Schwebel have said that Israel has more rights to Judea and Samaria,” said Rosenne. “Any legal expert who looks at the UN documents will see that there is no such concept as the West Bank or the occupied territories, but rather Judea and Samaria. That is the terminology that appears in the most official documents.”
Dr. Rosenne added that according to the Geneva Convention, all the Jewish communities are legal, saying, “Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention says that an occupying power cannot forcibly move citizens to occupied territory. This was true during World War II when the Germans forcefully moved German citizens to occupied Polish territories. In our case, Israel never occupied Judea and Samaria. Judea and Samaria is an area that has never belonged to another country. Jordanian occupation was never recognized, just as the Egyptian occupation of Gaza was not recognized. The fate of these areas should be determined by negotiations among the parties. The settlers never forcibly entered anywhere, nor were they moved there, so they are perfectly legal.”
He also noted that, according to the Geneva Convention, terrorists imprisoned in Israel should not be considered prisoners of war.
“The Geneva Convention states that a prisoner of war is a man who openly carried weapons and wore uniforms and respected the laws of war,” said Rosenne. “The terrorists do not carry arms openly, they do not have uniforms and they do not respect the laws of war when they kill children. They are not party to the conflict because no Arab state has adopted them. Nevertheless, Israel allows every terrorist to meet with an attorney.”
ooby_dooby: IMO the UN has proven itself to be a bunch of bunglers with the way they have screwed up the creation of Israel while leaving Palestine hanging in limbo for 65 years. It's outrageous. They did a really sloppy job with India & Pakistan too which came very close to erupting into a nuclear war by leaving Kashmire unresolved.
The world placed a lot of trust in the UN at the beginning but it may have been better if they were required to earn that trust instead of just inheriting it.
Unfortunately Res 181 was never implemented therefore we still don't know if it would work. I would have voted FOR it still. Palestine absolutely deserves its own state.
The world placed a lot of trust in the UN at the beginning but it may have been better if they were required to earn that trust instead of just inheriting it.
Unfortunately Res 181 was never implemented therefore we still don't know if it would work. I would have voted FOR it still. Palestine absolutely deserves its own state.
That's basically my view as well. Lesson: Brits are just not very good at administering things long term
Paldi5: I agree, sadly Israel seems to need enemies and goes out of their way to create them or provoke them to fury (Hamas, Iraq, Turkey and now Iran) so they have a pretext to justify their expansionist activities.
Everybody knows the land allotted in the 1948 Partition Plan was fine and generous for those Jews already living there and even some portion of those living in the camps in Europe but too small for Israeli's greater needs in the future.
They wanted war to break out, they prayed for it, they were jubilent about the opportunity presented by the 1948 civil war to take Jerusalem and anything else they could grab.
There is still land lust...
If they can, at least a third of the Sinai will be retaken soon, probably all of it. Then the Latani will be retaken in the next serious flare-up with Lebanon. All of the so-called West Bank will be annexed and Gaza too. Just a matter of time and pretext. Iran is in the way and must be neutralized soon... sigh
crack a Book Man,read some News!Everybody knows the land allotted in the 1948 Partition Plan was fine and generous for those Jews already living there and even some portion of those living in the camps in Europe but too small for Israeli's greater needs in the future.
They wanted war to break out, they prayed for it, they were jubilent about the opportunity presented by the 1948 civil war to take Jerusalem and anything else they could grab.
There is still land lust...
If they can, at least a third of the Sinai will be retaken soon, probably all of it. Then the Latani will be retaken in the next serious flare-up with Lebanon. All of the so-called West Bank will be annexed and Gaza too. Just a matter of time and pretext. Iran is in the way and must be neutralized soon... sigh
Conrad73: crack a Book Man,read some News!
You gotta love the way he rewrites history. I mean '48 as a civil war....LMAO...Fred you really do dream at times, check your statement about Jerusalem at that time....Total and complete Fabrication of facts....
But we all know facts for you are meant to be ignored and twisted to suit....
Historical facts Fred are so clear and your twisting of them is so similar.
Sad Fred Sad...
Scubadiva: That's basically my view as well. Lesson: Brits are just not very good at administering things long term
Haven't done so badly so far with the Commonwealth.Must be doing something right as there are lots of countries still in it.
The U.N. is not Britain,it's the World.
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And now a Presbyterian.....When does Bhudda come into it?
Fred you do cover all the angles...
I don't do Bhudda and I don't like the cold much either... which is probably why I learned Spanish instead of Gaelic, German or French.