Do you think the recession was engineered? (157)
check_mate: Are you sure about that? I can think about some British bankers sentenced for fraud which is the same thing as robbing
how many?
never heard...
nor in italy....
MeantimeinBali: Thanks for sharing your long comment "recession in a nutshell" brilliant!
You're welcome.
By the way I also lived in Indonesia for a year, in Jakarta, Surabaya, and Bandung with extended visits in Sumatra and Bali. Great fond memories.
Conrad73: Think GREEN,Ray,think GREEN!
As in Soylent?
Rumple4skin: No, nobody has that kind of control over the markets and no one quite knows what's going to happen.
Which isn't to say we don't deserve to be in this recession, we absolutely do, only that there are practical and realistic reasons - which are common to the average citizen - as to why we are in so much debt and why the economy is so imbalanced.
Which isn't to say we don't deserve to be in this recession, we absolutely do, only that there are practical and realistic reasons - which are common to the average citizen - as to why we are in so much debt and why the economy is so imbalanced.
You can't be serious Rumple... you of all people should know better? All the markets are manipulated.
It was manipulated to our own governments advantage.
Oblivion1000: I do
Every recession is engineered
L_B76: how many?
never heard...
nor in italy....
never heard...
nor in italy....
Enron is one, 3 British bankers sentenced, can't comment on Italy
Rumple4skin: My theory is that the majority of people who believe the recession is a conspiracy are the people that are themselves responsible for it.
Those at the planning level don't have to "believe" anything.
They know for a fact that it's a conspiracy.
Also those who deduce logically that it's a conspiracy don't have to "believe" anything.
"Belief" is for the clueless.
And it's based on their own personal interests not evidence.
As Mister Bougaloo sang in The Apple.
They're so eager to believe
and so easy to deceive
like a baby watching magic
they're so gullible it's tragic
In a word they're naive
check_mate: Enron is one, 3 British bankers sentenced, can't comment on Italy
in italy like 12 14 have been and are under investigation...
NONE in jail....
1 business man..which have a believe a good participation in 1 bank...
"The Parmalat owner" have been sentences for fraud and go to jail..
after less than 1 year got out due to health problems...incompatibility with jail life
gininitaly: You can't be serious Rumple... you of all people should know better? All the markets are manipulated.
Manipulation is not control in the magnitude of global conspiracy. Manipulation is usually done by a party seeking to extract a short-term profit by manipulating the system - such as the Libor scandal.
This is something different than to say the recession is engineered. This is the difference between corruption and conspiracy.
RayfromUSA: Those at the planning level don't have to "believe" anything.
They know for a fact that it's a conspiracy.
Also those who deduce logically that it's a conspiracy don't have to "believe" anything.
"Belief" is for the clueless.
And it's based on their own personal interests not evidence.
As Mister Bougaloo sang in The Apple.
They're so eager to believe
and so easy to deceive
like a baby watching magic
they're so gullible it's tragic
In a word they're naive
They know for a fact that it's a conspiracy.
Also those who deduce logically that it's a conspiracy don't have to "believe" anything.
"Belief" is for the clueless.
And it's based on their own personal interests not evidence.
As Mister Bougaloo sang in The Apple.
They're so eager to believe
and so easy to deceive
like a baby watching magic
they're so gullible it's tragic
In a word they're naive
You miss the point that people behind our sham economy actually believed it would work - and there's no evidence to suggest conspiracy over incompetence.
And as far as the average citizen of the last few decades is concerned they actually believed it would work, too. People have been wilfully ignorant enough to think you can live in a country that makes nothing and still survive, they believe that they can contribute nothing and still deserve to survive.
So to live like Kings for decades only to then cry victim when the gravy train is over is highly symbolic of the very selfish attitudes and lack of accountability, in everyday people, that has caused/allowed this mess to happen.
RayfromUSA: That quote problem started after they changed the software about a year ago.
Yeah I remembered it after I did it... haven't been around much in awhile.
It also crossed my mind the 2008 etc recession cycle just happened to coincide with the boomers moving into retirement with a lifetimes nest egg to pillage... how handy was that ay?
Did you see this video on John Wolfensohn, a former head of the World Bank? Ignore the goofiness and just listen to what he says. For anyone to underestimate their projections and our subsequent manipulations by global bankers is naive. The west is obsolete... only the bankers will survive, they have no country other than their bottom lines to be loyal to or care about. We're screwed.
gininitaly: That was manipulated as well. Media monopolies fed debt propaganda like the plague through every TV and mail box in the west. But I see you like to blame instead of doing your research.
No, I just believe that those of adult mental age are ultimately accountable for themselves.
I believe that if my Grandad's war generation had been alive they wouldn't have been anywhere near as susceptible to a life lived through debt.. this point highlights another deficiency in modern intellect - the fixation upon events and the incapacity to appreciate the Human raw material beneath them.
A good film about the nuts and bolts process of the economic crash is called Margin Call.
It's disinformation of course.
The basic premise is that the big Wall Street Investment banks didn't realize that they were over-leveraged on risky mortgage derivatives until it was too late to prevent a big collapse.
And at the trading-room level that's probably true.
The traders are often kids in their twenties.
They know how to buy and sell making split second decisions based on ever-changing market dynamics.
But they don't have any real understanding of economics.
They don't even know what exactly they are buying and selling.
But the people at the control level who created those toxic derivatives knew exactly what would happen when they began to be traded in high volume.
The collapse of the sub-prime mortgage derivatives market was entirely predictable. It was like a fuse that was intentionally lit to blow up the economy. Those who were watching could sell out at just the right time to make trillions. Those in the dark would be caught unawares and would lose trillions.
The nature of a conspiracy is always a secret among a small central core of insiders.
All others, including a lot of "useful idiots" who may play a big role in bringing about events but have no idea as to what they are involved in, are kept clueless.
It's disinformation of course.
The basic premise is that the big Wall Street Investment banks didn't realize that they were over-leveraged on risky mortgage derivatives until it was too late to prevent a big collapse.
And at the trading-room level that's probably true.
The traders are often kids in their twenties.
They know how to buy and sell making split second decisions based on ever-changing market dynamics.
But they don't have any real understanding of economics.
They don't even know what exactly they are buying and selling.
But the people at the control level who created those toxic derivatives knew exactly what would happen when they began to be traded in high volume.
The collapse of the sub-prime mortgage derivatives market was entirely predictable. It was like a fuse that was intentionally lit to blow up the economy. Those who were watching could sell out at just the right time to make trillions. Those in the dark would be caught unawares and would lose trillions.
The nature of a conspiracy is always a secret among a small central core of insiders.
All others, including a lot of "useful idiots" who may play a big role in bringing about events but have no idea as to what they are involved in, are kept clueless.
Rumple4skin: No, I just believe that those of adult mental age are ultimately accountable for themselves.
I believe that if my Grandad's war generation had been alive they wouldn't have been anywhere near as susceptible to a life lived through debt.. this point highlights another deficiency in modern intellect - the fixation upon events and the incapacity to appreciate the Human raw material beneath them.
I believe that if my Grandad's war generation had been alive they wouldn't have been anywhere near as susceptible to a life lived through debt.. this point highlights another deficiency in modern intellect - the fixation upon events and the incapacity to appreciate the Human raw material beneath them.
Yeah well, that sounds good in theory, although I do think you're off a generation or two. But then again you weren't from the great land of dreams of freedom, milk and honey, yours dealt with the realities of war and deprivation (or some did) ... but the reality of America is for the educational systems to not put much store in critical thinking... makes us much easier to manipulate that way.
Why would the elites wish to crash a system that firstly delivers them unparalled amounts of wealth and power and secondly protects them from rebellion?
Not to say that we are about to rebel, but it's true to say that the elites have not been more questioned than before now... So what logic does the charge of engineered recession stand upon when the very ability to engineer a global recession would clearly demonstrate that they had all the power begin with?
Not to say that we are about to rebel, but it's true to say that the elites have not been more questioned than before now... So what logic does the charge of engineered recession stand upon when the very ability to engineer a global recession would clearly demonstrate that they had all the power begin with?
gininitaly: Yeah well, that sounds good in theory, although I do think you're off a generation or two. But then again you weren't from the great land of dreams of freedom, milk and honey, yours dealt with the realities of war and deprivation (or some did) ... but the reality of America is for the educational systems to not put much store in critical thinking... makes us much easier to manipulate that way.
I think the historical precedent also makes me shun the conspiracy idea. The decadence that accompanies this recession has been repeated not only in the history of our own culture but also within the cultures of the ancients. Living beyond one's means is nothing new to Humanity.
But I suppose you are admitting that in order to be manipulated we must first become degenerate. And I don't blame education as such for this, my Grandad's generation is something to be proud of but not because of anything they learned on paper or at school, but because of everything they experienced in real life.
Rumple4skin: Why would the elites wish to crash a system that firstly delivers them unparalled amounts of wealth and power and secondly protects them from rebellion?
Not to say that we are about to rebel, but it's true to say that the elites have not been more questioned than before now... So what logic does the charge of engineered recession stand upon when the very ability to engineer a global recession would clearly demonstrate that they had all the power begin with?
Not to say that we are about to rebel, but it's true to say that the elites have not been more questioned than before now... So what logic does the charge of engineered recession stand upon when the very ability to engineer a global recession would clearly demonstrate that they had all the power begin with?
Because they've never been bolder or more visible than now... they've taken ALL the money that was formerly more distributed and we've finally figured that out. For decades all of this proceeded behind a veil and they understood that you have to occasionally give the proletariat a crumb or two to give them the illusion of free choice.
By Clintons' signing away of Glass-Siegel and then Bush opening the flood gates to wholesale too big to fail greed, monopolies(MIComplex, big oil, pharma etc), began to reign just like the old robber barons of old.... it's been a free for all for the last 15 years, all of them scrambling for what used to be 'our' billions and the power that brings and of course the buying of our government so that the illusion of a democracy has become a joke... so Ray's explanation is pretty right on. We're in our peak of this cycle of greed.
RayfromUSA: That quote problem started after they changed the software about a year ago. Before that it worked fine.
What I've noticed is that if you make any changes to the quote, such as erasing some parts of it to make it shorter there is a greater risk that it won't show as a quote.
And if you try to create a quote by copying the tags, make sure not to leave a space after the initial tag or before the closing tag. Otherwise the quote will appear as normal text.
no doubt another Conspiracy by the Elite!What I've noticed is that if you make any changes to the quote, such as erasing some parts of it to make it shorter there is a greater risk that it won't show as a quote.
And if you try to create a quote by copying the tags, make sure not to leave a space after the initial tag or before the closing tag. Otherwise the quote will appear as normal text.
Boban1: Every recession is engineered
Looks good in the CV,"Recession-Engineer"!Conrad73: Looks good in the CV,"Recession-Engineer"!
There is no doubt that economic elites want more money, but sometimes their plans go awry.
For example, property speculators believed they would have great benefits hogging many estates, and have had losses that have caused losses to banks that offered mortgages, and small savers who had properties and banking shares.
For example, property speculators believed they would have great benefits hogging many estates, and have had losses that have caused losses to banks that offered mortgages, and small savers who had properties and banking shares.
gininitaly: Because they've never been bolder or more visible than now... they've taken ALL the money that was formerly more distributed and we've finally figured that out. For decades all of this proceeded behind a veil and they understood that you have to occasionally give the proletariat a crumb or two to give them the illusion of free choice.
By Clintons' signing away of Glass-Siegel and then Bush opening the flood gates to wholesale too big to fail greed, monopolies(MIComplex, big oil, pharma etc), began to reign just like the old robber barons of old.... it's been a free for all for the last 15 years, all of them scrambling for what used to be 'our' billions and the power that brings and of course the buying of our government so that the illusion of a democracy has become a joke... so Ray's explanation is pretty right on. We're in our peak of this cycle of greed.
By Clintons' signing away of Glass-Siegel and then Bush opening the flood gates to wholesale too big to fail greed, monopolies(MIComplex, big oil, pharma etc), began to reign just like the old robber barons of old.... it's been a free for all for the last 15 years, all of them scrambling for what used to be 'our' billions and the power that brings and of course the buying of our government so that the illusion of a democracy has become a joke... so Ray's explanation is pretty right on. We're in our peak of this cycle of greed.
I accept the we have the worst elites we've ever had, they're not masters of our society they are the plunderers of our society. Big difference. But I don't look at society and see greed/decadence/laziness as wholly reserved to the have-yachts when we have tens of millions of Westerners leading cushy lives but doing little of anything of real value.
I would say that the elites would be the most secure and unquestioned if they could eternally repeat the pre-recession years.
But putting this recession right, whether it's the product of conspiracy or blunder, requires a revolution in the people's atittude towards work, life and each other. Perhaps we should all focus on this.
"my Grandad's generation is something to be proud of but not because of anything they learned on paper or at school, but because of everything they experienced in real life."
And that's one of the problems with America... they are isolated and insular, there are few borders and cultures or the experience of hell hitting them from left field. Can you buy that experience? Well no of course not, would your people rather have done without? Of course they would have.... and that's where America is weak.. in the real and bloody experience of war on their doorstep... we always seem to make sure it's on someone elses.
Now I went to high school in the states and I think we had one year of world history, once a week... think that gives a firm grasp of the deja vu essence of the folly of human experience? But we had years and years of American history... most of it lies and no one of course asking if anything was right or wrong.... only the myth was promoted, never the real facts, so actually it was only the US soldier whose had skin in the game on any of our dirty dealings.
So between the real life experience of woe and book learnin'.... we come up short on reality every time. Do you see why Americans are so easily deluded now?
And that's one of the problems with America... they are isolated and insular, there are few borders and cultures or the experience of hell hitting them from left field. Can you buy that experience? Well no of course not, would your people rather have done without? Of course they would have.... and that's where America is weak.. in the real and bloody experience of war on their doorstep... we always seem to make sure it's on someone elses.
Now I went to high school in the states and I think we had one year of world history, once a week... think that gives a firm grasp of the deja vu essence of the folly of human experience? But we had years and years of American history... most of it lies and no one of course asking if anything was right or wrong.... only the myth was promoted, never the real facts, so actually it was only the US soldier whose had skin in the game on any of our dirty dealings.
So between the real life experience of woe and book learnin'.... we come up short on reality every time. Do you see why Americans are so easily deluded now?
US Federal Reserve confirms it was hacked during the Super Bowl
gininitaly: "my Grandad's generation is something to be proud of but not because of anything they learned on paper or at school, but because of everything they experienced in real life."
And that's one of the problems with America... they are isolated and insular, there are few borders and cultures or the experience of hell hitting them from left field. Can you buy that experience? Well no of course not, would your people rather have done without? Of course they would have.... and that's where America is weak.. in the real and bloody experience of war on their doorstep... we always seem to make sure it's on someone elses. Nonsense!
Now I went to high school in the states and I think we had one year of world history, once a week... think that gives a firm grasp of the deja vu essence of the folly of human experience? But we had years and years of American history... most of it lies and no one of course asking if anything was right or wrong.... only the myth was promoted, never the real facts, more nonsense so actually it was only the US soldier whose had skin in the game on any of our dirty dealings.
So between the real life experience of woe and book learnin'.... we come up short on reality every time. Do you see why Americans are so easily deluded now?
And that's one of the problems with America... they are isolated and insular, there are few borders and cultures or the experience of hell hitting them from left field. Can you buy that experience? Well no of course not, would your people rather have done without? Of course they would have.... and that's where America is weak.. in the real and bloody experience of war on their doorstep... we always seem to make sure it's on someone elses. Nonsense!
Now I went to high school in the states and I think we had one year of world history, once a week... think that gives a firm grasp of the deja vu essence of the folly of human experience? But we had years and years of American history... most of it lies and no one of course asking if anything was right or wrong.... only the myth was promoted, never the real facts, more nonsense
so actually it was only the US soldier whose had skin in the game on any of our dirty dealings.So between the real life experience of woe and book learnin'.... we come up short on reality every time. Do you see why Americans are so easily deluded now?
Yes, this is why I am voting in Italy's General Election this month!
RayfromUSA: People are no wiser today than they were in ancient times.
Not true, if you divorce people from that which sustains them then all kind of silliness and decadence will ensue - modern economics does this more than any other system known to man. People don't appreciate how things are made and provided for, they just expect to receive them - this is the major problem of today.
A good example would be the fact that people in the countryside are far less likely to get into debt, notably personal debt, than city folk - especially cosmopolitan cities like London/Paris/New York etc.. This is because the rustic way of life makes them more practical in nature and more aware of the common sense realities of life. Wiser, just like the past generations.
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now tell me how many bank manager robbed money are in jail?
did u ever heard one go to jail?
i've never..
Are you sure about that? I can think about some British bankers sentenced for fraud which is the same thing as robbing