Banning the Burqa in France (192)
I beleive that European countries have to start putting their feet on their ground. In many Islamic countries Cristians and other faiths are not allowed and can't be practised. European women has to cover their head. People can't drink alcahol and lots of other western customs can't be practised. So why European countries have to oblige to their traditions. They wanted to come over here, so they have to oblige to our traditions and laws. If they don't like. No worries, just do your luggage again, get the first plane and fly back. In some European countries, Islamic children are not allowed to speak the country language but arab. In Italy which is a Catholic country by tradiiton there was the Cross issue in classes.
Not to forget that a lot of the Illegal Imigrants that are coming from North Africa are Islamic. On you tube there is this video of Gheddafi were he states that the Islamic Invasion will be a pacific one. And so it's happening. Countries like Malta and Italy are facing illegal immigrants landings every day. And funnily enough the majority of them are leaving the African continent by sea from Libya.
Not to forget that a lot of the Illegal Imigrants that are coming from North Africa are Islamic. On you tube there is this video of Gheddafi were he states that the Islamic Invasion will be a pacific one. And so it's happening. Countries like Malta and Italy are facing illegal immigrants landings every day. And funnily enough the majority of them are leaving the African continent by sea from Libya.
Three points:
1. Most moderate muslims will confirm that the wearing of the burka (there is more than one recognised spelling!) is NOT a religious requirement. It is a cultural practice in some but not all muslim countries. Anyone who goes to live in a different country must be willing to adopt the culture and practices of that country. For example, if I went to live in Afghanistan, I would expect to adopt the accepted respectful standards of behaviour shown by men of my age and situation towards men and women. If I should not feel able to do that, then that would be a problem for me to address - I would have no right to expect the local people to change their ways to suit me.
2. At a time when the lives of ordinary citizens in Europe are under increasing threat from those who intend to destabilise everyday life for political purposes, it is the responsibility of ALL citizens to be willing to accept some restrictions on their behaviour. That applies to newcomers as well as established citizens. Without that co-operation, the threat to our way of life will never be removed. We should have enough confidence and belief in our culture to want to preserve it, not let it get taken over.
3. Has anyone asked the Afghan women living in Europe if they would like the choice as to whether they wear the burka or not? Are there any burka-wearing women reading these posts who would like to reply? We might be able to have a less emotive debate if we knew their views.
John
1. Most moderate muslims will confirm that the wearing of the burka (there is more than one recognised spelling!) is NOT a religious requirement. It is a cultural practice in some but not all muslim countries. Anyone who goes to live in a different country must be willing to adopt the culture and practices of that country. For example, if I went to live in Afghanistan, I would expect to adopt the accepted respectful standards of behaviour shown by men of my age and situation towards men and women. If I should not feel able to do that, then that would be a problem for me to address - I would have no right to expect the local people to change their ways to suit me.
2. At a time when the lives of ordinary citizens in Europe are under increasing threat from those who intend to destabilise everyday life for political purposes, it is the responsibility of ALL citizens to be willing to accept some restrictions on their behaviour. That applies to newcomers as well as established citizens. Without that co-operation, the threat to our way of life will never be removed. We should have enough confidence and belief in our culture to want to preserve it, not let it get taken over.
3. Has anyone asked the Afghan women living in Europe if they would like the choice as to whether they wear the burka or not? Are there any burka-wearing women reading these posts who would like to reply? We might be able to have a less emotive debate if we knew their views.
John
Interesting perspective. Thanks for your post. 
Exeterjohn: Three points:
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John
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John
It's bad for cohesion in the community, bad for womens heatlh(causes ricketts disease), bad for womens rights, undermines security and forces a state to treat certain people differently, it also statistically leads to a higher birth rate in an already overcrowded community/nation/world.
Ban it now, before the Nationalists do something about it.
Ban it now, before the Nationalists do something about it.
Odysseus101: French lawmakers called Tuesday for a ban on the burqa -- the full Islamic veil worn by some Muslim women -- in hospitals, schools and on public transport.
What are your thoughts on this topic?
What are your thoughts on this topic?
K_rational: First, the burqa is allegedly worn to "protect a woman's virtue". The question is, from whom? That muslim women are expected to cover up suggests to me that it's muslim men who need to be controlled and their eyes covered, not the women's bodies. It would be cheaper, easier and more sensible for muslim men to start wearing blinders than for women to cover up.
Second, are the French going to ban all religious symbology from public places, or is this only targeted at islam as was the idiotic Swiss "minaret law" of a few weeks ago? Are they also going to ban christians from wearing or displaying crucifixes in schools and public buildings?
The only way in which I agree with the dumb law is that people's faces need to be seen for valid legal reasons (e.g. a face on a driver's license, no masks in banks, etc.).
Of course, the problem would solve itself if we just educate people. Then religion would naturally die out without any need to regulate it.
So what is Idiotic about not wanting Towers,with a Guy screaming his bloody Head off five times a Day from the top of it?Second, are the French going to ban all religious symbology from public places, or is this only targeted at islam as was the idiotic Swiss "minaret law" of a few weeks ago? Are they also going to ban christians from wearing or displaying crucifixes in schools and public buildings?
The only way in which I agree with the dumb law is that people's faces need to be seen for valid legal reasons (e.g. a face on a driver's license, no masks in banks, etc.).
Of course, the problem would solve itself if we just educate people. Then religion would naturally die out without any need to regulate it.
Churchbells are quite noisy enough,and there are possible Statutes under consideration to silence them at least at night!
An interesting televised debate on this matter has been posted on youtube, though there are two parts to view. I´d recommend watching it to those who are interested.
Most of the comments made here on the thread are also made by some of the studio audience on the show...BBC Question Time with Jonathon Dimbleby, along with some more thought provoking comments which may just make people think about the issue a little more deeply.
Here is the link.
Most of the comments made here on the thread are also made by some of the studio audience on the show...BBC Question Time with Jonathon Dimbleby, along with some more thought provoking comments which may just make people think about the issue a little more deeply.
Here is the link.
Odysseus101: French lawmakers called Tuesday for a ban on the burqa -- the full Islamic veil worn by some Muslim women -- in hospitals, schools and on public transport.
What are your thoughts on this topic?
What are your thoughts on this topic?
This is another one of those "much ado about nothing" situations.
I've lived in France for over 20 years and I've gone into areas that were almost totally arab, but I've never seen anybody in a fully veiled burqa, not even once.
Some older men and women do wear robes, because that's the way they dressed back in their own country. Not much different than Americans in their jeans and T-shirts back when it wasn't yet the international norm.
But there is nothing sinister or suspicious about such robes.
As for veils.
Some girls do wear veils that hide their hair. But not their faces. I'd be willing to bet that in all France there are less than 200 women who wear full facial veils. And they are all old women.
Exeterjohn:
2. At a time when the lives of ordinary citizens in Europe are under increasing threat from those who intend to destabilise everyday life for political purposes, it is the responsibility of ALL citizens to be willing to accept some restrictions on their behaviour.
John
2. At a time when the lives of ordinary citizens in Europe are under increasing threat from those who intend to destabilise everyday life for political purposes, it is the responsibility of ALL citizens to be willing to accept some restrictions on their behaviour.
John
In my opinion that idea of "accepting restrictions on behavior" on the basis of "terror" is far more dangerous than any threat from Islam.
Over the past decade, draconian limitations of rights that we used to take for granted have been imposed and accepted almost without question. All in the name of security. But are we more or less secure than we were prior to the rise of the Bush League and the ensuing Obamination.
Suspicion, paranoia, and police-state type control don't create security, they undermine and destroy it.
Liberty only exists when people insist on being free from unnecessary regimentation.
If we let them, government will take away every bit of freedom. Always in the name of security.
RayfromUSA: This is another one of those "much ado about nothing" situations.
I've lived in France for over 20 years and I've gone into areas that were almost totally arab, but I've never seen anybody in a fully veiled burqa, not even once.
Some older men and women do wear robes, because that's the way they dressed back in their own country. Not much different than Americans in their jeans and T-shirts back when it wasn't yet the international norm.
But there is nothing sinister or suspicious about such robes.
As for veils.
Some girls do wear veils that hide their hair. But not their faces. I'd be willing to bet that in all France there are less than 200 women who wear full facial veils. And they are all old women.
I've lived in France for over 20 years and I've gone into areas that were almost totally arab, but I've never seen anybody in a fully veiled burqa, not even once.
Some older men and women do wear robes, because that's the way they dressed back in their own country. Not much different than Americans in their jeans and T-shirts back when it wasn't yet the international norm.
But there is nothing sinister or suspicious about such robes.
As for veils.
Some girls do wear veils that hide their hair. But not their faces. I'd be willing to bet that in all France there are less than 200 women who wear full facial veils. And they are all old women.
Unfortunately, this is not true anymore particularly in big cities like Paris, Brussels or London. Some part of thoses cities became completely Muslims and are run by Muslims rules. It is dangerous, if not forbidden for a non-Muslim woman to walk there, mainly on Fridays. All woman wear a veil, mainy wear a burqa.
Youngster have been indoctrinated by Muslims teachers and imams and are now much more radicalists than their parents. Young girls wear the veil while their mothers don't.
Women in Europe had to fight for years to get freedom and recognition for their human rights. They cannot accept that other women arriving and living in their country are submitted to old-fashion rules that threat them as "untermensch".
RayfromUSA: In my opinion that idea of "accepting restrictions on behavior" on the basis of "terror" is far more dangerous than any threat from Islam.
Over the past decade, draconian limitations of rights that we used to take for granted have been imposed and accepted almost without question. All in the name of security. But are we more or less secure than we were prior to the rise of the Bush League and the ensuing Obamination.
Suspicion, paranoia, and police-state type control don't create security, they undermine and destroy it.
Liberty only exists when people insist on being free from unnecessary regimentation.
If we let them, government will take away every bit of freedom. Always in the name of security.
Over the past decade, draconian limitations of rights that we used to take for granted have been imposed and accepted almost without question. All in the name of security. But are we more or less secure than we were prior to the rise of the Bush League and the ensuing Obamination.
Suspicion, paranoia, and police-state type control don't create security, they undermine and destroy it.
Liberty only exists when people insist on being free from unnecessary regimentation.
If we let them, government will take away every bit of freedom. Always in the name of security.
Every law, every rule does limit people's freedom. But they are essential to have people live together.
European countries have laws that European people do respect. There is no reason to accept that immigrants do not respect the rules. According to Muslim rules women have no rights at all to give their opinion.
The terror was not created by Bush and Cy, but by Islamist attacks in different parts of the world. The reaction is may be not always correct but is better than no reaction at all. In name of democraty and freedom of mind, many European countries accept inconsciously to be run by Islamist rules (see my previous post for details).
A "pacific" invasion from radical Muslims is on-going since many years in Europe and in Africa and if me do not react firmly, all our freedom will soon be drastically reduced.
Antjo39: Your argument of the covered face is a little weak as people can uncover the face when they are checked, and if the woman blows up inside the mall, then you would not need her identity any longer. I don´t know, you say I have to thank the Jihaddists... well I do not have to thank anyone at all. I just see that this kind of stupidity creates more hatred, so the extremists will have to thank supporters of the ban... and that is exactly what many poeple (not everybody but many) in Israel and all the West are up to.
Same way I need to control my tempers, some people need to control the burning hate inside.
Same way I need to control my tempers, some people need to control the burning hate inside.
I do not agree at all with your analyse.
First, Islamists do not allow their wives to uncover their face when they are checked.
It's very shocking to say that banning burqa is ment to know the identity of the women who blows up inside the mall. Have you ever been thinking about the victims? Banning burqa is meant to try to avoid having more victims of Islamists hate.
By accepting burqas as well as other Muslims requests (look at my post for many examples), the democratic governments are showing their weakness against Islam conquering their countries. European values and rules are more and more replaced by Muslim rules. That is why people now resent Islamists and more and more vote for extreme-right parties.
gabrielle95: I do not agree at all with your analyse.
First, Islamists do not allow their wives to uncover their face when they are checked.
It's very shocking to say that banning burqa is ment to know the identity of the women who blows up inside the mall. Have you ever been thinking about the victims? Banning burqa is meant to try to avoid having more victims of Islamists hate.
By accepting burqas as well as other Muslims requests (look at my post for many examples), the democratic governments are showing their weakness against Islam conquering their countries. European values and rules are more and more replaced by Muslim rules. That is why people now resent Islamists and more and more vote for extreme-right parties.
Okay, you can vote ofr them too if you like.And the law can be modified to force people to show their faces. That would be more "democratic" in those far lans of wonderful "democracy".First, Islamists do not allow their wives to uncover their face when they are checked.
It's very shocking to say that banning burqa is ment to know the identity of the women who blows up inside the mall. Have you ever been thinking about the victims? Banning burqa is meant to try to avoid having more victims of Islamists hate.
By accepting burqas as well as other Muslims requests (look at my post for many examples), the democratic governments are showing their weakness against Islam conquering their countries. European values and rules are more and more replaced by Muslim rules. That is why people now resent Islamists and more and more vote for extreme-right parties.
Conquering your countries? Values and rules more and more replaced?
Maybe it is true... I just say that I have read that at Stormfront many times and other alike sources. Thanks for recalling it to me.
Antjo39: Okay, you can vote ofr them too if you like.And the law can be modified to force people to show their faces. That would be more "democratic" in those far lans of wonderful "democracy".
Conquering your countries? Values and rules more and more replaced?
Maybe it is true... I just say that I have read that at Stormfront many times and other alike sources. Thanks for recalling it to me.
Sorry for quick typing:Conquering your countries? Values and rules more and more replaced?
Maybe it is true... I just say that I have read that at Stormfront many times and other alike sources. Thanks for recalling it to me.
Okay, you can vote for them too if you like. And the law can be modified to force people to show their faces at checkpoints or whatever. That would be more "democratic" in those far lands of wonderful "democracy".
Antjo39:
With the boys of that website and others I have had that constant debate. One of my points is: Their ancestors brought up lots of havoc, revolted other lands with the "links" they made.... and now there is a wave back right to their land just because of those "links".
It is just, I guess, cause and effect.
I don´t know if we have to harp and mourn on that too much unless we want to promote more havoc.
Antjo39: Okay, you can vote ofr them too if you like.And the law can be modified to force people to show their faces. That would be more "democratic" in those far lans of wonderful "democracy".
Conquering your countries? Values and rules more and more replaced?
Maybe it is true... I just say that I have read that at Stormfront many times and other alike sources. Thanks for recalling it to me.
Conquering your countries? Values and rules more and more replaced?
Maybe it is true... I just say that I have read that at Stormfront many times and other alike sources. Thanks for recalling it to me.
Thanks, but no thanks. I will never vote for any extremist party.
About the "pacific" conquers, please read my post from Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:33 PM GMT. These are a few examples of what is going on in our countries.
Antjo39: With the boys of that website and others I have had that constant debate. One of my points is: Their ancestors brought up lots of havoc, revolted other lands with the "links" they made.... and now there is a wave back right to their land just because of those "links".
It is just, I guess, cause and effect.
I don´t know if we have to harp and mourn on that too much unless we want to promote more havoc.
It is just, I guess, cause and effect.
I don´t know if we have to harp and mourn on that too much unless we want to promote more havoc.
Well, you know what they say "When in Rome...."
However, I think that people should be able to dress as they please.
Yesterday, my friend told me that when one of her employees has to go to court (for her job) she has to put a bandaid over the teeny tiny shamrock that she has tattooed on her ankle because the judge says no tattoos in the court room. Which makes me wonder, what if you have a big one on your face. Do you wear a pillowcase for your trial???
However, I think that people should be able to dress as they please.
Yesterday, my friend told me that when one of her employees has to go to court (for her job) she has to put a bandaid over the teeny tiny shamrock that she has tattooed on her ankle because the judge says no tattoos in the court room. Which makes me wonder, what if you have a big one on your face. Do you wear a pillowcase for your trial???
RayfromUSA: .......
Liberty only exists when people insist on being free from unnecessary regimentation........
Liberty only exists when people insist on being free from unnecessary regimentation........
I could not disagree more. It is quite the opposite. Liberty only exists when people acting together are willing to stand up and protect it. That may well and probably does involve accepting some restrictions on our complete freedom to do what we like.
Of course, we would all reject unnecessary restrictions but, in difficult or dangerous times, some restrictions may well be very necessary.
We all accept some restrictions already, e.g. speed limits, limits on anti-social behaviour, etc., in order to ensure the smooth organisation of society.
John
shezipk: Let your own life and dont interupt with others, Every one has the right to wear what he/she likes, if the girls can wear bikini than why dont others wear Burqa, i guess its a very narrow minded people who against this double standards....
REALY???? AND WHY IS PROHIBITING IN YOUR COUNTRY TO WEAR BIKINI THE WOMEN???? EVERYONE HAVE THE RIGHT TO WEAR WHAT HE/SHE LIKE
I assume all those people who say it is a woman's right to wear a burka would also stand up for my freedom to wear a K.K.K outfit in public (complete with face covering)? Would they stand up for my right to refuse to teach somebody wearing a Burka?
Iuchi_Zien: I assume all those people who say it is a woman's right to wear a burka would also stand up for my freedom to wear a K.K.K outfit in public (complete with face covering)? Would they stand up for my right to refuse to teach somebody wearing a Burka?
You'd probably end up in Jail for violating their Civil Rights.
What next??!!.....maybe the next thing they ban will be bras!! 
Odysseus101: What next??!!.....maybe the next thing they ban will be bras!!
We already did that for ourselves
I support everything you have just said. Misogynistic behaviour, whatever the ideology, is hateful.
trish123: I hate, loathe and detest all that the burqa represents quite honestly. If the women were choosing this form of dress for themselves I might be more understanding but that would still leave the security issue.
I commend France for their efforts to end the Islamisation of Europe. They have also banned symbols of other religions so why not this one. Not all Islamic men force the women to wear the burqa but increasingly more are doing so.
Ive scoured the internet for comments from women on this issue and they are conspicuously absent other than from a few academics who have escaped the tyranny.
Yes, Im the first to agree that anybody should have the freedom to choose what to wear but the issue here is that these women dont have the choice, its forced on them by an increasingly misogynistic and politicised arm of Islam - the burqa is just the tip of the iceberg too, these women are denied many of the freedoms that we take for granted and my opinion is that if they want to live in Europe then they should get with the programme.
We have fought long and hard for womens rights in Europe and they apply to all women with no exceptions.
I commend France for their efforts to end the Islamisation of Europe. They have also banned symbols of other religions so why not this one. Not all Islamic men force the women to wear the burqa but increasingly more are doing so.
Ive scoured the internet for comments from women on this issue and they are conspicuously absent other than from a few academics who have escaped the tyranny.
Yes, Im the first to agree that anybody should have the freedom to choose what to wear but the issue here is that these women dont have the choice, its forced on them by an increasingly misogynistic and politicised arm of Islam - the burqa is just the tip of the iceberg too, these women are denied many of the freedoms that we take for granted and my opinion is that if they want to live in Europe then they should get with the programme.
We have fought long and hard for womens rights in Europe and they apply to all women with no exceptions.
trish123: I hate, loathe and detest all that the burqa represents quite honestly. If the women were choosing this form of dress for themselves I might be more understanding but that would still leave the security issue.
I commend France for their efforts to end the Islamisation of Europe. They have also banned symbols of other religions so why not this one. Not all Islamic men force the women to wear the burqa but increasingly more are doing so.
Ive scoured the internet for comments from women on this issue and they are conspicuously absent other than from a few academics who have escaped the tyranny.
Yes, Im the first to agree that anybody should have the freedom to choose what to wear but the issue here is that these women dont have the choice, its forced on them by an increasingly misogynistic and politicised arm of Islam - the burqa is just the tip of the iceberg too, these women are denied many of the freedoms that we take for granted and my opinion is that if they want to live in Europe then they should get with the programme.
We have fought long and hard for womens rights in Europe and they apply to all women with no exceptions.
I commend France for their efforts to end the Islamisation of Europe. They have also banned symbols of other religions so why not this one. Not all Islamic men force the women to wear the burqa but increasingly more are doing so.
Ive scoured the internet for comments from women on this issue and they are conspicuously absent other than from a few academics who have escaped the tyranny.
Yes, Im the first to agree that anybody should have the freedom to choose what to wear but the issue here is that these women dont have the choice, its forced on them by an increasingly misogynistic and politicised arm of Islam - the burqa is just the tip of the iceberg too, these women are denied many of the freedoms that we take for granted and my opinion is that if they want to live in Europe then they should get with the programme.
We have fought long and hard for womens rights in Europe and they apply to all women with no exceptions.
Very meticulous, concise, accurate and well said Trish. I agree with you 100%
LILLYLADY: Very meticulous, concise, accurate and well said Trish. I agree with you 100%
Thanks LillyLady
I had to think long and hard about taking this stance but it is the common misconception that these women have a choice that swayed me. Ostensibly, yes, any one of them could defy the dictates of their husbands and religious leaders but at what price........... In the countries where right wing Islam holds power, women can be imprisoned or publicly stoned to death for the slightest misdemeanors - I do not want to see this return to medieval behaviour happening in Europe, it quite terrifies me in fact!
trish123: Thanks LillyLady
I had to think long and hard about taking this stance but it is the common misconception that these women have a choice that swayed me. Ostensibly, yes, any one of them could defy the dictates of their husbands and religious leaders but at what price........... In the countries where right wing Islam holds power, women can be imprisoned or publicly stoned to death for the slightest misdemeanors - I do not want to see this return to medieval behaviour happening in Europe, it quite terrifies me in fact!
I had to think long and hard about taking this stance but it is the common misconception that these women have a choice that swayed me. Ostensibly, yes, any one of them could defy the dictates of their husbands and religious leaders but at what price........... In the countries where right wing Islam holds power, women can be imprisoned or publicly stoned to death for the slightest misdemeanors - I do not want to see this return to medieval behaviour happening in Europe, it quite terrifies me in fact!
What does frighten me also is that 2nd or even 3rd generation of Muslim immigrants are more radical than their parents. Apart from attending public or private schools, they also go to coranic schools where they are taught to radical Islamism by Imams. I used to live next a Catholic school but where many Muslims attend. The girls were not allowed to wear the veil inside school. When leaving school, the first thing they did was to put their veil on. Many times I discussed with some of those girls, trying to know if they were obliged to wear it by their parents. To my surprise, they told me their mother does not wear a veil but they do as a revolt against their parents authority. They want to show their freedom ! I couldn't beleive it but they all were very proud to try to convince me!
A little report from my neighbourhood...
It's a bit long perhaps, but well worth the read:
Oslo: 'Morality police' in immigrant neighborhood
Bobby Burner is hungry after work and is chewing a samosa while walking on Grønlandsleiret street. Suddenly two young strangers block his way. Curtly and aggressively they ask: "Don't you know it's Ramadan? You should know better!"
Sosionomen, originally from Iran, might look like a Muslim, but he isn't. During the Muslim fast last fall he was - as so many times before - in the capital's multicultural district where the trendiest cafes are next to the cheapest curry stands.
In Grønland turban-wearing men leave Friday prayers as the young and trendy start the long weekend in town. The city's greatest concentration of khat joints and minarets are here. Burner likes the cultural diversity. But in particular after September 11, 2001 he's noticed a negative development: increased use of social control, hijab and full-body veils. More men with beards.
"To be stopped on the street I see as harassing and threatening. It was worse than being attacked. There's no evidence for this form of harassment," says Burner.
In the fall there were sharp responses when a gay couple who walked hand in hand in Grønland, was attacked and insulted. The man who harassed them said that they were in a Muslim district where 'this sort of thing' is undesirable.
The following debate was mostly about the treatment of visible gays. A direct consequences is that the summer's gay parade moved and will start in Grønland's square.
But there are many others who experience as much strict control when they walk in the exotic street community.
In working on his dialog meetings about integration, Abid Raja got reports from many Muslim girls about how stressful they see Grønland. Some stay away, others adapt and dress in traditional clothing to avoid persecution. Most widespread are the non-verbal harassment of aggressive looks of rebuke, scorn and contempt.
Both Raja and others stress that it only applies to a limited group. But some men act as a religious police for Muslim girls who dress in Western clothing, because they fear that they daughters will do the same.
"Even strange girls they don't know, the men try to control. the control is becoming more widespread, but in Grønland acceptance for it has developed," says Raja.
Somali author Amal Aden thinks it's frightening that social control is becoming much stricter since she moved from Grønland eight years ago. She tells of young girls where men touch their breasts and pinch their bottom, claiming that it's the girls' own fault for not covering themselves.
"This affects women and girls who in the opinion of these men are lightly dressed, almost naked, when they go in jeans and Western clothing."
Last fall Bobby Burner was harassed once when he was eating a fruit while going into a barbershop where he was a regular customer.
He noticed the barber's hostile gave, the other customers who exchanged glances and looked contemptuously at him.
Curtly the barber informed him it was Ramadan, before he turned on the radio with Koran recitations. With quick, angry movements the barber started working on Burner's hair.
"He acted as if I was impure, which he would rather not touch. He wanted to get rid of me as quickly as possible."
Burner thinks we will see more segregation than integration from now on.
"Many of minority background feel pressured by the majority population to develop their own community. Invisible walls are being built between people who create their own society with their own rules. They prefer to interact with each other and have little contact with others," he says.
cont.
It's a bit long perhaps, but well worth the read:
Oslo: 'Morality police' in immigrant neighborhood
Bobby Burner is hungry after work and is chewing a samosa while walking on Grønlandsleiret street. Suddenly two young strangers block his way. Curtly and aggressively they ask: "Don't you know it's Ramadan? You should know better!"
Sosionomen, originally from Iran, might look like a Muslim, but he isn't. During the Muslim fast last fall he was - as so many times before - in the capital's multicultural district where the trendiest cafes are next to the cheapest curry stands.
In Grønland turban-wearing men leave Friday prayers as the young and trendy start the long weekend in town. The city's greatest concentration of khat joints and minarets are here. Burner likes the cultural diversity. But in particular after September 11, 2001 he's noticed a negative development: increased use of social control, hijab and full-body veils. More men with beards.
"To be stopped on the street I see as harassing and threatening. It was worse than being attacked. There's no evidence for this form of harassment," says Burner.
In the fall there were sharp responses when a gay couple who walked hand in hand in Grønland, was attacked and insulted. The man who harassed them said that they were in a Muslim district where 'this sort of thing' is undesirable.
The following debate was mostly about the treatment of visible gays. A direct consequences is that the summer's gay parade moved and will start in Grønland's square.
But there are many others who experience as much strict control when they walk in the exotic street community.
In working on his dialog meetings about integration, Abid Raja got reports from many Muslim girls about how stressful they see Grønland. Some stay away, others adapt and dress in traditional clothing to avoid persecution. Most widespread are the non-verbal harassment of aggressive looks of rebuke, scorn and contempt.
Both Raja and others stress that it only applies to a limited group. But some men act as a religious police for Muslim girls who dress in Western clothing, because they fear that they daughters will do the same.
"Even strange girls they don't know, the men try to control. the control is becoming more widespread, but in Grønland acceptance for it has developed," says Raja.
Somali author Amal Aden thinks it's frightening that social control is becoming much stricter since she moved from Grønland eight years ago. She tells of young girls where men touch their breasts and pinch their bottom, claiming that it's the girls' own fault for not covering themselves.
"This affects women and girls who in the opinion of these men are lightly dressed, almost naked, when they go in jeans and Western clothing."
Last fall Bobby Burner was harassed once when he was eating a fruit while going into a barbershop where he was a regular customer.
He noticed the barber's hostile gave, the other customers who exchanged glances and looked contemptuously at him.
Curtly the barber informed him it was Ramadan, before he turned on the radio with Koran recitations. With quick, angry movements the barber started working on Burner's hair.
"He acted as if I was impure, which he would rather not touch. He wanted to get rid of me as quickly as possible."
Burner thinks we will see more segregation than integration from now on.
"Many of minority background feel pressured by the majority population to develop their own community. Invisible walls are being built between people who create their own society with their own rules. They prefer to interact with each other and have little contact with others," he says.
cont.
In spite of my beliefs in freedoms, of speech, of thought etc. I am totally with the French on this. France is a secular country, just like Saudi Arabia is an Islamic country. You go to Saudi Arabia with (one would hope) the knowledge that the religious beliefs of that country will impact on your choices. No Alcohol, no naked beach bathing etc. Why should a secular country not be able to do the same?
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What are your thoughts on this topic?
Oh! When you put it that way it sounds like the government is doing it for safety reasons, not for ethnic reasons. But I still think that means that the women who wear those things will be very inconvenienced. Their culture will just make them avoid those places, or send men out instead of going out themselves, and it will create an under current of hostility.