Banning the Burqa in France (192)
gabrielle95: It's not double standards.
To hide your face is (and always was) illegal. Why should France allow some women to break the law?
Any religious signs are against the rules of public schools. Why should schools make an exception for Muslim veils and burqa?
In our countries, the Muslims claim that wearing a veil is a religious obligation.
Would I be allowed to wear a bikini in Dubaï's streets?
Where are the narrow minded people?
To hide your face is (and always was) illegal. Why should France allow some women to break the law?
Any religious signs are against the rules of public schools. Why should schools make an exception for Muslim veils and burqa?
In our countries, the Muslims claim that wearing a veil is a religious obligation.
Would I be allowed to wear a bikini in Dubaï's streets?
Where are the narrow minded people?
I agree. Bigotry has nothing to do with it. Muslims, according to some comments on here, seem to have no problem asking for exceptions from other countries that they would not grant in their own - that is most odd.
When you live or work in another country, be a decent guest and follow the law there. Maybe they think their oil money can put them above the law? I agree with a philosophy that people should return to a country of origin or one with a similar culture if they do not like the rules of the country the emigrate to or work in.
I am not really knowledgeable about the constitution of France.
A country like the United States is founded on a principle of separation of church and state, and although the details are sometimes points of contention (prayer in schools, for example), the basic tenets are in tact and designed to protect the indivudal's right to worship by granting our CITIZENS religious freedom - be it Muslim,or.... Christian....as America was founded by settlers; many of whom were fleeing religious persecution at the time. So worship as you please, at home, or in a mosque/church, but be prepared to render unto ceasar...remove the veil's for safety considerations. (I do agree with the lady who said the costume is attractive tho' - they are beautiful clothing)
RayfromUSA: Your viewpoint is more scary than anything I have ever heard from any genuine Islamic source.
The idea that people's faces must be seen and identified in a public place for the sake of security is ridiculous.
Anonymity is a right.
And anonymity contributes more to security than anything else.
I do not grant the government the right to identify me in public places without probable cause.
Seeing women's faces does not contribute to security in any way.
Nobody carries bombs on their faces.
And for that matter, nearly all of the so-called suicide bombers we hear about are just victims that got the blame.
It's easy to set up a bomb to explode and then blame one of the victims.
And it's so handy because there is nobody left to protest their innocence.
Remember that 9 of the 19 named "suicide bombers" of 911 proved to be alive and well and had absolutely no link to terrorism. It's just that their papers had been stolen, so that they could be falsely blamed.
In my opinion anonymity in public places contributes far more to security than does exposing everybody's identity at every moment.
Invasion of privacy isn't synonymous with security.
It's often the exact opposite.
The idea that people's faces must be seen and identified in a public place for the sake of security is ridiculous.
Anonymity is a right.
And anonymity contributes more to security than anything else.
I do not grant the government the right to identify me in public places without probable cause.
Seeing women's faces does not contribute to security in any way.
Nobody carries bombs on their faces.
And for that matter, nearly all of the so-called suicide bombers we hear about are just victims that got the blame.
It's easy to set up a bomb to explode and then blame one of the victims.
And it's so handy because there is nobody left to protest their innocence.
Remember that 9 of the 19 named "suicide bombers" of 911 proved to be alive and well and had absolutely no link to terrorism. It's just that their papers had been stolen, so that they could be falsely blamed.
In my opinion anonymity in public places contributes far more to security than does exposing everybody's identity at every moment.
Invasion of privacy isn't synonymous with security.
It's often the exact opposite.
OK Ray,
Your viewpoint is rather scary to say the least. OMG....with your views, better hope for your sake that you never get attacked or beat up by persom(s) with a full face covering of any type, be it in public or in your own home. Since you won't be able to identify who beat you up, then there is no probable cause for police to bother to look for them if we are to follow your views on security and anonymity.
After all as you have stated, 1)"The idea that people's faces must be seen and identified in a public place for the sake of security is ridiculous. 2)Anonymity is a right.
3)And anonymity contributes more to security than anything else.In my opinion anonymity in public places contributes far more to security than does exposing everybody's identity at every moment.4)Invasion of privacy isn't synonymous with security.
It's often the exact opposite."
Suicide bombers are trained, be they women or men and they can cover their face and body with burqua or whatever they want to try to fool their victims and they have been very successful. THE IDEA IS TO IDENTIFY THEM AND APPREHEND THEM BEFORE THEY DO THEIR DIRTYWORK. That is exactly why countries are taking a stance on face coverings now.
Israel has it right when they say that they have been looking at people's eyes and can spot suspicious terrorists and they have been rather successful with this approach in general. The burqua won't cut it when it comes to security. Took many loss of lives in Israel to get to this point. Perhaps European countries are now wanting to become more vigilant of their residents and are taking steps to prevent such a loss of lives as has happened in Spain, Germany and other countries where these bombers have infiltrated and taken over.
Suicide bombers aspire first to a radical Islamic ideology that is not of mainstream peaceful Islam. Then they meet their trainers and learn to do the dirtywork that they so willingly want to do. I don't buy that they are innocent victims whatsoever...poppycock!!
Guess if you don't like the laws of the country you live in at this time...I think you would not meet any resistance from your government if you want to emmigrate to a country that embraces your views.
gabrielle95: Everyone has to know the laws. In France as well as in Belgium, the law says that people have to be identificable. It also is an obligation to have an identity card with you everywhere at any time. Sorry to hear that you find French laws ridiculous, but the law is the law and everybody living in the country should respect them!
Sorry, but I live in France and there is no such law that requires visible identifiability at all times in public places.
And if such a law existed, it would not be respected or obeyed by the French people.
People wear scarves, mufflers, and hooded jackets that zip up to the nose.
They wear dark glasses to protect their eyes from sunlight or unwanted eye contact.
They wear wigs, makeup, and even disguises to change their appearance.
And nobody cares.
The issue about the burqa is not identifiability for the sake of security.
It is an attempt to suppress visible signs of a particular religious tradition.
And those who cry the loudest about it are those who have hidden religious or political agendas of their own.
RayfromUSA: Sorry, but I live in France and there is no such law that requires visible identifiability at all times in public places..
You'd better get information before talking nonsense.
I am Belgian and I know my country's laws.
I repeat "In France as well as in Belgium, the law says that people have to be identificable. It also is an obligation to have an identity card with you everywhere at any time"
This video is pretty representative of french opinions on the subject.
99% of the people in France don't think there should be a ban.
There are very very few Burqas in France and they are almost all worn by older women who wore them back in their home countries for years.
It's really a non-issue.
But Sarkozy is like Bush, Blaire, and the rest of that gang of petty little politicians who were raised to power only because they sold out to globalist puppet masters.
His policies are intended to create internal problems where none existed, to set race against race, religion against religion, class against class, etc etc etc.
Creating internal conflict is the key to subjugation.
"Divide and conquer".
99% of the people in France don't think there should be a ban.
There are very very few Burqas in France and they are almost all worn by older women who wore them back in their home countries for years.
It's really a non-issue.
But Sarkozy is like Bush, Blaire, and the rest of that gang of petty little politicians who were raised to power only because they sold out to globalist puppet masters.
His policies are intended to create internal problems where none existed, to set race against race, religion against religion, class against class, etc etc etc.
Creating internal conflict is the key to subjugation.
"Divide and conquer".
LILLYLADY: I concur with your choice of "This is France, if you don't like it, leave!" With the increase in radical Islam and the increase in women being trained as suicide bombers, I can well understand the French government's banning the burqua in public places. If they want to keep it on in their home, then so be it.
Besides, they are making themselves more obvious to police surveilance by being profiled.
When you think about it, a young orthodox Jewish boy donning his morning Tefillin prayer paraphenalia on a plane caused the pilot to land the plane and have security interogate the young man. Well, I am in 100% agreement for not allowing even that on the plane. Afterall, if there was a radical Jewish guy or some radical Muslim pretending to be an orthodox Jew who wanted to bring down a plane, hiding explosive mixtures in a prayer box pretending to pray would be a very good hiding place for bomb ingredients.
Myself, I would have thought nothing of it to see a Jewish guy with his tefillin wrapped around his arm and strapped to his forehead praying. But for anyone else who is not aware of the tradition, I must say that it is rather odd to see it on a plane for sure and certainly arouse suspicions in this day of terrorists infiltrating our air security.
I applaud the pilot for landing the plane and using very wise discretionary caution in this case.
Besides, they are making themselves more obvious to police surveilance by being profiled.
When you think about it, a young orthodox Jewish boy donning his morning Tefillin prayer paraphenalia on a plane caused the pilot to land the plane and have security interogate the young man. Well, I am in 100% agreement for not allowing even that on the plane. Afterall, if there was a radical Jewish guy or some radical Muslim pretending to be an orthodox Jew who wanted to bring down a plane, hiding explosive mixtures in a prayer box pretending to pray would be a very good hiding place for bomb ingredients.
Myself, I would have thought nothing of it to see a Jewish guy with his tefillin wrapped around his arm and strapped to his forehead praying. But for anyone else who is not aware of the tradition, I must say that it is rather odd to see it on a plane for sure and certainly arouse suspicions in this day of terrorists infiltrating our air security.
I applaud the pilot for landing the plane and using very wise discretionary caution in this case.
Ray is just trying to "rattle my cage" a bit Stress with his new conspiracy of the week story.
He should write a book to encompass his "new flavor of the week" conspiracy theories.
He never ceases to amaze us all with his entertaining ideas and story lines. 
He should write a book to encompass his "new flavor of the week" conspiracy theories.
He never ceases to amaze us all with his entertaining ideas and story lines.
This article gives a pretty good analysis of the situation.
The burqa is really a non-issue here in France.
I've been here 2O years and never even seen a single burqa.
It's traditional dress from Pakistan, not North Africa.
And the arabs of France are almost all from North Africa.
The ban will only affect a couple of hundred old women.
But Sarkozy made it an issue for political reasons. To give the world the impression that he is tough on Islamic fundamentalism.
Although Sakozy has lost all former popularity in France, and couldn't win another term even if he were allowed to run, he is now trying to line himself up for a globalist post like president of the EU.
So this whole burqa "issue" is just to get his name in the foreign papers.
The burqa is really a non-issue here in France.
I've been here 2O years and never even seen a single burqa.
It's traditional dress from Pakistan, not North Africa.
And the arabs of France are almost all from North Africa.
The ban will only affect a couple of hundred old women.
But Sarkozy made it an issue for political reasons. To give the world the impression that he is tough on Islamic fundamentalism.
Although Sakozy has lost all former popularity in France, and couldn't win another term even if he were allowed to run, he is now trying to line himself up for a globalist post like president of the EU.
So this whole burqa "issue" is just to get his name in the foreign papers.
RayfromUSA: This article gives a pretty good analysis of the situation.
The burqa is really a non-issue here in France.
I've been here 2O years and never even seen a single burqa.
It's traditional dress from Pakistan, not North Africa.
And the arabs of France are almost all from North Africa.
The ban will only affect a couple of hundred old women.
But Sarkozy made it an issue for political reasons. To give the world the impression that he is tough on Islamic fundamentalism.
Although Sakozy has lost all former popularity in France, and couldn't win another term even if he were allowed to run, he is now trying to line himself up for a globalist post like president of the EU.
So this whole burqa "issue" is just to get his name in the foreign papers.
The burqa is really a non-issue here in France.
I've been here 2O years and never even seen a single burqa.
It's traditional dress from Pakistan, not North Africa.
And the arabs of France are almost all from North Africa.
The ban will only affect a couple of hundred old women.
But Sarkozy made it an issue for political reasons. To give the world the impression that he is tough on Islamic fundamentalism.
Although Sakozy has lost all former popularity in France, and couldn't win another term even if he were allowed to run, he is now trying to line himself up for a globalist post like president of the EU.
So this whole burqa "issue" is just to get his name in the foreign papers.
Then I guess Sarkozy is being very proactive. If it works politially in his favor, then great! Obviously from what you have said, there are a couple of 100 old women with the head coverings. But with the younger generation wanting to go back to the old ways and the males who want to embrace the radical views of Islam...this may have to be the new law of the land.
So for those who don't aspire to the new rules in France...then they can go go wherever they choose to fit in with the cultural dress norms that they embrace and insist on.
People need to go with the law of their land or graciously take a courtsy, bow out and immigrate elsewhere. And the curtain will drop down after they exit blocking their return.
I watched the video Ray...still no evidence or support for your claims. Didn't this issue originally come up years ago on France?
I think Sarzoky is just trying to make a law for safety and to implement his vision on the war against terror in his mistaken way. It may have something to do with a little intolerance as well. Plus the presidency of the EU is on a rotational basis with countries already designated---France is not up for a Presidency for a long time.
No conspiracy here folks. Nothing to see to see here, take a step back
I think Sarzoky is just trying to make a law for safety and to implement his vision on the war against terror in his mistaken way. It may have something to do with a little intolerance as well. Plus the presidency of the EU is on a rotational basis with countries already designated---France is not up for a Presidency for a long time.
No conspiracy here folks. Nothing to see to see here, take a step back
Can you imagine the consquenses of Western women wearing bikinis and acceptable summer wear in Iran or some of the other arab moslem countries.... why do we see western women journalists etc..filmed with total body and head covered...why have we heard/read about special moslem units who police what their women are wearing in public and punish those who do not conform!!!
shezipk: Let your own life and dont interupt with others, Every one has the right to wear what he/she likes, if the girls can wear bikini than why dont others wear Burqa, i guess its a very narrow minded people who against this double standards....
LILLYLADY: Ray is just trying to "rattle my cage" a bit Stress with his new conspiracy of the week story.
He should write a book to encompass his "new flavor of the week" conspiracy theories.
He never ceases to amaze us all with his entertaining ideas and story lines.
He should write a book to encompass his "new flavor of the week" conspiracy theories.
He never ceases to amaze us all with his entertaining ideas and story lines.
Glad you like it LillyLady.
Don't worry LillyLady, as long as the truth amazes you, I intend to keep you amazed.
goodvibes6: Can you imagine the consquenses of Western women wearing bikinis and acceptable summer wear in Iran or some of the other arab moslem countries.... ...
Can you imagine the consequences of any country bombing, invading and militarily occupying the US, and claiming that they are only there to help?
When it comes to the subject of not imposing one's ways on other nations, the west has nothing to teach the afghanis.
goodvibes6: why do we see western women journalists etc..filmed with total body and head covered
Why do we see discredited politicians like Sarkozy launching major multimillion dollar publicity and political campaigns to outlaw a traditional clothing practice that affects less than one tenth of one percent of the population in his country?
Why pretend to be liberating people from their own traditions.
The answer is easy.
"politics".
StressFree: I watched the video Ray...still no evidence or support for your claims. Didn't this issue originally come up years ago on France?
Not too clear as to what you imagine "my claims" to be SF.
But like most of the people in this thread, you don't seem to know much about the real issue.
Here in France, the Burka is almost never seen.
I've been here for 20 years and never seen one.
What you are probably referring to that came up several years ago was a similar proposed ban on the wearing of another type of Islamic veil, the hijab. It's really just a scarf that covers the hair, but not usually entirely.
That proposed ban was rejected soundly by the French public.
All over France schoolgirls wore scarves to show solidarity with the arab girls.
Here's a hijab.
The burqa is another, very different type of veil that covers the entire face. It's only from Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan.
Although it is rather ridiculous, and belongs to the past, I don't see any reason to criminalize it.
Nobody in France wears the Burqa except a very very few old women from the areas in which it is worn. And frankly, if they want to wear it I have no complaint.
RayfromUSA: Not too clear as to what you imagine "my claims" to be SF.
Here in France, the Burka is almost never seen.
I've been here for 20 years and never seen one.
Here in France, the Burka is almost never seen.
I've been here for 20 years and never seen one.
I was referring to your suicide bomber theory.
I'll take your word on you never seeing a woman with a Burka. Is there a chance they are dressed in isolated neighborhoods that you have never been to?
RayfromUSA: Glad you like it LillyLady.
Don't worry LillyLady, as long as the truth amazes you, I intend to keep you amazed.
Don't worry LillyLady, as long as the truth amazes you, I intend to keep you amazed.
I definitely am not worried Ray. You humor me quite a bit and I bust up laughing. Somehow you come across as "If ya can't dazzle us all with brilliance, then bewilder us all with bull$*@#."
We all know that you love to rattle a cage a bit(especially mine) so I as well as others just let you rant on a bit with your conspiracy of the week story. You read like a suspense thriller every week...quite entertaining as you say.
It must be very spiritually therapeutic for you to release all your frustrations about the world to us, especially your frustration with the U.S. and Israel. Truly, you do have quite an obsession with these 2 countries. It's OK, we'll let you vent a bit. That's what we're here for. Occassionally, someone will reign you in a bit when you get a bit too offbeat.
I humbly and eagerly await and look forward to your next conspiracy theory and story of the week.
langleygirl: Did you grow up watching Star Trek and The Twilight Zone??????
Yeah, I did---religiously---along with the X-Files. Arriba!!!
LILLYLADY: I definitely am not worried Ray. You humor me quite a bit and I bust up laughing. Somehow you come across as "If ya can't dazzle us all with brilliance, then bewilder us all with bull$*@#."
We all know that you love to rattle a cage a bit(especially mine) so I as well as others just let you rant on a bit with your conspiracy of the week story. You read like a suspense thriller every week...quite entertaining as you say.
It must be very spiritually therapeutic for you to release all your frustrations about the world to us, especially your frustration with the U.S. and Israel. Truly, you do have quite an obsession with these 2 countries. It's OK, we'll let you vent a bit. That's what we're here for. Occassionally, someone will reign you in a bit when you get a bit too offbeat.
I humbly and eagerly await and look forward to your next conspiracy theory and story of the week.
We all know that you love to rattle a cage a bit(especially mine) so I as well as others just let you rant on a bit with your conspiracy of the week story. You read like a suspense thriller every week...quite entertaining as you say.
It must be very spiritually therapeutic for you to release all your frustrations about the world to us, especially your frustration with the U.S. and Israel. Truly, you do have quite an obsession with these 2 countries. It's OK, we'll let you vent a bit. That's what we're here for. Occassionally, someone will reign you in a bit when you get a bit too offbeat.
I humbly and eagerly await and look forward to your next conspiracy theory and story of the week.
And we all know that you love the right links and all oppressive, supremacy policies. Power instead of moderation seems what you are for.
Beautiful!
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Conrad73: Beautiful!
Son, it is up to them, right? (leaving aside now the terrible control of men which is another problem, present in our society too)It is exactly like when people see naked human beings in the jungle and say "How awful!! savages!!" ...so? can they prove they are something better? even not inferior?
I hope you see my point. (I bet you would love a girl wearing that...it brings more surprise at the very last moment...let me tell you.....
)Antjo39: Son, it is up to them, right? (leaving aside now the terrible control of men which is another problem, present in our society too)
It is exactly like when people see naked human beings in the jungle and say "How awful!! savages!!" ...so? can they prove they are something better? even not inferior?
I hope you see my point. (I bet you would love a girl wearing that...it brings more surprise at the very last moment...let me tell you.....)
Depending What/How much she's wearing underneath.It is exactly like when people see naked human beings in the jungle and say "How awful!! savages!!" ...so? can they prove they are something better? even not inferior?
I hope you see my point. (I bet you would love a girl wearing that...it brings more surprise at the very last moment...let me tell you.....)
Conrad73: Depending What/How much she's wearing underneath.
The more underneath, the better... it will extend the strip-tease session until making your brain blow up... and that is the only relationship I can find between blowing things up and garment... Costapacket: From my experience politics and religion can be debated but noboby gives way and it usually ends in a fight.
Pleased to meet you once again.
Usually but not always... it depends on the sanity of the minds into the discussion. Pleased to meet you once again.
Wearing Bike Helmets down-under has been banned for years by Banks etc, seems to me pretty much the same
Conrad73: Beautiful!
this is the picture
I DONT WANT TO SEE IN MY COUNTRY PURELY FOR SECURITY REASONS .I AM NOT PUTTING UP WITH THIS. ARE THESE BOTH WOMEN DO WE KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE UNDER THEIR (TRAD DRESS ?)
Antjo39: Usually but not always... it depends on the sanity of the minds into the discussion.
I disagree as nobdy will give up their religion based on somebodies point of view and as for politics im willing to be swayed if shown a better way but most wont.
Antjo39: Okay, I agree with your points at that level, and certainly I know burkas are not a pure religion piece of garment. In my country, during the Spanish Colony, women wore a piece of garment very close to that.
My rejection comes from the point I siad before: how much of Anti-arabic-culture sentiment is hidden behind this? how much a burka has been equalised with extremist madness? how much more feud will this bring?
And these have been the points of my discussion here.
I can also see the way men try to control women by making them cover their face and all that, but even if people in the West can protest about that, we can never forget that we are not so so far from that either.
My rejection comes from the point I siad before: how much of Anti-arabic-culture sentiment is hidden behind this? how much a burka has been equalised with extremist madness? how much more feud will this bring?
And these have been the points of my discussion here.
I can also see the way men try to control women by making them cover their face and all that, but even if people in the West can protest about that, we can never forget that we are not so so far from that either.
words of wisdom
Antjo39: Okay, I agree with your points at that level, and certainly I know burkas are not a pure religion piece of garment. In my country, during the Spanish Colony, women wore a piece of garment very close to that.
My rejection comes from the point I siad before: how much of Anti-arabic-culture sentiment is hidden behind this? how much a burka has been equalised with extremist madness? how much more feud will this bring?
And these have been the points of my discussion here.
I can also see the way men try to control women by making them cover their face and all that, but even if people in the West can protest about that, we can never forget that we are not so so far from that either.
My rejection comes from the point I siad before: how much of Anti-arabic-culture sentiment is hidden behind this? how much a burka has been equalised with extremist madness? how much more feud will this bring?
And these have been the points of my discussion here.
I can also see the way men try to control women by making them cover their face and all that, but even if people in the West can protest about that, we can never forget that we are not so so far from that either.
In France I would argue that for them NOT to ban the Birka would be showing religious favouritism. They have ALWAYS made a point of treating secularism almost like a religion. The problem comes when other countries in Europe try to ban the Birka, then we definitely need to look very closely at the reasons given and the exceptions made to other religions, like the mourning veil I believe is worn by orthodox Jews. Until Islam starts reigning in and ostracising fanatical Imams and worshippers things will get progressively worse for the moderate worshippers of Islam and this is not something that can be done from outside the religion, no amount of laws targeting religious hatred will work while worshippers continue to turn a blind eye to the intolerance and hatred amongst their own congregation, and that applies to ALL religions.
LILLYLADY: C'mon Ray...get real! Your kidding yourself if you actually believe what you just wrote. I'm not even going to rebuke your cause explanations. Perhaps some other CSer will give you the support you desire for your cause. Good luck and good day!! Peace be with you.
Well actually LillyLady I class your opinion on world events right up there with those of Bush, Blair, Sarkozy, and the rest of the neocon cheerleaders of the Bush era.
For a few years most of the world shared their distorted worldview.
But between the rise of globalism and the exposure of the lies upon which that worldwiew was based, Sarkozy is like a dinosaur who has outlived his era.
In France he's not just a lame duck. He's already been plucked.
He's like Tony Blair was in his last years, already abandoned even by his own party, no popular support, no support in the parliament, virtually ignored by everyone, but still occupyihng the seat.
That's why he creates "issues" like the Burqa.
To pretend that he is still in charge and doing something.
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The main problem in Cyprus is the invasion by the Turkish army in 1974. Even in the Greek part of Cyprus (the only legal part) there are many Muslims and many mosques but very few Islamists and women with veil. Never saw a burqa here.
Please forgive me for not being clear!
Thank you for clarifying that. I am absolutely fascinated with your input, Icchis and Trish's. That is so different over there than anything I've even seen over here in all my life.
Unfortunately, if people would be wearing burquas in public around here, they would be racial profiled for sure and asked to remove the covering so they could be picked up by the police. Their activities would also be closely scrutinized. Here it is law to see the face. If they want to cover their face, then they can do it in their own home. That is the rule.
I live in the Baptist Bible Belt so anyone who would be radically different than how most people here would conservatively dress in public would have some major problems on their hands. The police would not go for that as a religious thing by us I can assure you. The head covering would come off when out in public but a hijab would be allowed.
Thank the jihaddists for making our laws change. If they want to live here then they need to abide by our laws. We don't change our laws to accomodate them.