Is organized religion based entirely on fear? (176)
avecaim: hmm is that Piaget?
interesting
interesting
Not Jean Piaget
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wonderworker: I was raised by an old Woman..
She taught me to speak and read..
Then she showed me that the basest of all things was to be afraid...
She taught me to speak and read..
Then she showed me that the basest of all things was to be afraid...
It seems she 'also taught to speak and read'.
Maybe she meant, 'be cautious', and when you were a child(?), it felt like fear?!
galaxy
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StressFree: ...........
Religion takes us away from our true selves, religion makes us look outward instead of inward...and it uses fear to do so. There is no place for self truth and personal spiritual experience. You have to accept the religions doctrine, or you will not be saved and go to heaven.
............
Religion takes us away from our true selves, religion makes us look outward instead of inward...and it uses fear to do so. There is no place for self truth and personal spiritual experience. You have to accept the religions doctrine, or you will not be saved and go to heaven.
............
Great post Stress.
Holy books are full of everything anybody needs to justify anything they could possibly think about having as a belief, from those needing comfort to those needing discipline, including those who justify killing and hurting others, and those who condemn it.
The poor, the rich, old, young, and weak, strong, homely and outgoing, dead, ill, well, hurt, kind, miserly and anything thing else anyone can think of, are all covered loosely in one of those, and other books, as examples of what we should and should not do, or become, or aim for.
Everything, except the freedom to reject all of it, if we choose to, without fear of supposedly dire consequences.....
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avecaim: what if it's extortion
I thought it was.......
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wonderworker: ......Or only partially...
Pretty much, yes.... the best way of controlling the masses IS fear, though I also agree with the remark incorporating GUILT!
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More than fear, I think it's based on those " collection " baskets they pass around at mass time...
Aside from all those other places where you can leave your " donation" at the church...
Money to be used only to send priests to Africa and such places to spread the " good word", you understand...
Aside from all those other places where you can leave your " donation" at the church...
Money to be used only to send priests to Africa and such places to spread the " good word", you understand...
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rioplatense: More than fear, I think it's based on those " collection " baskets they pass around at mass time...
Aside from all those other places where you can leave your " donation" at the church...
Money to be used only to send priests to Africa and such places to spread the " good word", you understand...
Aside from all those other places where you can leave your " donation" at the church...
Money to be used only to send priests to Africa and such places to spread the " good word", you understand...
Beats me why people give it to them in the first place.........
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rioplatense: More than fear, I think it's based on those " collection " baskets they pass around at mass time...
Aside from all those other places where you can leave your " donation" at the church...
Money to be used only to send priests to Africa and such places to spread the " good word", you understand...
Aside from all those other places where you can leave your " donation" at the church...
Money to be used only to send priests to Africa and such places to spread the " good word", you understand...
And the village is making its Sunday collection in church
The church wobbles 'twixt hell and heaven's crumbling perch
Unnoticed the money box loudly endorses the shame
As the world that Christ fought is supported by using his name.
And O how the sea she roars with laughter
And howls with the dancing wind
To see the dying lying there, obeying.
Mcgoohan's Blues.
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wonderworker: Thanks for the time and thought you put into this.
Spiritual Evolution....The Paradigm Shift...Sounds like more food for thought to me.What would be the focal point?You have more info than I.Bet you a beer there would be interest.
Well said Stress.
Spiritual Evolution....The Paradigm Shift...Sounds like more food for thought to me.What would be the focal point?You have more info than I.Bet you a beer there would be interest.
Well said Stress.
No problem wonderworker
Quality thread that gets to the root of all this we experience individually and collectively.The focal point? Peace and harmony in society and on earth. How do we get there apparently is up for fierce debate
I firmly (not vehemently) believe we are at a point of a particular cycle where radical change is "breaking on through". History becomes evolution if you will...official version vs new discoveries = integral element of the paradigm shift.
Another piece to the puzzle is science. I can't nutshell everything in a tidy post, but I can say that I've been a huge Carl Sagan fan since I was a kid. Loved him on tv with his show "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage" when I grew up (PBS channel) and the first big league book I ever read as a kid was "Cosmos".
My two favorite Sagan quotes: "Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality." And "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
The obvious point is that scientific breakthroughs change the way we see ourselves, the world, and cosmos. Also, is there ever an end to scientific breakthroughs? I've heard some exotic theories of how new scientific breakthroughs were what caused an end to a civilization on here in our past that is not accepted within the official history version. Supposedly Mother Earth reacted to balance things out which brought on a new civilization and culture. Interesting enough, that is the Mayan prophecy for 2012
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StressFree: No problem wonderworker Quality thread that gets to the root of all this we experience individually and collectively.
The focal point? Peace and harmony in society and on earth. How do we get there apparently is up for fierce debate
I firmly (not vehemently) believe we are at a point of a particular cycle where radical change is "breaking on through". History becomes evolution if you will...official version vs new discoveries = integral element of the paradigm shift.
Another piece to the puzzle is science. I can't nutshell everything in a tidy post, but I can say that I've been a huge Carl Sagan fan since I was a kid. Loved him on tv with his show "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage" when I grew up (PBS channel) and the first big league book I ever read as a kid was "Cosmos".
My two favorite Sagan quotes: "Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality." And "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
The obvious point is that scientific breakthroughs change the way we see ourselves, the world, and cosmos. Also, is there ever an end to scientific breakthroughs? I've heard some exotic theories of how new scientific breakthroughs were what caused an end to a civilization on here in our past that is not accepted within the official history version. Supposedly Mother Earth reacted to balance things out which brought on a new civilization and culture. Interesting enough, that is the Mayan prophecy for 2012
The focal point? Peace and harmony in society and on earth. How do we get there apparently is up for fierce debate
I firmly (not vehemently) believe we are at a point of a particular cycle where radical change is "breaking on through". History becomes evolution if you will...official version vs new discoveries = integral element of the paradigm shift.
Another piece to the puzzle is science. I can't nutshell everything in a tidy post, but I can say that I've been a huge Carl Sagan fan since I was a kid. Loved him on tv with his show "Cosmos: A Personal Voyage" when I grew up (PBS channel) and the first big league book I ever read as a kid was "Cosmos".
My two favorite Sagan quotes: "Science is not only compatible with spirituality; it is a profound source of spirituality." And "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."
The obvious point is that scientific breakthroughs change the way we see ourselves, the world, and cosmos. Also, is there ever an end to scientific breakthroughs? I've heard some exotic theories of how new scientific breakthroughs were what caused an end to a civilization on here in our past that is not accepted within the official history version. Supposedly Mother Earth reacted to balance things out which brought on a new civilization and culture. Interesting enough, that is the Mayan prophecy for 2012
I shared your enthusiasm for COSMOS and for Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" There is an earlier work by Gilbert Ryle called "Dilemmas" that would interest you if not already.
Sagan makes the point that Science is SELF-CORRECTING which Dogma cannot be.
It sends me into hysterics when the Vatican is forced to admit error.Lifting the Excommunicae of Galileo after centuries was hilarious,but the faithful either didn't notice,didn't care or simply did not understand.Protestant Fundamentalists have lately coined the doctrine of "Continuing Revelation' to provide a vehicle for changing doctrine as needed.In our time they will use it to concede the basic model of organic evolution.
Thinking people will notice that the once-infallible is omniscient no more.
Science is inductive.There can be no end to it,no last word.As Hawking said:"...for then we would know the mind of God"
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wonderworker: I shared your enthusiasm for COSMOS and for Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" There is an earlier work by Gilbert Ryle called "Dilemmas" that would interest you if not already.
Sagan makes the point that Science is SELF-CORRECTING which Dogma cannot be.
It sends me into hysterics when the Vatican is forced to admit error.Lifting the Excommunicae of Galileo after centuries was hilarious,but the faithful either didn't notice,didn't care or simply did not understand.Protestant Fundamentalists have lately coined the doctrine of "Continuing Revelation' to provide a vehicle for changing doctrine as needed.In our time they will use it to concede the basic model of organic evolution.
Thinking people will notice that the once-infallible is omniscient no more.
Science is inductive.There can be no end to it,no last word.As Hawking said:"...for then we would know the mind of God"
Sagan makes the point that Science is SELF-CORRECTING which Dogma cannot be.
It sends me into hysterics when the Vatican is forced to admit error.Lifting the Excommunicae of Galileo after centuries was hilarious,but the faithful either didn't notice,didn't care or simply did not understand.Protestant Fundamentalists have lately coined the doctrine of "Continuing Revelation' to provide a vehicle for changing doctrine as needed.In our time they will use it to concede the basic model of organic evolution.
Thinking people will notice that the once-infallible is omniscient no more.
Science is inductive.There can be no end to it,no last word.As Hawking said:"...for then we would know the mind of God"
Agreed
Awesome post and great point.There is no end and no end to a new beginning. In some places in the cosmos (vibrational plane), it's a perpetual cycle with a new beginning to the same tragic end. A reality shared by many in this world. The others see it as a radical, dramatic, apocalyptic, and desperately needed new change and beginning en route to peace, happiness, and harmony.
Matter and energy are infinitely complex. No end to it. The God concept itself is going through changes.
"People are becoming more powerful," says Andrei Linde, a cosmologist based at Stanford University in California. "Maybe it's time we redefine God as something more sophisticated than just the creator of the universe."
I've always felt that we are the Gods in the sense that we do the actual creating. Thoughts are powerful energy waves, and energy waves can change matter...or our reality. Call it self spirituality and science making-out.
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StressFree: ..... Call it self spirituality and science making-out.
I just love that analagy.....
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StressFree: Agreed Awesome post and great point.
There is no end and no end to a new beginning. In some places in the cosmos (vibrational plane), it's a perpetual cycle with a new beginning to the same tragic end. A reality shared by many in this world. The others see it as a radical, dramatic, apocalyptic, and desperately needed new change and beginning en route to peace, happiness, and harmony.
Matter and energy are infinitely complex. No end to it. The God concept itself is going through changes.
"People are becoming more powerful," says Andrei Linde, a cosmologist based at Stanford University in California. "Maybe it's time we redefine God as something more sophisticated than just the creator of the universe."
I've always felt that we are the Gods in the sense that we do the actual creating. Thoughts are powerful energy waves, and energy waves can change matter...or our reality. Call it self spirituality and science making-out.
There is no end and no end to a new beginning. In some places in the cosmos (vibrational plane), it's a perpetual cycle with a new beginning to the same tragic end. A reality shared by many in this world. The others see it as a radical, dramatic, apocalyptic, and desperately needed new change and beginning en route to peace, happiness, and harmony.
Matter and energy are infinitely complex. No end to it. The God concept itself is going through changes.
"People are becoming more powerful," says Andrei Linde, a cosmologist based at Stanford University in California. "Maybe it's time we redefine God as something more sophisticated than just the creator of the universe."
I've always felt that we are the Gods in the sense that we do the actual creating. Thoughts are powerful energy waves, and energy waves can change matter...or our reality. Call it self spirituality and science making-out.
If I were to label you based on this and earlier posts What comes to mind is TRANSCENDENTALIST or GNOSTIC.Correct me if that is amiss.
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wonderworker: If I were to label you based on this and earlier posts What comes to mind is TRANSCENDENTALIST or GNOSTIC.Correct me if that is amiss.
If you see me that way...transcendentalist. It's fairly accurate.
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I don't have the time to read thru all the posts so if I repeat what someone has already said then I apologise
what amazes me is that throughout the world in all cultures no matter how remote and removed from the modern world n influences, the one thing that unites us all is a belief in a creative energy ..
be this big bang theory, the book of genesis, spacemen or whatever, we all have a story of how the universe came to be n how the planet came to be populated
now without researching into the psychology of this, it makes me wonder if we all have a basic need to know where we came from..
for those amongst us who believe that this creative energy continues to exert a force upon our existence, it is advisable to ask ourselves what comes directly from this energy and what is "man made" interpretation being exerted upon our lives..
that said perhaps we can go on to ask ourselves what feelings do we experience that draw us to, or repel us from our chosen belief system ?
personally I draw comfort from my belief system n when I attend a place of worship it feels like going home, safe, secure & loving
I attend because I want to, when I want to, with the understanding that my creator accepts me as the flawed human being it created.
what amazes me is that throughout the world in all cultures no matter how remote and removed from the modern world n influences, the one thing that unites us all is a belief in a creative energy ..
be this big bang theory, the book of genesis, spacemen or whatever, we all have a story of how the universe came to be n how the planet came to be populated
now without researching into the psychology of this, it makes me wonder if we all have a basic need to know where we came from..
for those amongst us who believe that this creative energy continues to exert a force upon our existence, it is advisable to ask ourselves what comes directly from this energy and what is "man made" interpretation being exerted upon our lives..
that said perhaps we can go on to ask ourselves what feelings do we experience that draw us to, or repel us from our chosen belief system ?
personally I draw comfort from my belief system n when I attend a place of worship it feels like going home, safe, secure & loving
I attend because I want to, when I want to, with the understanding that my creator accepts me as the flawed human being it created.
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LethalLove: Hmmm...if I had to give you some form of definitive label, Stress....it would be to say that I find you 'Conscious'.
Fairly accurate
and the label is broadening...there is no end to my label
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And there we were broadly speaking on a wide ranging subject in philosophical terms, and this overwhelming need to narrow and label, and define, and categorise, and box things, comes into play again.
Wonder what a world without labels would look like? Would there be chaos in our brains?
Looks like there might still be a very long way to go...
With belief systems there does seem to be a need to have people with similar beliefs around. It's like we collect people to be in our comfort zone, so we latch on to what seems familiar, and give it a box or drawer, and label, in our filing cabinets, to be examined in light of our own discoveries as we experience new ones.
It would appear that in order to change our present belief systems, we'd need to change our thought patterns too, and the way we actually accumulate and process information.
Wonder what a world without labels would look like? Would there be chaos in our brains?
Looks like there might still be a very long way to go...
With belief systems there does seem to be a need to have people with similar beliefs around. It's like we collect people to be in our comfort zone, so we latch on to what seems familiar, and give it a box or drawer, and label, in our filing cabinets, to be examined in light of our own discoveries as we experience new ones.
It would appear that in order to change our present belief systems, we'd need to change our thought patterns too, and the way we actually accumulate and process information.
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LethalLove: Yes!!!
When I read the post of wonderworker's....giving stress a label... it had me thinking, what is that?
Isn't it only for the my Self...the ego, to have a reference point...and ironically, only MY reference point.?
I was giggling as I was typing my post to Stress...thinking...I hope he bites, and gives me some food for thought... and instead, you did Ging...
When I read the post of wonderworker's....giving stress a label... it had me thinking, what is that?
Isn't it only for the my Self...the ego, to have a reference point...and ironically, only MY reference point.?
I was giggling as I was typing my post to Stress...thinking...I hope he bites, and gives me some food for thought... and instead, you did Ging...
I'm sure he will too. He is much more profound than I am.
It occurred to me that if we adopt a "now" mindset then there would be no need for belief in anything, (even though that is a belief too). The times I remind myself to do it, (stay in the present), I find I can't sustain it for long, but there is a complete absence of fear, no projections for a future that hasn't arrived, no harping on a past or it's experiences, in fact no (or very little) mind/ego activity at all, just experiencing the pleasure of being in the present second or moment or whatever.
The mind might then, (if not clogged with useless stuff), be put to better use creating or phlosophising pure concepts or abstract concepts, growing the parts of the brain that actually think on a higher plain.....
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There are certain things which need to be feared (especially at a young age) - until a self-realized position is attained, where your decision becomes wholly your decision.
Fear comes from non-understanding - and children don't understand many things - so thier own internal fear of certain situations, does serve a purpose.
Until and unless there is a feeling that 'stuff' has been understood, fear is a form of protection against misdirection.
galaxy
I was raised by an old Woman..
She taught me to speak and read..
Then she showed me that the basest of all things was to be afraid...