Science: Theory & Fact - 50+ New "Habitable" Planets? (49)
Correct me if I'm wrong but even our own galaxy is 100,000 light years across so even if we could ever reach near light speed I still think these planets are out of our reach.
But perhaps by some quantum teleportation ......
But perhaps by some quantum teleportation ......
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RDM59: Correct me if I'm wrong but even our own galaxy is 100,000 light years across so even if we could ever reach near light speed I still think these planets are out of our reach.
But perhaps by some quantum teleportation ......
But perhaps by some quantum teleportation ......
Quite right RD. Thanks for commenting.
I think FTL travel is, in fact, possible. At current theoretical levels, wormhole technology is possible, if currently improbable. What's critical at this point is if our observations of "habitable zone" planets are even viable. Do these planets even exist, and if they do, how can we be sure enough to invest ourselves in travel to them?
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Galactic_bodhi: Quite right RD. Thanks for commenting.
I think FTL travel is, in fact, possible. At current theoretical levels, wormhole technology is possible, if currently improbable. What's critical at this point is if our observations of "habitable zone" planets are even viable. Do these planets even exist, and if they do, how can we be sure enough to invest ourselves in travel to them?
I think FTL travel is, in fact, possible. At current theoretical levels, wormhole technology is possible, if currently improbable. What's critical at this point is if our observations of "habitable zone" planets are even viable. Do these planets even exist, and if they do, how can we be sure enough to invest ourselves in travel to them?
I think the chance of them existing is more of a probability than them not existing. Visual conformation is of course a necessity and I am confident the cosmologist will get that parted sorted soon enough. As for FTL .... your enlightenment would be most appreciated ....
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RDM59: I think the chance of them existing is more of a probability than them not existing. Visual conformation is of course a necessity and I am confident the cosmologist will get that parted sorted soon enough. As for FTL .... your enlightenment would be most appreciated ....
In response to: Lorentzian traversable wormholes would allow travel from one part of the universe to another part of that same universe very quickly or would allow travel from one universe to another. The possibility of traversable wormholes in general relativity was first demonstrated by Kip Thorne and his graduate student Mike Morris in a 1988 paper; for this reason, the type of traversable wormhole they proposed, held open by a spherical shell of exotic matter, is referred to as a Morris-Thorne wormhole. Later, other types of traversable wormholes were discovered as allowable solutions to the equations of general relativity, including a variety analyzed in a 1989 paper by Matt Visser, in which a path through the wormhole can be made in which the traversing path does not pass through a region of exotic matter. However in the pure Gauss-Bonnet theory (a modification to general relativity involving extra spatial dimensions which is sometimes studied in the context of brane cosmology) exotic matter is not needed in order for wormholes to exist- they can exist even with no matter. A type held open by negative mass cosmic strings was put forth by Visser in collaboration with Cramer et al., in which it was proposed that such wormholes could have been naturally created in the early universe.
Wormholes connect two points in spacetime, which means that they would in principle allow travel in time, as well as in space. In 1988, Morris, Thorne and Yurtsever worked out explicitly how to convert a wormhole traversing space into one traversing time. However, according to general relativity it would not be possible to use a wormhole to travel back to a time earlier than when the wormhole was first converted into a time machine by accelerating one of its two mouths.
Wormholes connect two points in spacetime, which means that they would in principle allow travel in time, as well as in space. In 1988, Morris, Thorne and Yurtsever worked out explicitly how to convert a wormhole traversing space into one traversing time. However, according to general relativity it would not be possible to use a wormhole to travel back to a time earlier than when the wormhole was first converted into a time machine by accelerating one of its two mouths.
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Negative mass would possess some strange properties, such as accelerating in the direction opposite of applied force. For example, an object with negative inertial mass and positive electric charge would accelerate away from objects with negative charge, and towards objects with positive charge, the opposite of the normal rule that like charges repel and opposite charges attract. This behaviour can produce bizarre results: for instance, a gas containing a mixture of positive and negative matter particles will have the positive matter portion increase in temperature without bound. However, the negative matter portion gains negative temperature at the same rate, again balancing out.
Despite being completely inconsistent with a common-sense approach and the expected behavior of "normal" matter, negative mass is completely mathematically consistent and introduces no violation of conservation of momentum or energy. It is used in certain speculative theories, such as on the construction of wormholes. The closest known real representative of such exotic matter is the region of pseudo-negative pressure density produced by the Casimir effect. - Wiki
Despite being completely inconsistent with a common-sense approach and the expected behavior of "normal" matter, negative mass is completely mathematically consistent and introduces no violation of conservation of momentum or energy. It is used in certain speculative theories, such as on the construction of wormholes. The closest known real representative of such exotic matter is the region of pseudo-negative pressure density produced by the Casimir effect. - Wiki
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Galactic_bodhi: Negative mass would possess some strange properties, such as accelerating in the direction opposite of applied force. For example, an object with negative inertial mass and positive electric charge would accelerate away from objects with negative charge, and towards objects with positive charge, the opposite of the normal rule that like charges repel and opposite charges attract. This behaviour can produce bizarre results: for instance, a gas containing a mixture of positive and negative matter particles will have the positive matter portion increase in temperature without bound. However, the negative matter portion gains negative temperature at the same rate, again balancing out.
Despite being completely inconsistent with a common-sense approach and the expected behavior of "normal" matter, negative mass is completely mathematically consistent and introduces no violation of conservation of momentum or energy. It is used in certain speculative theories, such as on the construction of wormholes. The closest known real representative of such exotic matter is the region of pseudo-negative pressure density produced by the Casimir effect. - Wiki
Despite being completely inconsistent with a common-sense approach and the expected behavior of "normal" matter, negative mass is completely mathematically consistent and introduces no violation of conservation of momentum or energy. It is used in certain speculative theories, such as on the construction of wormholes. The closest known real representative of such exotic matter is the region of pseudo-negative pressure density produced by the Casimir effect. - Wiki
It's interesting to note the concept of possibly using the Casimir effect in space to produce a region of quantum uncertainty large enough to produce a wormhole. While strictly theoretical at this point, as we expand out into our own solar system this might not be as far-fetched as people might think.
Food for thought anyway. Its' the incorrigible sci-fi writer in me that makes me think of things like this in hard-scientific ways. Sci-fi of today is often sci-fact of tomorrow.
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In response to: The causes of the Casimir effect are described by quantum field theory, which states that all of the various fundamental fields, such as the electromagnetic field, must be quantized at each and every point in space.
In a simplified view, a "field" in physics may be envisioned as if space were filled with interconnected vibrating balls and springs, and the strength of the field can be visualized as the displacement of a ball from its rest position. Vibrations in this field propagate and are governed by the appropriate wave equation for the particular field in question.
The second quantization of quantum field theory requires that each such ball-spring combination be quantized, that is, that the strength of the field be quantized at each point in space. At the most basic level, the field at each point in space is a simple harmonic oscillator, and its quantization places a quantum harmonic oscillator at each point. Excitations of the field correspond to the elementary particles of particle physics.
However, even the vacuum has a vastly complex structure, so all calculations of quantum field theory must be made in relation to this model of the vacuum. - wiki
In a simplified view, a "field" in physics may be envisioned as if space were filled with interconnected vibrating balls and springs, and the strength of the field can be visualized as the displacement of a ball from its rest position. Vibrations in this field propagate and are governed by the appropriate wave equation for the particular field in question.
The second quantization of quantum field theory requires that each such ball-spring combination be quantized, that is, that the strength of the field be quantized at each point in space. At the most basic level, the field at each point in space is a simple harmonic oscillator, and its quantization places a quantum harmonic oscillator at each point. Excitations of the field correspond to the elementary particles of particle physics.
However, even the vacuum has a vastly complex structure, so all calculations of quantum field theory must be made in relation to this model of the vacuum. - wiki
Vacuum is the natural state of outer-space. At some point, the electromagnetic properties of exotic metals will be employed to create negative vacuum energy (possibly with the use of superconductive and nanotech as well), which will introduce an unquantifiable uncertainty across the whole field. Such non-local effects have enormous potential for traversible wormholes.
But, again, this theoretical tech requires a target. It will require enormous amounts of energy, and the Laws of Thermodynamics make this expenditure of energy extremely wasteful if we don't have a definite and pre-determined target.
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RDM59: I think the chance of them existing is more of a probability than them not existing. Visual conformation is of course a necessity and I am confident the cosmologist will get that parted sorted soon enough. As for FTL .... your enlightenment would be most appreciated ....
FTL = Faster Than Light.It seems only right if CS has a religion forum there should also be a SCIENCE forum.
If one looks at the cost/benefit analysis of traveling to another habitable planet in out galaxy, it becomes clear that this will probably never be feasible at least not sending a whole human being. James Blish wrote about space colonization in his book series called "The Seedling Stars" which involved sending capsules containing DNA to distant planets to spread intelligent life throughout the galaxy.
I sometimes wonder if that is not how human life actually began on earth. Maybe that's why humans are so interested in exploring outer space and our own origins, it may be in our genes. We are different enough from all other forms of animal life on earth to lend credence to an extraterrestrial origin of our species. Are we similar to apes merely through coincidence? Was this outer worldly DNA ingested by an ape a half million years ago, thus giving rise to a new race of intelligent beings? If this was the mechanism, could it have been picked up by a different animal say a wolf? How would humans look in that scenario?
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ooby_dooby: FTL = Faster Than Light.
It seems only right if CS has a religion forum there should also be a SCIENCE forum.
If one looks at the cost/benefit analysis of traveling to another habitable planet in out galaxy, it becomes clear that this will probably never be feasible at least not sending a whole human being. James Blish wrote about space colonization in his book series called "The Seedling Stars" which involved sending capsules containing DNA to distant planets to spread intelligent life throughout the galaxy.
I sometimes wonder if that is not how human life actually began on earth. Maybe that's why humans are so interested in exploring outer space and our own origins, it may be in our genes. We are different enough from all other forms of animal life on earth to lend credence to an extraterrestrial origin of our species. Are we similar to apes merely through coincidence? Was this outer worldly DNA ingested by an ape a half million years ago, thus giving rise to a new race of intelligent beings? If this was the mechanism, could it have been picked up by a different animal say a wolf? How would humans look in that scenario?
It seems only right if CS has a religion forum there should also be a SCIENCE forum.
If one looks at the cost/benefit analysis of traveling to another habitable planet in out galaxy, it becomes clear that this will probably never be feasible at least not sending a whole human being. James Blish wrote about space colonization in his book series called "The Seedling Stars" which involved sending capsules containing DNA to distant planets to spread intelligent life throughout the galaxy.
I sometimes wonder if that is not how human life actually began on earth. Maybe that's why humans are so interested in exploring outer space and our own origins, it may be in our genes. We are different enough from all other forms of animal life on earth to lend credence to an extraterrestrial origin of our species. Are we similar to apes merely through coincidence? Was this outer worldly DNA ingested by an ape a half million years ago, thus giving rise to a new race of intelligent beings? If this was the mechanism, could it have been picked up by a different animal say a wolf? How would humans look in that scenario?
I'm not sure such galactic seeding is necessary really, OD. Scientists have already debunked Hoyle's fallacy, so life (in terms of ordering and self-replication contrary to the laws of entropy) may have generated from primordial soup nearly instantaneously, because of the tricks quantum uncertainty can play with the Three Laws. Hoyle's fallacy only applies to classical mechanics, and must be set aside when dealing with the looking-glass world of the quantum.
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Galactic_bodhi: I'm not sure such galactic seeding is necessary really, OD. Scientists have already debunked Hoyle's fallacy, so life (in terms of ordering and self-replication contrary to the laws of entropy) may have generated from primordial soup nearly instantaneously, because of the tricks quantum uncertainty can play with the Three Laws. Hoyle's fallacy only applies to classical mechanics, and must be set aside when dealing with the looking-glass world of the quantum.
In response to: In biological systems self-organization is a process in which pattern at the global level of a system emerges solely from numerous interactions among the lower-level components of the system. Moreover, the rules specifying interactions among the system's components are executed using only local information, without reference to the global pattern. - Camazine, Deneubourg, Franks, Sneyd, Theraulaz, Bonabeau, Self-Organization in Biological Systems, Princeton University Press, 2003. ISBN 0-691-11624-5 --ISBN 0-691-01211-3 (pbk.) p. 8
Corning's definition of emergence:
In response to: "Rules, or laws, have no causal efficacy; they do not in fact “generate” anything. They serve merely to describe regularities and consistent relationships in nature. These patterns may be very illuminating and important, but the underlying causal agencies must be separately specified (though often they are not). But that aside, the game of chess illustrates precisely why any laws or rules of emergence and evolution are insufficient. Even in a chess game, you cannot use the rules to predict “history” — i.e., the course of any given game. Indeed, you cannot even reliably predict the next move in a chess game. Why? Because the “system” involves more than the rules of the game. It also includes the players and their unfolding, moment-by-moment decisions among a very large number of available options at each choice point. The game of chess is inescapably historical, even though it is also constrained and shaped by a set of rules, not to mention the laws of physics. Moreover, and this is a key point, the game of chess is also shaped by teleonomic, cybernetic, feedback-driven influences. It is not simply a self-ordered process; it involves an organized, “purposeful” activity." (Corning 2002)
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The thought of traveling great distances ( light years ) in relativly short piriods of time is one that at this time seems not likely . I do not know what tecnology will exsist in the future so it might be someday possible . I use the example of sailing ships of several centurs ago . It took columbus mounths to reach the new world in the best technology of his time . We can now do it in hours with jet aircraft . This is something that was unconcevable back then . I can only imagine what new discoveries will be in the comming centuries .
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Frankinstien: I use the example of sailing ships of several centurs ago . It took columbus mounths to reach the new world in the best technology of his time . We can now do it in hours with jet aircraft . This is something that was unconcevable back then . I can only imagine what new discoveries will be in the comming centuries .
This is my point exactly Frank. Thank you for your comment.
This sort of tech will come as a combination of several disciplines, but will ultimately be based on Bohm's holographic model of reality. What can only be imagined today, in its most rudimentary sense, will come about as part of the snowball effect learning curve of science and industry. The more we know, the faster we learn, and the more theory we can apply in engineering to prove the current hypotheses.
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Galactic_bodhi: I'm not sure such galactic seeding is necessary really, OD. Scientists have already debunked Hoyle's fallacy, so life (in terms of ordering and self-replication contrary to the laws of entropy) may have generated from primordial soup nearly instantaneously, because of the tricks quantum uncertainty can play with the Three Laws. Hoyle's fallacy only applies to classical mechanics, and must be set aside when dealing with the looking-glass world of the quantum.
Let me clarify this statement a little. Thermodynamics is the root of Hoyle's junkyard 747 fallacy. In classical thermodynamics, entropy is part of the second law, meaning there is always some loss of energy in any transformation due to sheer randomness (entropy is defined as the a tendency toward randomness). Thus, nature tends toward decay, as everything loses energy. Humanity has yet to create life from a primordial soup because of this.
But the problem is the very act of observation. Classical mechanics remain collapsed into classical behaviors, including the laws of entropy. In the beginning, there was no such observer, and everything was quantum. Out of this life began. Boom! Entrance stage right. And "God" said, "Let there be measurement."
And that's when all the trouble started.
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I caught that on the news last night too...its really exciting! This could very well change everything. I cant wait to hear what they reveal 
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Galactic_bodhi: Let me clarify this statement a little. Thermodynamics is the root of Hoyle's junkyard 747 fallacy. In classical thermodynamics, entropy is part of the second law, meaning there is always some loss of energy in any transformation due to sheer randomness (entropy is defined as the a tendency toward randomness). Thus, nature tends toward decay, as everything loses energy. Humanity has yet to create life from a primordial soup because of this.
But the problem is the very act of observation. Classical mechanics remain collapsed into classical behaviors, including the laws of entropy. In the beginning, there was no such observer, and everything was quantum. Out of this life began. Boom! Entrance stage right. And "God" said, "Let there be measurement."
And that's when all the trouble started.
But the problem is the very act of observation. Classical mechanics remain collapsed into classical behaviors, including the laws of entropy. In the beginning, there was no such observer, and everything was quantum. Out of this life began. Boom! Entrance stage right. And "God" said, "Let there be measurement."
And that's when all the trouble started.
IF life stems from the primordial soup then the universe could be full of life or intelligence that we can neither perceive or understand.
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Galactic_bodhi: Trish suggested a new category for science to the mods, but I can't find the thread now. Don't know if it has been deleted, or I'm just going blind.
But in the meantime, writing & quotes seem about the most appropriate category to place something like this in.
With modern orbital imaging telescopes such as the Hubble (the Keplar platform in this particular case), more and more "planets" are being discovered to lie within the sweet spot in solar systems called the habitable zone. What this means to humanity is still in the beginning stages of research. Whether these planets are even relevant to humanity (as many of them are millions of years away at our current technological capabilities) remains to be seen.
I have issues with current methodologies as well. Some of the methods being used to find these planets are still open to doubt as to their viability. Methods such as ecliptic occultation (shadows of planets moving across the disk of the star) and gravitational perturbations (eg. anomalies in the rotation of the stars) are theoretically sound, but the extreme distances some of these observations are being made leave lots of room for error in data interpretation.
With such large numbers, even a small error can mean a lot; especially if you factor in that the universe, due to its expanding nature, is becoming more chaotic as a system the older it gets. As such, the larger the numbers become, the larger the errors in interpretation.
My question, or rather, my intent, is to open a dialogue on the possibility of humanity eventually reaching beyond Earth and grasping a toehold into the universe at large.
Do people think its something we'll ever get around to, or is it something just too big for us to surmount?
I will reveal my own feelings on this after I get feedback (if any) from the rest of the CS community.
Regards.
Actually you'll find it here!But in the meantime, writing & quotes seem about the most appropriate category to place something like this in.
With modern orbital imaging telescopes such as the Hubble (the Keplar platform in this particular case), more and more "planets" are being discovered to lie within the sweet spot in solar systems called the habitable zone. What this means to humanity is still in the beginning stages of research. Whether these planets are even relevant to humanity (as many of them are millions of years away at our current technological capabilities) remains to be seen.
I have issues with current methodologies as well. Some of the methods being used to find these planets are still open to doubt as to their viability. Methods such as ecliptic occultation (shadows of planets moving across the disk of the star) and gravitational perturbations (eg. anomalies in the rotation of the stars) are theoretically sound, but the extreme distances some of these observations are being made leave lots of room for error in data interpretation.
With such large numbers, even a small error can mean a lot; especially if you factor in that the universe, due to its expanding nature, is becoming more chaotic as a system the older it gets. As such, the larger the numbers become, the larger the errors in interpretation.
My question, or rather, my intent, is to open a dialogue on the possibility of humanity eventually reaching beyond Earth and grasping a toehold into the universe at large.
Do people think its something we'll ever get around to, or is it something just too big for us to surmount?
I will reveal my own feelings on this after I get feedback (if any) from the rest of the CS community.
Regards.
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Conrad73: Actually you'll find it here!
Yes, and great title you have on this thread(IMO) 
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Galactic_bodhi: It's interesting to note the concept of possibly using the Casimir effect in space to produce a region of quantum uncertainty large enough to produce a wormhole. While strictly theoretical at this point, as we expand out into our own solar system this might not be as far-fetched as people might think.
Food for thought anyway. Its' the incorrigible sci-fi writer in me that makes me think of things like this in hard-scientific ways. Sci-fi of today is often sci-fact of tomorrow.
Food for thought anyway. Its' the incorrigible sci-fi writer in me that makes me think of things like this in hard-scientific ways. Sci-fi of today is often sci-fact of tomorrow.
Science and creativity go hand in hand. I've often wondered if the sci-fi writer doesn't inspire the scientist, and the other way 'round - each challenging each other, at times egging each other on, perhaps.
A bit of an aside kinda quesrtion: Is it true, that according to the Theory of Everything, the universe could actually recreate itself - as if it were in the cellular structure to do.
About distances between galaxies - totally unfathomable. All very exciting though. I would love to turn on the news and hear that we have deciphered the coded messages scientists have picked up from far, far away...
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venere08: as if it were in the cellular structure to do so?
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But in the meantime, writing & quotes seem about the most appropriate category to place something like this in.
With modern orbital imaging telescopes such as the Hubble (the Keplar platform in this particular case), more and more "planets" are being discovered to lie within the sweet spot in solar systems called the habitable zone. What this means to humanity is still in the beginning stages of research. Whether these planets are even relevant to humanity (as many of them are millions of years away at our current technological capabilities) remains to be seen.
I have issues with current methodologies as well. Some of the methods being used to find these planets are still open to doubt as to their viability. Methods such as ecliptic occultation (shadows of planets moving across the disk of the star) and gravitational perturbations (eg. anomalies in the rotation of the stars) are theoretically sound, but the extreme distances some of these observations are being made leave lots of room for error in data interpretation.
With such large numbers, even a small error can mean a lot; especially if you factor in that the universe, due to its expanding nature, is becoming more chaotic as a system the older it gets. As such, the larger the numbers become, the larger the errors in interpretation.
My question, or rather, my intent, is to open a dialogue on the possibility of humanity eventually reaching beyond Earth and grasping a toehold into the universe at large.
Do people think its something we'll ever get around to, or is it something just too big for us to surmount?
I will reveal my own feelings on this after I get feedback (if any) from the rest of the CS community.
Regards.