uprising in syria (150)
America is not to blame for the Congress of Berlin in 1884, which divided up Africa without taking its inhabitants into account, or for the British partition of Pakistan and Afghanistan. But America - together with the other powers - can and must help today with solving the resultant problems. Nor only by drawing up new borders or in votes at the United Nations, but also by building infrastructures that will provide sound economic foundations to the new countries, and will free them from dependence on powerful neighbors like Turkey and Israel.
In the early 20th century, the Western powers controlled Asia and Africa and identified a wealth of assets in the Middle East. In 1916, Sir Mark Sykes and Francois Georges-Picot - a British official and a French diplomat, respectively - drew up an agreement on behalf of their governments describing a tentative division of the Ottoman Empire, which was fighting alongside Germany against the Allies. The document and map they came up with were theoretical and the chances they would be implemented seemed slight: The Turks were still far from defeat and the Western armies were bleeding along Europe's western front. In essence, Sykes' and Picot's governments coveted Syria and most of Palestine for France, and what was later to become Iraq for Britain.
In his fascinating book "A Peace to End All Peace" (1989 ), American historian David Fromkin describes how the great powers shaped the map of the Middle East in World War I and thereafter. According to Fromkin, the anti-Semitic view that the Jews had the ability to influence those powers and foment conspiracies underlay the diplomacy of the Western countries, which hoped to harness Jewish might on their behalf.
After reaching the agreement with Picot, Sykes was about to set out for Saint Petersburg, the capital of the czarist empire, to present the details to the Russians - who had always wanted to gain control of Istanbul and have access to the Mediterranean Sea. En route, Sykes met Capt. William Reginald Hall, head of Royal Naval Intelligence, in London and showed him his map. Hall told him Britain should send its forces to Palestine and only then would the Arabs switch to its side in the war. "Force is the best Arab propaganda" to use when dealing with the Arabs, the intelligence officer explained to the diplomat. (Or translated into our present-day Israeli lingo: "The only thing the Arabs understand is force." )
Sykes was convinced the agreement he had concocted with the French would satisfy Sharif Hussein of the Hejaz, the progenitor of the Hashemite dynasty, who sought independence for his people from the Ottoman Empire in exchange for support of the British. And then Hall surprised his British interlocutor by introducing a new factor into the power equation: The Jews, he said, had "a strong material, and a very strong political, interest in the future of the country." Sykes was dumbstruck. He had never heard of Zionism before then. He rushed to a meeting with the Jewish minister in the British war cabinet, Herbert Samuel, for an explanation.
This was the start of the process that would lead later to the Balfour Declaration, the conquest of Palestine, the establishment of the British Mandate, and the appointment of Samuel as its first high commissioner. At this point were sown the seeds of Arab anger at the Western powers, which had dismantled and then reassembled nations and states in the Middle East and promised Palestine to the Zionists.
The final borders in the Middle East were set by then-Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill at the Cairo Conference in 1922, which separated Transjordan from the boundaries of the Palestine Mandate. The Israeli right mourns that "tearing apart" to this very day.
continued...
In the early 20th century, the Western powers controlled Asia and Africa and identified a wealth of assets in the Middle East. In 1916, Sir Mark Sykes and Francois Georges-Picot - a British official and a French diplomat, respectively - drew up an agreement on behalf of their governments describing a tentative division of the Ottoman Empire, which was fighting alongside Germany against the Allies. The document and map they came up with were theoretical and the chances they would be implemented seemed slight: The Turks were still far from defeat and the Western armies were bleeding along Europe's western front. In essence, Sykes' and Picot's governments coveted Syria and most of Palestine for France, and what was later to become Iraq for Britain.
In his fascinating book "A Peace to End All Peace" (1989 ), American historian David Fromkin describes how the great powers shaped the map of the Middle East in World War I and thereafter. According to Fromkin, the anti-Semitic view that the Jews had the ability to influence those powers and foment conspiracies underlay the diplomacy of the Western countries, which hoped to harness Jewish might on their behalf.
After reaching the agreement with Picot, Sykes was about to set out for Saint Petersburg, the capital of the czarist empire, to present the details to the Russians - who had always wanted to gain control of Istanbul and have access to the Mediterranean Sea. En route, Sykes met Capt. William Reginald Hall, head of Royal Naval Intelligence, in London and showed him his map. Hall told him Britain should send its forces to Palestine and only then would the Arabs switch to its side in the war. "Force is the best Arab propaganda" to use when dealing with the Arabs, the intelligence officer explained to the diplomat. (Or translated into our present-day Israeli lingo: "The only thing the Arabs understand is force." )
Sykes was convinced the agreement he had concocted with the French would satisfy Sharif Hussein of the Hejaz, the progenitor of the Hashemite dynasty, who sought independence for his people from the Ottoman Empire in exchange for support of the British. And then Hall surprised his British interlocutor by introducing a new factor into the power equation: The Jews, he said, had "a strong material, and a very strong political, interest in the future of the country." Sykes was dumbstruck. He had never heard of Zionism before then. He rushed to a meeting with the Jewish minister in the British war cabinet, Herbert Samuel, for an explanation.
This was the start of the process that would lead later to the Balfour Declaration, the conquest of Palestine, the establishment of the British Mandate, and the appointment of Samuel as its first high commissioner. At this point were sown the seeds of Arab anger at the Western powers, which had dismantled and then reassembled nations and states in the Middle East and promised Palestine to the Zionists.
The final borders in the Middle East were set by then-Colonial Secretary Winston Churchill at the Cairo Conference in 1922, which separated Transjordan from the boundaries of the Palestine Mandate. The Israeli right mourns that "tearing apart" to this very day.
continued...
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With the end of colonialism, maintenance of those borders constituted the basis of political order in the region, even though it left many peoples unsatisfied - for example, the Kurds, who were split up among Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran. The reaction to colonialism was Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser's pan-Arabism, which reached its peak in the union of Syria and Egypt (the United Arab Republic ) at the end of the 1950s, though it did not last long. Now, nearly 100 years after the talks between Sykes and Picot, the United States' withdrawal from Iraq will afford the Kurds a chance for independence, despite Turkey's opposition. For their part, the Palestinians are working on international recognition for their country by this coming summer, despite Israel's objections.
Other "artificial states" like Libya, which was made up of three former Italian colonies, as well as Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Bahrain, Oman and Saudi Arabia, could all disintegrate. In all of them there is serious internal tension among tribes and groups or a minority government imposed on the majority. Yemen was divided in the past and could once again split into north and south. In Saudi Arabia, distances are vast. But how is it possible to partition Jordan, where the Bedouin and the Palestinians are mingled? The redrawing of borders is not a panacea.
Meanwhile, the war in Libya is splitting it de facto between Cyrenaica, the bastion of the rebels in the east, and Tripolitania, under Gadhafi's control. The Western powers' entry into the war on the side of the rebels shows they want to create a protectorate under their influence adjacent to the border with Egypt, which is at risk of becoming an Islamic republic hostile to the West. It is hard to find any other strategic rationale for the decision to become involved in Libya.
The battles between the British forces and Rommel's in World War II were fought exactly in those same places and had the same aim: protecting the eastern flank of Egypt and the Suez Canal. Rommel and Montgomery fought there well before oil was discovered in Libya.
The West, like Israel, prefers a fragmented and squabbling Middle East and is fighting on several fronts against pan-Arabism and pan-Islamism led by Osama bin Laden (and, in different ways, also by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan ). Therefore, it is possible to assess that the West will not try to thwart the process of fission in the countries of the region, but rather will contribute to it.
Israel is directly involved in the struggle over the establishment of an independent Palestine and the shaping of its borders, and would be significantly affected by the disintegration of its neighboring states, chiefly Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. A smart Israeli policy, which correctly identifies the opportunities inherent in the emergence of new states and knows how to take advantage of these opportunities, will be able to leverage the inevitable process to reinforce Israel's power and influence in the region.
Other "artificial states" like Libya, which was made up of three former Italian colonies, as well as Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Bahrain, Oman and Saudi Arabia, could all disintegrate. In all of them there is serious internal tension among tribes and groups or a minority government imposed on the majority. Yemen was divided in the past and could once again split into north and south. In Saudi Arabia, distances are vast. But how is it possible to partition Jordan, where the Bedouin and the Palestinians are mingled? The redrawing of borders is not a panacea.
Meanwhile, the war in Libya is splitting it de facto between Cyrenaica, the bastion of the rebels in the east, and Tripolitania, under Gadhafi's control. The Western powers' entry into the war on the side of the rebels shows they want to create a protectorate under their influence adjacent to the border with Egypt, which is at risk of becoming an Islamic republic hostile to the West. It is hard to find any other strategic rationale for the decision to become involved in Libya.
The battles between the British forces and Rommel's in World War II were fought exactly in those same places and had the same aim: protecting the eastern flank of Egypt and the Suez Canal. Rommel and Montgomery fought there well before oil was discovered in Libya.
The West, like Israel, prefers a fragmented and squabbling Middle East and is fighting on several fronts against pan-Arabism and pan-Islamism led by Osama bin Laden (and, in different ways, also by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan ). Therefore, it is possible to assess that the West will not try to thwart the process of fission in the countries of the region, but rather will contribute to it.
Israel is directly involved in the struggle over the establishment of an independent Palestine and the shaping of its borders, and would be significantly affected by the disintegration of its neighboring states, chiefly Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia. A smart Israeli policy, which correctly identifies the opportunities inherent in the emergence of new states and knows how to take advantage of these opportunities, will be able to leverage the inevitable process to reinforce Israel's power and influence in the region.
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patmac: So that is why they are celebrating the anniversary of kicking them out in 2005....
Personally, I think countries should be merging, not fragmenting into 100 more states. 200 is more than enough by two.
Iraq needs to split Sunni, Kurds and Shia but those parts should merge with their corresponding parts in Syria, Iran and Turkey to form three new states, one for each group. Israel needs to do the one state with Palestine and be a secular free state... or give up all it's Arabic lands (East Jerusalem, the Triangle and West Bank) to Jordan. Korea needs to reunify and most of Central and South America needs work too alsong the lines of a federation like the EU. Then there's Afroca!
If I were chief cartologist for a day I'd redraw a lot of maps! What we have sucks.
Don't want to go off topic though.
I'm off for a drink. Don't stay up too late now...
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The above cut n paste article was brought to you by Haaretz...
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Paldi5: Personally, I think countries should be merging, not fragmenting into 100 more states. 200 is more than enough by two.
Iraq needs to split Sunni, Kurds and Shia but those parts should merge with their corresponding parts in Syria, Iran and Turkey to form three new states, one for each group. Israel needs to do the one state with Palestine and be a secular free state... or give up all it's Arabic lands (East Jerusalem, the Triangle and West Bank) to Jordan. Korea needs to reunify and most of Central and South America needs work too alsong the lines of a federation like the EU. Then there's Afroca!
If I were chief cartologist for a day I'd redraw a lot of maps! What we have sucks.
Don't want to go off topic though.
I'm off for a drink. Don't stay up too late now...
Iraq needs to split Sunni, Kurds and Shia but those parts should merge with their corresponding parts in Syria, Iran and Turkey to form three new states, one for each group. Israel needs to do the one state with Palestine and be a secular free state... or give up all it's Arabic lands (East Jerusalem, the Triangle and West Bank) to Jordan. Korea needs to reunify and most of Central and South America needs work too alsong the lines of a federation like the EU. Then there's Afroca!
If I were chief cartologist for a day I'd redraw a lot of maps! What we have sucks.
Don't want to go off topic though.
I'm off for a drink. Don't stay up too late now...
I'd stay up late if I had something sensible to read, even more so if it was on Topic.
The whole middle east is looking for freedom and you are trying to cause mayhem with your "plan"...
Israel and the Palestinians in one state
You spent how long trying to plan this.....Keep trying your solutions give me and no doubt a load of others a good LAUGH !!!! Night Fred thanks for the laugh and the wee look at how you mind works....Sorry, it doesn't .
A secular free state full of Jews and Muslims
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patmac: I'd stay up late if I had something sensible to read, even more so if it was on Topic.
The whole middle east is looking for freedom and you are trying to cause mayhem with your "plan"...
Israel and the Palestinians in one state You spent how long trying to plan this.....Keep trying your solutions give me and no doubt a load of others a good LAUGH !!!!
Night Fred thanks for the laugh and the wee look at how you mind works....Sorry, it doesn't .
A secular free state full of Jews and Muslims
The whole middle east is looking for freedom and you are trying to cause mayhem with your "plan"...
Israel and the Palestinians in one state You spent how long trying to plan this.....Keep trying your solutions give me and no doubt a load of others a good LAUGH !!!!
Night Fred thanks for the laugh and the wee look at how you mind works....
A secular free state full of Jews and Muslims
Yes Pat - a secular free state of Jews and Muslims is Israel today, it's mandated in the constitution and when things are quiet actually coexists despite discrimination by some parts of society.
Pat you can laugh all you wanr but a lot of people feel like I do. Multiculturalism and democracy and even, dare I say affirmative action work(d) fine in America. There is going to be no other choice. Two states is dead and ethnic cleansing isn't an option.
A binational Israel-Palestine could start new chapter in human history. In addition, Iran or any other bad actor in the region might not feel compelled to bomb Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, etc., if those were centers of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious civilization. It's in your interest (assuming you are Jewish) and in the best interest of America too.
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Six years ago: The Olga Document
Prof. Anat Biletzki, Andre Draznin, Haim Hanegbi, Yehudith Harel, Michel (Micado) Warschawski, Oren Medicks
The following document was written in a series of meetings in Givat Olga, and titled after the location, The Olga Document.
For Truth and Reconciliation, For Equality and Partnership
The State of Israel was supposed to grant security to Jews; it has created a death-trap whose inhabitants live in constant danger, the likes of which is not experienced by any other Jewish community;
The State of Israel was supposed to tear down the walls of the ghetto; it is now constructing the biggest ghetto in the entire history of the Jews;
The State of Israel was supposed to be a democracy; it has set up a colonial structure, combining unmistakable elements of apartheid with the arbitrariness of brutal military occupation.
Israel, 2004, is a state on the road to nowhere.
Fifty-six years after its establishment—notwithstanding its many achievements in agriculture, science and technology, and albeit a great regional military power, armed with doomsday weapons—many of its citizens are heartsick with existential worry and fear for their future.
Since its foundation Israel has lived by its sword. An incessant succession of "retaliations", military operations and wars has become the life-support drug of Israel's Jews.
And now, almost four years after the beginning of the second Palestinian Intifada, Israel is up to its neck in the mire of occupation and oppression, while it goes on extending the settlements and multiplying the outposts, repeating to itself ad nauseam that "we have no partner for peace."
Ten years after the Oslo Accords, we are living in a benighted colonial reality—in the heart of darkness. Thirty-seven years after Israel conquered the last of the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, over three and a half million Palestinians under its rule are penned up in their towns and villages.
The term "Palestinian State"—which for years embodied the peace option—is being used by many Israeli politicians as a mirage phrase, a spin on the reality of occupation: "In the future," they whisper with a knowing wink, "the Palestinian entity in the Territories may be called a 'state'."
And meanwhile Israel is amplifying the devastation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as if determined to pulverize the Palestinian people to dust.
In the face of the large Israeli camp of supporters of the separation walls—those, both right and left, who are terrified by the demons of demography, constantly counting the populace to find out how many Jews and Arabs are born and die every week, how many Jews and Arabs live in the entire country and in each of its districts every month—it is vital to pose an alternative outlook, based on the following principles:
Coexistence of the peoples of this country, based on mutual recognition, equal partnership and implementation of historical justice.
continued...
Prof. Anat Biletzki, Andre Draznin, Haim Hanegbi, Yehudith Harel, Michel (Micado) Warschawski, Oren Medicks
The following document was written in a series of meetings in Givat Olga, and titled after the location, The Olga Document.
For Truth and Reconciliation, For Equality and Partnership
The State of Israel was supposed to grant security to Jews; it has created a death-trap whose inhabitants live in constant danger, the likes of which is not experienced by any other Jewish community;
The State of Israel was supposed to tear down the walls of the ghetto; it is now constructing the biggest ghetto in the entire history of the Jews;
The State of Israel was supposed to be a democracy; it has set up a colonial structure, combining unmistakable elements of apartheid with the arbitrariness of brutal military occupation.
Israel, 2004, is a state on the road to nowhere.
Fifty-six years after its establishment—notwithstanding its many achievements in agriculture, science and technology, and albeit a great regional military power, armed with doomsday weapons—many of its citizens are heartsick with existential worry and fear for their future.
Since its foundation Israel has lived by its sword. An incessant succession of "retaliations", military operations and wars has become the life-support drug of Israel's Jews.
And now, almost four years after the beginning of the second Palestinian Intifada, Israel is up to its neck in the mire of occupation and oppression, while it goes on extending the settlements and multiplying the outposts, repeating to itself ad nauseam that "we have no partner for peace."
Ten years after the Oslo Accords, we are living in a benighted colonial reality—in the heart of darkness. Thirty-seven years after Israel conquered the last of the Palestinian territories in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, over three and a half million Palestinians under its rule are penned up in their towns and villages.
The term "Palestinian State"—which for years embodied the peace option—is being used by many Israeli politicians as a mirage phrase, a spin on the reality of occupation: "In the future," they whisper with a knowing wink, "the Palestinian entity in the Territories may be called a 'state'."
And meanwhile Israel is amplifying the devastation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as if determined to pulverize the Palestinian people to dust.
In the face of the large Israeli camp of supporters of the separation walls—those, both right and left, who are terrified by the demons of demography, constantly counting the populace to find out how many Jews and Arabs are born and die every week, how many Jews and Arabs live in the entire country and in each of its districts every month—it is vital to pose an alternative outlook, based on the following principles:
Coexistence of the peoples of this country, based on mutual recognition, equal partnership and implementation of historical justice.
continued...
------ This thread is Archived ------
We are talking of a road that has not been tried hitherto: being honest with ourselves, with our neighbours and particularly with the Palestinian people—our enemies who are our brothers and sisters. If we muster within ourselves the appropriate honesty and requisite courage, we will be able to take the first step in the long journey that can extricate us from the tangle of denial, repression, distortion of reality, loss of direction and forsaking of conscience, in which the people of Israel have been trapped for generations.
Whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear knows that the choice is between another “hundred years of conflict” ending in annihilation, and a partnership among all the inhabitants of this land. Only such a partnership is capable of turning us, the Jews of Israel, from foreigners in their country to its real inhabitants.
We do not intend to start another movement against the occupation, or another party (platform, institutions, leaders). We seek to start off a genuine public discussion about the Israeli blind alley in which we live and the profound changes needed in order to break out of it. Every Israeli knows that this is not a matter of political trifles, but concerns the fate of the peoples of this country.
Giv`at Olga, June 2004
Ra'anan Alexandrowicz Prof. Zalman Amit
Dr. Yossi Amitay Boaz Arad
Adi Arbel Nirit Ben Ari
Nili Aslan Michal Aviad
Dr. Ariella Azulay Avi Gibson Bar-El
Osnat Bar-Or Dr. Shiko Behar
Prof. Joel Beinin Miryam Beinin
Prof. Zvi Bentwich Meron Benvenisti
Dr. Shimshon Bichler Prof. Anat Biletzki
Prof. Daniel Boyarin Prof. Victoria Buch
Michal Chacham Ronit Chacham
Lin Chalozin-Dovrat Dr. Sami Shalom Chetrit
Dr. Raya Cohen Elias Davidsson
Talma Bar Din Dr. Diana Dolev
Sharon Dolev Andre Draznin
Dr. Avishai Ehrlich Dr. Nurit Peled Elhanan
Boas Evron Pnina Feiler
Pnina Firestone Prof. Ariella Friedmann
Racheli Gai Tamar Getter
Dr. Daphna Golan Dr. Neve Gordon
Mirjam Hadar Prof. Uri Hadar
Haim Hanegbi Yehudith Harel
Dr. Talma Hendler Prof. Hannan Hever
Amos Israel-Vleeschhouwer Rachel Leah Jones
Roni Kalev Dr. Orit Kamir
Einav Katan Dr. Katlin Katz
Gal Keinan Prof. Baruch Kimmerling
Elinor Kowarski Noa Kram
Orna Lavi Hava Lermann
Dr. Daphna Levit Aim Deuelle Luski
Prof. Bezalel Manekin Dr. Abraham Mansbach
Ronit Marian-Kadishay Dr. Ruchama Marton
Dr. Nina Mayorek Rela Mazali
Oren Medicks Gil Medovoy
Racheli Merhav Tsachi Mitsenmacher
Avi Mograbi Smadar Ben Natan
Prof. Judd Ne'eman Prof. Adi Ophir
Amir Orian Prof. Avraham Oz
Dr. Dan Rabinowitz Dr. Nitzan Rabinowitz
Dr. Uri Ram Dr. Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin
Roee Rosen Yael Roth-Barkai
Catherine Rottenberg Sergeiy Sandler
Herzel Schubert Tali Shemesh
Prof. Yehouda Shenhav Oded Shimshon
Prof. Nomi Shir Diana Shoef
Dr. Tali Siloni Ora Slunim
Kobi Snitz David Tartakover
Amos Tidhar Tova Tidhar
Osnat Trabelsi Dr. Allon Uhlmann
Michel (Mikado) Warschawski Dr. Haim Yacobi
Sergio Yahni Prof. Oren Yiftachel
Prof. Moshe Zuckermann
[July 12, 2004
Whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear knows that the choice is between another “hundred years of conflict” ending in annihilation, and a partnership among all the inhabitants of this land. Only such a partnership is capable of turning us, the Jews of Israel, from foreigners in their country to its real inhabitants.
We do not intend to start another movement against the occupation, or another party (platform, institutions, leaders). We seek to start off a genuine public discussion about the Israeli blind alley in which we live and the profound changes needed in order to break out of it. Every Israeli knows that this is not a matter of political trifles, but concerns the fate of the peoples of this country.
Giv`at Olga, June 2004
Ra'anan Alexandrowicz Prof. Zalman Amit
Dr. Yossi Amitay Boaz Arad
Adi Arbel Nirit Ben Ari
Nili Aslan Michal Aviad
Dr. Ariella Azulay Avi Gibson Bar-El
Osnat Bar-Or Dr. Shiko Behar
Prof. Joel Beinin Miryam Beinin
Prof. Zvi Bentwich Meron Benvenisti
Dr. Shimshon Bichler Prof. Anat Biletzki
Prof. Daniel Boyarin Prof. Victoria Buch
Michal Chacham Ronit Chacham
Lin Chalozin-Dovrat Dr. Sami Shalom Chetrit
Dr. Raya Cohen Elias Davidsson
Talma Bar Din Dr. Diana Dolev
Sharon Dolev Andre Draznin
Dr. Avishai Ehrlich Dr. Nurit Peled Elhanan
Boas Evron Pnina Feiler
Pnina Firestone Prof. Ariella Friedmann
Racheli Gai Tamar Getter
Dr. Daphna Golan Dr. Neve Gordon
Mirjam Hadar Prof. Uri Hadar
Haim Hanegbi Yehudith Harel
Dr. Talma Hendler Prof. Hannan Hever
Amos Israel-Vleeschhouwer Rachel Leah Jones
Roni Kalev Dr. Orit Kamir
Einav Katan Dr. Katlin Katz
Gal Keinan Prof. Baruch Kimmerling
Elinor Kowarski Noa Kram
Orna Lavi Hava Lermann
Dr. Daphna Levit Aim Deuelle Luski
Prof. Bezalel Manekin Dr. Abraham Mansbach
Ronit Marian-Kadishay Dr. Ruchama Marton
Dr. Nina Mayorek Rela Mazali
Oren Medicks Gil Medovoy
Racheli Merhav Tsachi Mitsenmacher
Avi Mograbi Smadar Ben Natan
Prof. Judd Ne'eman Prof. Adi Ophir
Amir Orian Prof. Avraham Oz
Dr. Dan Rabinowitz Dr. Nitzan Rabinowitz
Dr. Uri Ram Dr. Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin
Roee Rosen Yael Roth-Barkai
Catherine Rottenberg Sergeiy Sandler
Herzel Schubert Tali Shemesh
Prof. Yehouda Shenhav Oded Shimshon
Prof. Nomi Shir Diana Shoef
Dr. Tali Siloni Ora Slunim
Kobi Snitz David Tartakover
Amos Tidhar Tova Tidhar
Osnat Trabelsi Dr. Allon Uhlmann
Michel (Mikado) Warschawski Dr. Haim Yacobi
Sergio Yahni Prof. Oren Yiftachel
Prof. Moshe Zuckermann
[July 12, 2004
------ This thread is Archived ------
We are talking of a road that has not been tried hitherto: being honest with ourselves, with our neighbours and particularly with the Palestinian people—our enemies who are our brothers and sisters. If we muster within ourselves the appropriate honesty and requisite courage, we will be able to take the first step in the long journey that can extricate us from the tangle of denial, repression, distortion of reality, loss of direction and forsaking of conscience, in which the people of Israel have been trapped for generations.
Whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear knows that the choice is between another “hundred years of conflict” ending in annihilation, and a partnership among all the inhabitants of this land. Only such a partnership is capable of turning us, the Jews of Israel, from foreigners in their country to its real inhabitants.
We do not intend to start another movement against the occupation, or another party (platform, institutions, leaders). We seek to start off a genuine public discussion about the Israeli blind alley in which we live and the profound changes needed in order to break out of it. Every Israeli knows that this is not a matter of political trifles, but concerns the fate of the peoples of this country.
Giv`at Olga, June 2004
Ra'anan Alexandrowicz Prof. Zalman Amit
Dr. Yossi Amitay Boaz Arad
Adi Arbel Nirit Ben Ari
Nili Aslan Michal Aviad
Dr. Ariella Azulay Avi Gibson Bar-El
Osnat Bar-Or Dr. Shiko Behar
Prof. Joel Beinin Miryam Beinin
Prof. Zvi Bentwich Meron Benvenisti
Dr. Shimshon Bichler Prof. Anat Biletzki
Prof. Daniel Boyarin Prof. Victoria Buch
Michal Chacham Ronit Chacham
Lin Chalozin-Dovrat Dr. Sami Shalom Chetrit
Dr. Raya Cohen Elias Davidsson
Talma Bar Din Dr. Diana Dolev
Sharon Dolev Andre Draznin
Dr. Avishai Ehrlich Dr. Nurit Peled Elhanan
Boas Evron Pnina Feiler
Pnina Firestone Prof. Ariella Friedmann
Racheli Gai Tamar Getter
Dr. Daphna Golan Dr. Neve Gordon
Mirjam Hadar Prof. Uri Hadar
Haim Hanegbi Yehudith Harel
Dr. Talma Hendler Prof. Hannan Hever
Amos Israel-Vleeschhouwer Rachel Leah Jones
Roni Kalev Dr. Orit Kamir
Einav Katan Dr. Katlin Katz
Gal Keinan Prof. Baruch Kimmerling
Elinor Kowarski Noa Kram
Orna Lavi Hava Lermann
Dr. Daphna Levit Aim Deuelle Luski
Prof. Bezalel Manekin Dr. Abraham Mansbach
Ronit Marian-Kadishay Dr. Ruchama Marton
Dr. Nina Mayorek Rela Mazali
Oren Medicks Gil Medovoy
Racheli Merhav Tsachi Mitsenmacher
Avi Mograbi Smadar Ben Natan
Prof. Judd Ne'eman Prof. Adi Ophir
Amir Orian Prof. Avraham Oz
Dr. Dan Rabinowitz Dr. Nitzan Rabinowitz
Dr. Uri Ram Dr. Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin
Roee Rosen Yael Roth-Barkai
Catherine Rottenberg Sergeiy Sandler
Herzel Schubert Tali Shemesh
Prof. Yehouda Shenhav Oded Shimshon
Prof. Nomi Shir Diana Shoef
Dr. Tali Siloni Ora Slunim
Kobi Snitz David Tartakover
Amos Tidhar Tova Tidhar
Osnat Trabelsi Dr. Allon Uhlmann
Michel (Mikado) Warschawski Dr. Haim Yacobi
Sergio Yahni Prof. Oren Yiftachel
Prof. Moshe Zuckermann
[July 12, 2004
Whoever has eyes to see and ears to hear knows that the choice is between another “hundred years of conflict” ending in annihilation, and a partnership among all the inhabitants of this land. Only such a partnership is capable of turning us, the Jews of Israel, from foreigners in their country to its real inhabitants.
We do not intend to start another movement against the occupation, or another party (platform, institutions, leaders). We seek to start off a genuine public discussion about the Israeli blind alley in which we live and the profound changes needed in order to break out of it. Every Israeli knows that this is not a matter of political trifles, but concerns the fate of the peoples of this country.
Giv`at Olga, June 2004
Ra'anan Alexandrowicz Prof. Zalman Amit
Dr. Yossi Amitay Boaz Arad
Adi Arbel Nirit Ben Ari
Nili Aslan Michal Aviad
Dr. Ariella Azulay Avi Gibson Bar-El
Osnat Bar-Or Dr. Shiko Behar
Prof. Joel Beinin Miryam Beinin
Prof. Zvi Bentwich Meron Benvenisti
Dr. Shimshon Bichler Prof. Anat Biletzki
Prof. Daniel Boyarin Prof. Victoria Buch
Michal Chacham Ronit Chacham
Lin Chalozin-Dovrat Dr. Sami Shalom Chetrit
Dr. Raya Cohen Elias Davidsson
Talma Bar Din Dr. Diana Dolev
Sharon Dolev Andre Draznin
Dr. Avishai Ehrlich Dr. Nurit Peled Elhanan
Boas Evron Pnina Feiler
Pnina Firestone Prof. Ariella Friedmann
Racheli Gai Tamar Getter
Dr. Daphna Golan Dr. Neve Gordon
Mirjam Hadar Prof. Uri Hadar
Haim Hanegbi Yehudith Harel
Dr. Talma Hendler Prof. Hannan Hever
Amos Israel-Vleeschhouwer Rachel Leah Jones
Roni Kalev Dr. Orit Kamir
Einav Katan Dr. Katlin Katz
Gal Keinan Prof. Baruch Kimmerling
Elinor Kowarski Noa Kram
Orna Lavi Hava Lermann
Dr. Daphna Levit Aim Deuelle Luski
Prof. Bezalel Manekin Dr. Abraham Mansbach
Ronit Marian-Kadishay Dr. Ruchama Marton
Dr. Nina Mayorek Rela Mazali
Oren Medicks Gil Medovoy
Racheli Merhav Tsachi Mitsenmacher
Avi Mograbi Smadar Ben Natan
Prof. Judd Ne'eman Prof. Adi Ophir
Amir Orian Prof. Avraham Oz
Dr. Dan Rabinowitz Dr. Nitzan Rabinowitz
Dr. Uri Ram Dr. Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin
Roee Rosen Yael Roth-Barkai
Catherine Rottenberg Sergeiy Sandler
Herzel Schubert Tali Shemesh
Prof. Yehouda Shenhav Oded Shimshon
Prof. Nomi Shir Diana Shoef
Dr. Tali Siloni Ora Slunim
Kobi Snitz David Tartakover
Amos Tidhar Tova Tidhar
Osnat Trabelsi Dr. Allon Uhlmann
Michel (Mikado) Warschawski Dr. Haim Yacobi
Sergio Yahni Prof. Oren Yiftachel
Prof. Moshe Zuckermann
[July 12, 2004
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Well, that was interesting. The link for patac. (Sorry to be off topic.)
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matchbox: many dead in the city of darah as protesters clash with security forces, this is another brutal regime very similar to that of libya, democracy = zero, human rights = zero, other political parties = zero, brought to power by nobody but his father , this govenment is on the edge of collapsing, but before people will pay a very high price unfortunately there will be lots of killings in this country too
Hey ! I have an idea ..........
Why not have the good old USA send some war ships there and start another no-fly zone and do some cruise missile practice
What the hell at this point .........
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Conrad73: Be some Bar Mitzvah!
i better not go there....
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Looking at the thread posts ...My GOD some people like to post volumes - when a few well thought out one liners could get the point across.............
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Paldi5: Pat you really need to keep up. Don't you understand things are changing? (I figured this out befor the following story came to my attention. Unlike you, I understand the winds of change.
Hate to do this but am dying to know so will ask a question of you Paldi. After all, you "understand the winds of change."
So, your article says "Now it is apparent that maps drawn in the coming years will show new or renewed independent states such as South Sudan; Kurdistan; Palestine; maybe also Cyrenaica in eastern Libya; the Western Sahara, which will no longer be in Moroccan hands; reconstructed Southern Yemen; and Gulf states that will separate from the United Arab Emirates."
Why is it "apparent" when the only independence on the table - which is South Sudan and, which has yet to occur, and, other than the ongoing Israeli Palestinian peace process, is not even being tabled as a possible?
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Paldi5: Pat you really need to keep up. Don't you understand things are changing? (I figured this out befor the following story came to my attention. Unlike you, I understand the winds of change.
Hate to do this but am dying to know so will ask a question of you Paldi. After all, you "understand the winds of change."
So, your article says "Now it is apparent that maps drawn in the coming years will show new or renewed independent states such as South Sudan; Kurdistan; Palestine; maybe also Cyrenaica in eastern Libya; the Western Sahara, which will no longer be in Moroccan hands; reconstructed Southern Yemen; and Gulf states that will separate from the United Arab Emirates."
Why is it "apparent" when the only independence on the table - which is South Sudan and, which has yet to occur, and, other than the ongoing Israeli Palestinian peace process, none are not even being tabled as a possible?
** Edited final sentence for clarity
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Paldi - why do you and your 'friends' post articles from pre-2005. It is a whole different ball-game post-2005 because of the Gaza disengagement that brought about the situation it was not meant to bring about. Please post current links as anything to do with Israel pre-August 2005 is not relevant.
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Wow_Factor: Paldi - why do you and your 'friends' post articles from pre-2005. It is a whole different ball-game post-2005 because of the Gaza disengagement that brought about the situation it was not meant to bring about. Please post current links as anything to do with Israel pre-August 2005 is not relevant.
Well,he's just shown what he's made of!Wants to throw two People into one State,two people that have difficulty living alongside each other
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Paldi5: Yes Pat - a secular free state of Jews and Muslims is Israel today, it's mandated in the constitution and when things are quiet actually coexists despite discrimination by some parts of society.
Pat you can laugh all you wanr but a lot of people feel like I do. Multiculturalism and democracy and even, dare I say affirmative action work(d) fine in America. There is going to be no other choice. Two states is dead and ethnic cleansing isn't an option.
A binational Israel-Palestine could start new chapter in human history. In addition, Iran or any other bad actor in the region might not feel compelled to bomb Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, etc., if those were centers of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious civilization. It's in your interest (assuming you are Jewish) and in the best interest of America too.
¨Fred,you really done it now!!!!!!!!!Pat you can laugh all you wanr but a lot of people feel like I do. Multiculturalism and democracy and even, dare I say affirmative action work(d) fine in America. There is going to be no other choice. Two states is dead and ethnic cleansing isn't an option.
A binational Israel-Palestine could start new chapter in human history. In addition, Iran or any other bad actor in the region might not feel compelled to bomb Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, etc., if those were centers of a multi-ethnic and multi-religious civilization. It's in your interest (assuming you are Jewish) and in the best interest of America too.
Multiculty is Dead,Fred!
Just hasn't been buried yet,thus the stink!
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Conrad73: ¨Fred,you really done it now!!!!!!!!!
Multiculty is Dead,Fred!
Just hasn't been buried yet,thus the stink!
Multiculty is Dead,Fred!
Just hasn't been buried yet,thus the stink!
The Palestinians are not the point Fred The thread is urising in Syria. You have done your utmost to HIGHJACK this thread.
Why I wonder.
Possibly the fact the Ara world is in meltdown at the moment and the folk are kicking out all the dictators and asking for democracy a thing few Arabs have ever known.
You post Links from 2005 to support your causes. That Fred was the year the lebanese kicked the Syrians out. And you want Syria to asorb Lebanon.
A single state for Israel and Palestine
Now in 48 the palestinians chose not to have that and have fought for their own land since. Now the have Gazza and on their own and they still launch rockets Daily and Bomb Israeli folk as often as they can with Sicide Bombers, planted Bombs...And you want to put them in the same state with no Border controls and checkpoints.
Get real Fred the Jews would have to fight and they would and Mayhem would ensue.
Now the point of the thread your are trying to highjack is UPRISING IN SYRIA.
Now overnight there has been more violence in Syria comments on that please Fred and the fact the Arab world is reaching for FREEDOM might be more appropriate rather than the crap you are posting stay on the point of the thread.
Can't see you need to highjack Fred unless you are trying to involve Israel again and the have as you know nothing to do with the violence in SYRIA....
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Published 08:18 25.03.11 Latest update 08:18 25.03.11
Caution: Middle East under construction
Popular uprisings and internecine hostilities will lead to the redrawing of regional maps, which will be a far cry from those underlying the 1916 Sykes-Picot agreement and other accords
By Aluf Benn
The struggles for survival of Libyan Col. Muammar Gadhafi, Syrian President Bashar Assad and their counterparts elsewhere herald the last days of the Sykes-Picot agreement from World War I, which in effect divided the region of the Middle East into separate states. Now it is apparent that maps drawn in the coming years will show new or renewed independent states such as South Sudan; Kurdistan; Palestine; maybe also Cyrenaica in eastern Libya; the Western Sahara, which will no longer be in Moroccan hands; reconstructed Southern Yemen; and Gulf states that will separate from the United Arab Emirates. It's even possible that there will be a split in Saudi Arabia between "the state of the holy sites" in the Hejaz and the petroleum powers in the east, and of Syria into Sunni, Alaouite and Druze states. The basis for these divisions will be implementation of the principle of self-definition of nations and tribes, which until now unwillingly and without any alternative have been wrapped up together in the same national package with their foes.
The foreign policy of Israel, even before statehood, has always been built upon the rivalries of Arab and Muslim neighbors. Furthermore, pan-Arab and pan-Islamic unity has relied to a great extent on hostility toward Israel, which for its part has preferred the separatism and nationalism of its neighbors. The more states there are in the region in the future, the easier it will be for Israel to maneuver among them.
The borders in the Middle East were determined between 1916 and 1922 in negotiations involving the European powers, conducted in majestic palaces by officials wearing suits and ties. Those borders are being redrawn in the 21st century by force, by wars and by popular uprisings. This began with America's invasion of Iraq eight years ago, which crushed the central regime and created de facto ethnic enclaves. It continued with the Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip, which led to the establishment of a de facto state controlled by Hamas, and later with the referendum on the partitioning of Sudan at the end of a long and cruel internecine war there. The process has been accelerated with the recent revolutions in the Arab countries, which are still in their early stages and have already led to a war in Libya.
In his new book "How to Run the World" (Random House ), which was published just before the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt, Parag Khanna, a researcher at the New America Foundation, predicts a world comprising 300 independent, sovereign nations in the next few decades, as compared to about 200 today. At the basis of this fission is what Khanna has called "post-colonial entropy": Many states have developed from former colonies, he observes, and since their independence have "experienced unmanageable population growth, predatory and corrupt dictatorship, crumbling infrastructure and institutions, and ethnic or sectarian polarization." Exactly the same reasons can be used to explain the current vicissitudes in the Arab countries.
In many cases, writes Khanna, current borders are the cause of internal strife - for example, in failed states like Yemen, Pakistan and the Democratic Republic of Congo. In his view, the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq are not "America's wars," but rather "unexploded ordinance left over from old European wars, with their fuses lit on slow release."
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