SO HELP ME GOD (in court) (29)
montecito: I have been watching the Conrad Murray trial. He is the doctor who allegedly administered a lethal does of Propofol (Diprivan) to Michael Jackson which caused his death.
The Clerk of the Court is required to administer legal jargon, otherwise known as the Oath, to each witness before testimony can proceed: “Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God”.
When a witness says “yes” to the Oath, does it mean they would be worried about punishment from a higher power if they lie? Are they afraid to lie because they have now sworn to God to tell the truth? In the event of perjury, would God be the only one who could save them?
What about the witness who doesn’t believe in God and yet says “yes”. Is that person thinking…..I don’t believe in God so it doesn’t matter if I tell the truth.
If you say “yes” to the Oath, is it a request for divine guidance to help you tell the truth. Is the oath taker being made to understand that he or she is entering into a covenant that will incur the wrath of God if broken such as "may God smite me if I break this oath."
What about the person who doesn’t believe in God and yet takes the Oath?
Is that person governed by the Rules of Court or by a testament to “God”?
The Clerk of the Court is required to administer legal jargon, otherwise known as the Oath, to each witness before testimony can proceed: “Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God”.
When a witness says “yes” to the Oath, does it mean they would be worried about punishment from a higher power if they lie? Are they afraid to lie because they have now sworn to God to tell the truth? In the event of perjury, would God be the only one who could save them?
What about the witness who doesn’t believe in God and yet says “yes”. Is that person thinking…..I don’t believe in God so it doesn’t matter if I tell the truth.
If you say “yes” to the Oath, is it a request for divine guidance to help you tell the truth. Is the oath taker being made to understand that he or she is entering into a covenant that will incur the wrath of God if broken such as "may God smite me if I break this oath."
What about the person who doesn’t believe in God and yet takes the Oath?
Is that person governed by the Rules of Court or by a testament to “God”?
This can actually cause a lot of trouble in multcultural societies. The role of the Prince of Wales in the UK also included the title, 'Defender of the Faith,' the faith being according to the Anglican Church which is headed by the monarch. I remember there was talk of chnging it to 'Defender of Faith' to encompass everybody's beliefs.....but would that account for people with no belief?
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montecito: I have been watching the Conrad Murray trial. He is the doctor who allegedly administered a lethal does of Propofol (Diprivan) to Michael Jackson which caused his death.
The Clerk of the Court is required to administer legal jargon, otherwise known as the Oath, to each witness before testimony can proceed: “Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God”.
When a witness says “yes” to the Oath, does it mean they would be worried about punishment from a higher power if they lie? Are they afraid to lie because they have now sworn to God to tell the truth? In the event of perjury, would God be the only one who could save them?
What about the witness who doesn’t believe in God and yet says “yes”. Is that person thinking…..I don’t believe in God so it doesn’t matter if I tell the truth.
If you say “yes” to the Oath, is it a request for divine guidance to help you tell the truth. Is the oath taker being made to understand that he or she is entering into a covenant that will incur the wrath of God if broken such as "may God smite me if I break this oath."
What about the person who doesn’t believe in God and yet takes the Oath?
Is that person governed by the Rules of Court or by a testament to “God”?
The Clerk of the Court is required to administer legal jargon, otherwise known as the Oath, to each witness before testimony can proceed: “Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God”.
When a witness says “yes” to the Oath, does it mean they would be worried about punishment from a higher power if they lie? Are they afraid to lie because they have now sworn to God to tell the truth? In the event of perjury, would God be the only one who could save them?
What about the witness who doesn’t believe in God and yet says “yes”. Is that person thinking…..I don’t believe in God so it doesn’t matter if I tell the truth.
If you say “yes” to the Oath, is it a request for divine guidance to help you tell the truth. Is the oath taker being made to understand that he or she is entering into a covenant that will incur the wrath of God if broken such as "may God smite me if I break this oath."
What about the person who doesn’t believe in God and yet takes the Oath?
Is that person governed by the Rules of Court or by a testament to “God”?
Well, we've taken the word "God" out of everything else, why not the courtroom..
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leigh2154: Well, we've taken the word "God" out of everything else, why not the courtroom..
I'm not asking about taking "God" out of the courtroom.
I'm asking, if a person takes the Oath but doesn't believe in God, and is then found to have lied, does that person have any defense if they are charged with perjury. Can they say ...... I don't believe in God so it doesn't matter that I lied.
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Godsgift: This can actually cause a lot of trouble in multcultural societies. The role of the Prince of Wales in the UK also included the title, 'Defender of the Faith,' the faith being according to the Anglican Church which is headed by the monarch. I remember there was talk of chnging it to 'Defender of Faith' to encompass everybody's beliefs.....but would that account for people with no belief?
That would encompass all faiths, even those whose faith is not to believe in any diety.
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montecito: I'm not asking about taking "God" out of the courtroom.
I'm asking, if a person takes the Oath but doesn't believe in God, and is then found to have lied, does that person have any defense if they are charged with perjury. Can they say ...... I don't believe in God so it doesn't matter that I lied.
I'm asking, if a person takes the Oath but doesn't believe in God, and is then found to have lied, does that person have any defense if they are charged with perjury. Can they say ...... I don't believe in God so it doesn't matter that I lied.
Yes....If they do not believe in the oath as stated and take it anyway, they are guilty of a lie of omission.....on top of lying under oath...best just to tell the truth...
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leigh2154: Yes....If they do not believe in the oath as stated and take it anyway, they are guilty of a lie of omission.....on top of lying under oath...best just to tell the truth...
Let me restate this, I made a mistake....A person who lies under oath, if caught, has NO recourse....if they take the oath even though they do not believe in God, that is a lie of omission and in combination with the lie told while under oath....
BEST TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.....
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leigh2154: Let me restate this, I made a mistake....A person who lies under oath, if caught, has NO recourse....if they take the oath even though they do not believe in God, that is a lie of omission and in combination with the lie told while under oath....
BEST TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.....
BEST TO TELL THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.....
Should I change my name to 'Gift' then?
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the point is to tell the truth whether you believe in God or not. but God is the final judge that you will have to answer to.
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leigh2154: Yes....If they do not believe in the oath as stated and take it anyway, they are guilty of a lie of omission.....on top of lying under oath...best just to tell the truth...
Okay, I understand what you're saying. Now let's take it a step further. When it is found out that they lied and are charge with perjury, do you think they have a defense that it doesn't matter if they lied cause they don't believe in God. Can they get away with it because of there non-existent religion?
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stringman: the point is to tell the truth whether you believe in God or not. but God is the final judge that you will have to answer to.
I completely agree that the truth should always be told particularly in court. I would be more scared of perjury then of God's wrath.
Now back to Leigh's suggestion to taking God out of the oath. Would the oath have the same strength if God wasn't in it?
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montecito: Okay, I understand what you're saying. Now let's take it a step further. When it is found out that they lied and are charge with perjury, do you think they have a defense that it doesn't matter if they lied cause they don't believe in God. Can they get away with it because of there non-existent religion?
Morning Monts...I guess I am not communicating well...participating on too many threads at one time I think...No, they do not have recourse based on being a non believer...They have ample opportunity to state this at the time the oath is presented, Also, there is 5th amendment right if you are talking about capital cases....No recourse if it is proven you lied under oath...
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Affirmations
An affirmation is a verbal, solemn and formal declaration, which is made in place of an oath. A person may choose to make an affirmation rather than taking an oath. An affirmation has the same effect as an oath.
An affirmation is a verbal, solemn and formal declaration, which is made in place of an oath. A person may choose to make an affirmation rather than taking an oath. An affirmation has the same effect as an oath.
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stringman: Affirmations
An affirmation is a verbal, solemn and formal declaration, which is made in place of an oath. A person may choose to make an affirmation rather than taking an oath. An affirmation has the same effect as an oath.
An affirmation is a verbal, solemn and formal declaration, which is made in place of an oath. A person may choose to make an affirmation rather than taking an oath. An affirmation has the same effect as an oath.
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"So help me God" has already been taken out of the oath in most courts in the US if I'm not mistaken.
To get to your question IMO it would make NO difference if you did or didn't believe in god for overturning a conviction. To offer such a defense would be laughed at I think.
To get to your question IMO it would make NO difference if you did or didn't believe in god for overturning a conviction. To offer such a defense would be laughed at I think.
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stringman: Affirmations
An affirmation is a verbal, solemn and formal declaration, which is made in place of an oath. A person may choose to make an affirmation rather than taking an oath. An affirmation has the same effect as an oath.
An affirmation is a verbal, solemn and formal declaration, which is made in place of an oath. A person may choose to make an affirmation rather than taking an oath. An affirmation has the same effect as an oath.
Correct and if a person takes the oath then the oath is binding in all forms....As by taking the oath they acknowledge the acceptance of God..
Hence the affirmation for folk who say they do not believe..
Folk here can swear on Oath cards and holy books are available for several religions. You can also opt to affirm instead of swear an oath. Mostly the same but no book involved.
Simple really....
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ooby_dooby: "So help me God" has already been taken out of the oath in most courts in the US if I'm not mistaken.
To get to your question IMO it would make NO difference if you did or didn't believe in god for overturning a conviction. To offer such a defense would be laughed at I think.
To get to your question IMO it would make NO difference if you did or didn't believe in god for overturning a conviction. To offer such a defense would be laughed at I think.
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leigh2154: Morning Monts...I guess I am not communicating well...participating on too many threads at one time I think...No, they do not have recourse based on being a non believer...They have ample opportunity to state this at the time the oath is presented, Also, there is 5th amendment right if you are talking about capital cases....No recourse if it is proven you lied under oath...
Perfectly understood. I know what you mean about being in more then one thread at a time. Good response.
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montecito: Perfectly understood. I know what you mean about being in more then one thread at a time. Good response.
Good plan!
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ooby_dooby: "So help me God" has already been taken out of the oath in most courts in the US if I'm not mistaken.
To get to your question IMO it would make NO difference if you did or didn't believe in god for overturning a conviction. To offer such a defense would be laughed at I think.
To get to your question IMO it would make NO difference if you did or didn't believe in god for overturning a conviction. To offer such a defense would be laughed at I think.
I know you are not required to put your hand on the bible but I wasn't aware that "God" was taken out of the oath in any state. I agree, it would be laughed at but I don't think it's impossible. There are people who would have the nerve to do that.
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The Clerk of the Court is required to administer legal jargon, otherwise known as the Oath, to each witness before testimony can proceed: “Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you God”.
When a witness says “yes” to the Oath, does it mean they would be worried about punishment from a higher power if they lie? Are they afraid to lie because they have now sworn to God to tell the truth? In the event of perjury, would God be the only one who could save them?
What about the witness who doesn’t believe in God and yet says “yes”. Is that person thinking…..I don’t believe in God so it doesn’t matter if I tell the truth.
If you say “yes” to the Oath, is it a request for divine guidance to help you tell the truth. Is the oath taker being made to understand that he or she is entering into a covenant that will incur the wrath of God if broken such as "may God smite me if I break this oath."
What about the person who doesn’t believe in God and yet takes the Oath?
Is that person governed by the Rules of Court or by a testament to “God”?