boeing's greed (23)

Mar 14, 2019 10:51 AM CST boeing's greed
finally, Boeing was forced to land all 737-8-9.
FAA said the day before, nothing is wrong
when people started cancelling flights here in usa
then, it was landed, for Boeing money come 1st
passengers 3rd. Just imagine, even Boeing
didn't know what was going on with those planes
or so they said.
Mar 14, 2019 10:56 AM CST boeing's greed
methuzelah: finally, Boeing was forced to land all 737-8-9.
FAA said the day before, nothing is wrong
when people started cancelling flights here in usa
then, it was landed, for Boeing money come 1st
passengers 3rd. Just imagine, even Boeing
didn't know what was going on with those planes
or so they said.
even Trump said, for psychological reasons I'm grounding those planes

psychological reasons?confused what about, 2 planes crashed, and people died
Mar 14, 2019 11:16 AM CST boeing's greed
I'll be flying to Frankfurt this coming Fall

I hope problem is solved, if not, I'll fly anyway

and if I die, I'll die smilinggrin pointing like thislaugh
Mar 14, 2019 11:59 AM CST boeing's greed
methuzelah: I'll be flying to Frankfurt this coming Fall I hope problem is solved, if not, I'll fly anyway and if I die, I'll die smiling like this
Try flying by Aeroflot - They use Airbuses BUT don't use Boeing Kites laugh laugh cheers
Mar 14, 2019 12:19 PM CST boeing's greed
bodleing2online today!
bodleing2online today!bodleing2Manchester, Greater Manchester, England UK30 Threads 2,722 Posts
methuzelah: finally, Boeing was forced to land all 737-8-9.
FAA said the day before, nothing is wrong
when people started cancelling flights here in usa
then, it was landed, for Boeing money come 1st
passengers 3rd. Just imagine, even Boeing
didn't know what was going on with those planes
or so they said.
They cerainy knew.
The aircraft uses a new ant-stall system which requires retraining of the pilots. This was done in a rushed manner so as not to concern any would be buyers.
Many pilots claimed the training was not thorough enough saying in many instances it was not much more than one hour.
Boeing of course deny this, saying all pilots received the appropriate training, but, it does make you wonder.
Mar 17, 2019 4:37 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
bodleing2: They cerainy knew.
The aircraft uses a new ant-stall system which requires retraining of the pilots. This was done in a rushed manner so as not to concern any would be buyers.
Many pilots claimed the training was not thorough enough saying in many instances it was not much more than one hour.
Boeing of course deny this, saying all pilots received the appropriate training, but, it does make you wonder.
Check out what airline Capt Ches (Sully) Sullenberger has to say about the matter ... it's very revealing and insightful!

Insightful as no one is more aware that the FAA and Aircraft makers do their absolute best to 'pin it on the pilot' whenever there's a disaster.

Most times of course the pilot dies in the wreck and is unable to defend him ... Sully is the guy who succeeded in making a soft landing on the Hudson river - which was only possible because of his thorough, to the point of intimate, awareness of the capabilities of the plane he was flying and his skill in handling it.

The movie was very revealing ...
Mar 18, 2019 12:26 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
bodleing2: They cerainy knew.
The aircraft uses a new ant-stall system which requires retraining of the pilots. This was done in a rushed manner so as not to concern any would be buyers.
Many pilots claimed the training was not thorough enough saying in many instances it was not much more than one hour.
Boeing of course deny this, saying all pilots received the appropriate training, but, it does make you wonder.
Following on from that and my reply ...

Transpires that Boeing persuaded the FAA that the 737AX was NOT a ' new aircraft model' which would have required all pilots operating them to gain a Type Rating before being authorised to fly them but merely a update of an existing model for which pilots already the required TR.

The 'BIG ISSUE' and the cause of the crash (though yet to be 'officially' confirmed) appears to have been centred round the fact that the engines are mounted far further forward on the wings than was the case with previous craft.

This of course changes ALL of the dynamics of balance and handling and effectivelly negates the value of training on previous models 'Handling' being the responses to given control inputs by the pilots and the expected outcomes in terms of craft behaviour (ie doing what it's supposed to do, and what it's EXPECTED to do)
That new 'far forward' engine position and weight distribution change means the craft will tend to go 'nose high' (which reduces airspeed & creates the risk of 'stalling' (stalling for dummies - loss of lift, big plane fall outta sky)
Then as well the MCAS computer system (which Boeing didn't tell pilots about or train them on) was supposed / intended to counter this nose high tendency by adjusting the taileron position thus pushing the nose down and countering the deadly stall. This the plane acted with a mind of it's own and did not, could not in fact, respond to the pilot's control input as the computer was putting the plane into a dive while announcing 'Don't Sink - Don't Sink' leading the pilots to try and pull the nose UP to which the computers responded by pushing the nose down again...
The solution apparently is to turn off MCAS ... but as nobody mentioned that to the pilots ... how could they know to turn it off or how to turn it off

Word has it that the 13 page product update for pilots was written even before the 737Max was flying and did not include anything about MCAS (arguably because mentioning the novel flight control system would itself have triggered the requirement for a new Type rating and all that entailed (as earlier) ...

And, reliable sources (US Pilots Union etc) have said the 'Boeing Training' consisted of a 2 hours self directed learning delivered vi an iPad ... still no mention of MCAS ?

Typically the gaining of a new model TR by a Comm Pilot requires 30/40 hours of technical school class room training and 30 plush hours in a simulator ... so, that's every pilot away from flight duties for 70 hours costing money rather than making money, plus the costs of training facilities, trainers, simulator time etc etc. Suppose each craft had a roster of 4 aircrew ie 2 pilots per crew (min) per aircraft in service.
At the time of the Air Ethiopia crash there were approx 300 737MAX in service

(4crew * 2pilots * 70 hours direct cost) + (4crew * 2pilots * 70 hours substitute crew costs ie overtime) + (4crew * 2pilots * 70 hours simulator and ground training cost) and at tis point the number runs into hundreds of billions additional cost to the airline operators!

And then there's the challenges of certifying thousands of aircraft technicians across the world while maintaining cover for the maintenance needs of the existing fleets...

Those additional new vs upgrade costs, had the truth been told might well have deterred sales to the airlines ... and, even if the 737MAX is quickly brought back into service. Those costs will most likely now have to be borne ... perhaps by Boeing ?
Mar 18, 2019 12:36 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
Many in the USA are now comparing this with the Ford Pinto Scandal that was unearthed by ralph Nader ... Ford accountants decided to NOT recall the pinto model for a known fuel pipe defect that caused the vehicle to explode in a ball of flames after quite minor rear end impacts 'Cheaper they said to pay out a few death suits than to recall all the Pintos on the planet'

Nader had quite a job as he was following a 'paper trail' ... electronic documents are somewhat easier to trail than paper and, IF Boeing are found to have made a similar decision ... it will cist them many billions, not to mention lost sales, loss of reputation and perhaps even loss of entire markets for decades to come ... Russia and China being two of their biggest customers to date!

Before 'The Usual Muppets' start their flame throwing ... I'm not claiming to be an airline industry expert, nor claiming that these post contains 'everything' that's known to date ... however it HAS been compiled from a number of reliable sources (inc Boeing, FAA, Pilots Union, Industry experts) and the basic principles of flight follow simple maths / physics rules such as apply to levers, vectors, forces, inputs and reactions ... anyone with a reasonable IQ and a modicum of desire can learn sufficient to understand sufficient to get the gist of this!

Essentially, if you're a halfway decent pool player you use these things intuitively !!!!

But for sure ... they're NOT likely to get away with blaming the pilot this time ...
Mar 18, 2019 12:38 AM CST boeing's greed
News released about the black box of the second crash says the cause was similar to the first....now after the first crash im sure there was an investigation and it showed the cause of the crash....yet the planes were still flying obviously without rectifying the problem....they can hardly say they didn't know....wave
Mar 18, 2019 1:11 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
M4_Mischief: News released about the black box of the second crash says the cause was similar to the first....now after the first crash im sure there was an investigation and it showed the cause of the crash....yet the planes were still flying obviously without rectifying the problem....they can hardly say they didn't know....
In the first crash they were pushing it off as pilot error ... and using the data ( graph of hight v distance anomalies) to argue 'erratic inputs' when it's now seems apparent that the MCAS system was defeating the pilot's attempts to correct the control inputs of the MCAS system ... which they did not know how it worked, or in fact that it even existed !

There's at least two reports through the NASA 'Anonymous Professional Reporting Scheme' of similar erratic aircraft behaviour where the flight crew realised that 'something had happened' when they turned on the autopilot at cruise height and had the presence of mind to turn that off again which returned control to themselves... but they reported similar erratic aircraft behaviour ...

So ...
Mar 18, 2019 1:34 AM CST boeing's greed
so they definitely put money before lives....that surely should have triggered at least a training requirement but they did nothing another and allowed another crash instead.....wave
Mar 18, 2019 1:44 AM CST boeing's greed
raphael119online today!
raphael119online today!raphael119washington d.c., District of Columbia USA36 Threads 4 Polls 5,397 Posts
HexagonKeySet: Many in the USA are now comparing this with the Ford Pinto Scandal that was unearthed by ralph Nader ... Ford accountants decided to NOT recall the pinto model for a known fuel pipe defect that caused the vehicle to explode in a ball of flames after quite minor rear end impacts 'Cheaper they said to pay out a few death suits than to recall all the Pintos on the planet'

Nader had quite a job as he was following a 'paper trail' ... electronic documents are somewhat easier to trail than paper and, IF Boeing are found to have made a similar decision ... it will cist them many billions, not to mention lost sales, loss of reputation and perhaps even loss of entire markets for decades to come ... Russia and China being two of their biggest customers to date!

Before 'The Usual Muppets' start their flame throwing ... I'm not claiming to be an airline industry expert, nor claiming that these post contains 'everything' that's known to date ... however it HAS been compiled from a number of reliable sources (inc Boeing, FAA, Pilots Union, Industry experts) and the basic principles of flight follow simple maths / physics rules such as apply to levers, vectors, forces, inputs and reactions ... anyone with a reasonable IQ and a modicum of desire can learn sufficient to understand sufficient to get the gist of this!

Essentially, if you're a halfway decent pool player you use these things intuitively !!!!

But for sure ... they're NOT likely to get away with blaming the pilot this time ...
Darn I was hoping to flame this post.
Excellent analysis of the tragedy, although Im not knowledgeable about the subject.
I wonder what role the government shutdown had.
I saw where Boeing had other later safety violations after the disaster too.
Mar 18, 2019 2:12 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
raphael119: Darn I was hoping to flame this post.
Excellent analysis of the tragedy, although Im not knowledgeable about the subject.
I wonder what role the government shutdown had.
I saw where Boeing had other later safety violations after the disaster too.
.

Dunno if I'm more thrilled by your inability to find something wrong or (perhaps) you've had some happy restoration of rationality ... either way, it's all good.

You DID in earlir time and date (twice or thrice) as I recall mention (Blame) Trump for some mysterious part in this.

As I said at that time the woman who made that claim was shot down within the hour by the FAA who pointed out that their staff perform 'essential services' related to safety and that her allegations were therefore groundless - there was no interruption to the services they provide nor to the work they carry out.

You know how corporations work ... muddy the waters, distract from the ACTUAL by by weaving 'fake facts' and 'red herrings' in so that people become overwhelmed and give up thinking about 'the situation' at hand ...



cheers
Mar 18, 2019 2:22 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
addenda ...

Yes, saw you mention safety infringements (in respect of safety procedures pertaining to aircraft re-fueling I think?)

Without laying any accusation just making a general observation - it's often the case that standards slip @ the highest levels then similarly they slip in down the line!

Seeing that VW were fined $25 BILLION in the US for dieselgate ( which so far as I know involved no loss of life) and are now fighting another (arguably spurious) claim by the a different Dept of the US Government who seem only to have the goal of self enrichment at the expense of a foreign company I wonder if we might see similarly humongous penalties applied to their own domestic industry?

Or, will lobbyists do as they did for the banks and car makers ... make a case that Boeing is too big and important to punish?

VW also suffered massive penalties in other markets - EU, India, Australia ... will they be able to inflict similar heavy penalties or will Trump threaten sanctions against them and call them enemies ???
Mar 18, 2019 2:58 AM CST boeing's greed
raphael119online today!
raphael119online today!raphael119washington d.c., District of Columbia USA36 Threads 4 Polls 5,397 Posts
HexagonKeySet: addenda ...

Yes, saw you mention safety infringements (in respect of safety procedures pertaining to aircraft re-fueling I think?)

Without laying any accusation just making a general observation - it's often the case that standards slip @ the highest levels then similarly they slip in down the line!

Seeing that VW were fined $25 BILLION in the US for dieselgate ( which so far as I know involved no loss of life) and are now fighting another (arguably spurious) claim by the a different Dept of the US Government who seem only to have the goal of self enrichment at the expense of a foreign company I wonder if we might see similarly humongous penalties applied to their own domestic industry?

Or, will lobbyists do as they did for the banks and car makers ... make a case that Boeing is too big and important to punish?

VW also suffered massive penalties in other markets - EU, India, Australia ... will they be able to inflict similar heavy penalties or will Trump threaten sanctions against them and call them enemies ???
I believe lobbies or a category of them are a free countries biggest threat. I dont have a clue what to advocate for to solve the problem in U.S. Everyone in government needs them to survive politics. The U.S. is corrupt to the core with them.
Mar 18, 2019 3:08 AM CST boeing's greed
HexagonKeySet
HexagonKeySetHexagonKeySetCentral, Waikato New Zealand141 Threads 8 Polls 4,677 Posts
raphael119: I believe lobbies or a category of them are a free countries biggest threat. I dont have a clue what to advocate for to solve the problem in U.S. Everyone in government needs them to survive politics. The U.S. is corrupt to the core with them.
Unless someone else has hijacked the raphael account ... I'm stunned by the sudden appearance of clarity and rationality...

On the other hand perhaps ONLY the corrupt politicians 'need them' ... we'll be hearing your support for a draining of the swamp next ( even if you can't bring yourself to support DT - to be honest I'm wondering if he's being dragged down by the very crocs n gators he went in to cull !

cheers
Mar 18, 2019 4:08 AM CST boeing's greed
raphael119: I believe lobbies or a category of them are a free countries biggest threat. I dont have a clue what to advocate for to solve the problem in U.S. Everyone in government needs them to survive politics. The U.S. is corrupt to the core with them.
you might want to talk to that Podesta/Clinton-Gang!popcorn
Mar 18, 2019 11:06 AM CST boeing's greed
MikeD12: Try flying by Aeroflot - They use Airbuses BUT don't use Boeing Kites
Aeroflot? who do you think I am, Trump? Nyet

laugh down with Russiabeer
Mar 18, 2019 11:19 AM CST boeing's greed
another thing, 2 planes down, but?

full of muslimscool
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