Where we created by Religion or Evolution (353)

Oct 10, 2009 2:58 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
illu_66
illu_66illu_66Here, Andalusia Spain31 Threads 3 Polls 2,368 Posts
MikeHD: It's early afternoon here. I will be out getting turned down tonight.


heheh - well enjoy the ridicule, slapped face and 'not if you were the last guy on earth' looks. I've actually given up!! lol
Oct 10, 2009 3:00 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
illu_66: heheh - well enjoy the ridicule, slapped face and 'not if you were the last guy on earth' looks. I've actually given up!! lol



Women are impossible to figure out, so there is always hope. thumbs up
Oct 13, 2009 6:23 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
Gowanheart
GowanheartGowanheartGULFPORT, Mississippi USA3 Threads 570 Posts
I still believe in evolution.
Oct 14, 2009 12:52 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol
emannigolemannigolJossakin Pirkanmaalla, Southern Finland Finland356 Posts
MikeHD: in•cre•du•li•ty
Pronunciation: \?in-kri-'dü-l?-te, -'dyü-\
Function: noun
Date: 15th century
: the quality or state of being incredulous : DISBELIEF

“incredulity towards meta-narratives” ? * Do you mean I am not "postmodern" in my thinking? If I am not, then either are you my friend. Postmodernists reject Science (and evolution) just as they reject religion. They are apposed to anyone who claims to have the answer. Postmodernism is an illegitimate offspring of modernism that seeks to murder it’s parent. The idea is to level the playing field. Everyone’s position is of equal value as everyone’s version of truth is equally true. That is except Christianity. They really have a difficult time with those bible thumpers.

*Lyotard, Jean-François (1979). La Condition Postmoderne: Rapport sur le Savoir. Les Editions de Minuit. pp. 7.


A Red herring? confused



MikeHD: And who or what intelligence is doing the selecting? You have to have something intelligent to select for selecting to occur don’t you?

Right?


Not necessarily.

For example, there might be a hole in a pocket. Large enough to let only small coins through. I wouldn't call that hole intelligent even if it's a part in the selection process of separating small sized coins from larger sized coins..

MikeHD: Would you like for me to teach you the difference between the words micro and macro? I believe these were defined well before they were being used by Creationists.


They were defined before but creationists are using different definations.

Macroevolution is evolution at the species level or higher. Microevolution is evolution under the species level. Macroevolution happens with the accumulation of small changes (microevolution) over many generations.

For creationists macroevolution is usually meaning large changes.

MikeHD: From small scale changes you assert large scale changes are not only possible, but the only possible explanation.


Not large changes, but accumulation of small changes.

MikeHD: How is DNA produced?


Incredible! wow

However, we can't make any conclusions from personal incredulity.dunno

Or we can, but that would be fallacious. wink
Oct 14, 2009 12:54 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
WhovianGeneva
WhovianGenevaWhovianGenevaGeneva, Switzerland28 Threads 1 Polls 466 Posts
Third choice : Alien being (you know extra-terrestrials...)

this guy is mad conversing perhaps....
Oct 15, 2009 10:19 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol:
For example, there might be a hole in a pocket. Large enough to let only small coins through. I wouldn't call that hole intelligent even if it's a part in the selection process of separating small sized coins from larger sized coins..


Yes, but now you have the problem of where the pocket and the hole came from. You cannot simply keep pushing the question back because you eventually arrive at the big bang, and then what? Still no explanation, but now you're at a place less advantageous for which you can establish an argument. wink:


emannigol: Macroevolution happens with the accumulation of small changes (microevolution) over many generations.


Of which there is still NO evidence. dunno

emannigol: However, we can't make any conclusions from personal incredulity.

Or we can, but that would be fallacious.


You love that word don't you?

For those who do not know what it means,incredulity means the state or quality of being incredulous; disbelief, or the refusal or reluctance to believe. Which of course is what evolution is based on. The refusal to believe in a Creator. Now you could say I am refusing to believe in that magical, mythical deity called "Natural Selection" (the evolution fill in the gap measure), but that is what all of this is all about. Which side fits the evidence better.

Just because a Christian believes it does not make it true or untrue. Truth is truth regardless who believes it. If the whole world refused to believe in gravity, they would still die if they jumped out of an airplane at 30,000 ft without a parachute. Why? Because gravity is something true and real. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

Besides, most judgements and conclusions are based on personal incredulity. That is why Darwinists are forced to dismiss Intelligent Desin BEFORE they examine the evidence. It is the only way to reinforce their personal incredulity. tip hat
Oct 15, 2009 11:43 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol
emannigolemannigolJossakin Pirkanmaalla, Southern Finland Finland356 Posts
MikeHD: Yes, but now you have the problem of where the pocket and the hole came from. You cannot simply keep pushing the question back because you eventually arrive at the big bang, and then what? Still no explanation, but now you're at a place less advantageous for which you can establish an argument.


We were talking about the selection without intelligence. In this context it doesn't matter where the pocket or hole came from. You're in same situation with your beliefs as I'm with the big bang. Then what, could be always asked. Hole in the pocket is existing no matter if the big bang was the beginning of everything or not.

MikeHD: Of which there is still NO evidence.


There's no known reasons limiting accumulation of small changes. That's why the fossil record and DNA are so strong evidence of macroevolution.

MikeHD: For those who do not know what it means,incredulity means the state or quality of being incredulous; disbelief, or the refusal or reluctance to believe. Which of course is what evolution is based on. The refusal to believe in a Creator.


Even the Catholic Church has accepted the evidence of evolution, so evolution isn't same as rejecting the existence of deities. When we are taught math, physics or chemistry we aren't using unobservable variables like deities; we have to use observable variables like energy, velocity and mass. Biology and evolution are secularistic in the same way as other sciences.

MikeHD: Besides, most judgements and conclusions are based on personal incredulity. That is why Darwinists are forced to dismiss Intelligent Desin BEFORE they examine the evidence. It is the only way to reinforce their personal incredulity.


Not true. I have explained here why the evidence and conclusions you have presented for ID are rejected by the scientific community. Incredulity is expected when the claims are based on fallacious arguments. This is different than making an argument from personal incredulity.

conversing
Oct 15, 2009 11:48 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
Boban1
Boban1Boban1bigplace, Central Serbia Serbia144 Threads 5 Polls 18,789 Posts
Gowanheart: I still believe in evolution.


And i still believe that we have been brought here ,on this planet

by the ancient ....from another planet....not only one planet...
Oct 15, 2009 12:01 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
MikeHD: Yes, but now you have the problem of where the pocket and the hole came from. You cannot simply keep pushing the question back because you eventually arrive at the big bang, and then what? Still no explanation, but now you're at a place less advantageous for which you can establish an argument. :

Of which there is still NO evidence.



You love that word don't you?

For those who do not know what it means,incredulity means the state or quality of being incredulous; disbelief, or the refusal or reluctance to believe. Which of course is what evolution is based on. The refusal to believe in a Creator. Now you could say I am refusing to believe in that magical, mythical deity called "Natural Selection" (the evolution fill in the gap measure), but that is what all of this is all about. Which side fits the evidence better.

Just because a Christian believes it does not make it true or untrue. Truth is truth regardless who believes it. If the whole world refused to believe in gravity, they would still die if they jumped out of an airplane at 30,000 ft without a parachute. Why? Because gravity is something true and real. Doesn't matter if you believe it or not.

Besides, most judgements and conclusions are based on personal incredulity. That is why Darwinists are forced to dismiss Intelligent Desin BEFORE they examine the evidence. It is the only way to reinforce their personal incredulity.
wouldn't be Gravity that kills you!rolling on the floor laughing
Oct 15, 2009 12:02 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
Conrad73: wouldn't be Gravity that kills you!
Airpressure at about 4.3 psi versus 14.7 psirolling on the floor laughing
Oct 15, 2009 12:43 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
afdalus
afdalusafdalusNew Delhi, Delhi India2 Threads 15 Posts
Religion has its place and meaning but human journey is about evolution .But most importantly as i see it the question we need to ask is apart from just survival ,does evolution has any meaning, what say we have in evolution other then survival and propagation, as humans can we compartmentalise animalistic nature and consciousness .
Oct 15, 2009 6:19 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
Conrad73: Airpressure at about 4.3 psi versus 14.7 psi


I guess that sudden stop might wake you up a bit. laugh
Oct 17, 2009 10:27 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol:
There's no known reasons limiting accumulation of small changes. That's why the fossil record and DNA are so strong evidence of macroevolution.


There is the limit of common sense. And since the evidence does not match evolution, Darwinists resort to wild speculation.

If the fossil record and DNA are such strong evidence, what do you need "Punctuated Equilibrium for"? dunno
Oct 17, 2009 11:09 AM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
It is interesting to see how tenaciously Darwinists stick to their guns.

"Our willingness to accept scientific claims that are against common sense is the key to an understanding of the real struggle between science and the supernatural. We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life (which has given birth to postmodernism), in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover that materialism is absolute for we cannot allow a divine foot in the door." Richard Lewontin (Darwinist from Harvard University)

Why would Darwinists not want to “allow a divine foot in the door”? Here are four major reasons:

#1 By admitting God, Darwinists would be admitting that they are not the highest authority when it comes to truth. Currently, in this technologically advanced world, scientists are viewed by the public as the revered authority figures – the new priests who make a better life possible and who comprise the sole source of objective truth. Allowing the possibility of God would be to relinquish their claim of superior authority.

#2 By admitting God, Darwinists would be admitting that they don’t have absolute authority when it comes to explaining causes. In other words, if God exists, they couldn’t explain every event as the result of predictable natural laws. Richard Lewontin put it this way: “To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles many happen.” As Robert Jastrow (an agnostic astronomer) noted, when that happens, “the scientist has lost control,” certainly to God, and perhaps to the theologian.

#3 By admitting God, Darwinists would risk losing financial security and professional admiration. How so? Because there’s tremendous pressure in the academic community to publish something that supports evolution (like Ardipithecus ramidus). Find something important, and you may find yourself on the cover of National Geographic or the subject of a PBS special. Find nothing, and you may find yourself out of a job, out of grant money, or at least out of favor with your materialist colleagues. So there’s a money, job security, and prestige motive to advance the Darwinian worldview.

Finally, #4 Perhaps the most significantly, by admitting God, Darwinists would be admitting that they don’t have the authority to define right and wrong for themselves. By ruling out the supernatural, Darwinists can avoid the possibility that anything is morally prohibited. For if there is no God, everything is lawful. If Darwinism is true, then you can sleep with whomever you choose. In Darwinism, there is no moral accountability. Unless you want to argue that morals are subject to natural selection as well. giggle
Oct 17, 2009 12:45 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol
emannigolemannigolJossakin Pirkanmaalla, Southern Finland Finland356 Posts
MikeHD: Moreover that materialism is absolute for we cannot allow a divine foot in the door.


Somebody's mixing materialism and methodological naturalism. scold





MikeHD:
#1 By admitting God, Darwinists would be admitting that they are not the highest authority when it comes to truth...

#2 By admitting God, Darwinists would be admitting that they don’t have absolute authority when it comes to explaining causes...


Appeal to authority would be fallacious anyway. roll eyes



MikeHD:
#3 By admitting God, Darwinists would risk losing financial security and professional admiration... So there’s a money, job security, and prestige motive to advance the Darwinian worldview.


Appeal to motive. Guess what? Fallacious. wink



MikeHD:
Finally, #4 Perhaps the most significantly, by admitting God, Darwinists would be admitting that they don’t have the authority to define right and wrong for themselves. By ruling out the supernatural, Darwinists can avoid the possibility that anything is morally prohibited. For if there is no God, everything is lawful. If Darwinism is true, then you can sleep with whomever you choose. In Darwinism, there is no moral accountability. Unless you want to argue that morals are subject to natural selection as well.


Naturalistic fallacy and Hume's quillotine have already been explained. yawn





bouquet
Oct 17, 2009 12:57 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol
emannigolemannigolJossakin Pirkanmaalla, Southern Finland Finland356 Posts
MikeHD: There is the limit of common sense. And since the evidence does not match evolution, Darwinists resort to wild speculation.


In science you would have to proove something is limiting the accumulation of small changes. Unproven so far. Don't have to speculate anything. It's also called empiricism.



MikeHD: If the fossil record and DNA are such strong evidence, what do you need "Punctuated Equilibrium for"?


That's what the fossil record is showing. I have already explained that evolution is faster in small populations than in larger populations. However, it's more probable that a member of large numbered population living in vast area during a long period of time would fossilize, than member of small isolated population.

conversing
Oct 17, 2009 1:32 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
emannigol
emannigolemannigolJossakin Pirkanmaalla, Southern Finland Finland356 Posts
I almost forgot an appeal to consequences.




By the way... Is anybody following this topic anymore?
Oct 17, 2009 1:43 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
confused I don't know any apes and I do not communicate with them, so I would have to say religion or faith.
Oct 17, 2009 1:48 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
crotalus_p
crotalus_pcrotalus_pRush, Dublin Ireland43 Threads 6 Polls 2,789 Posts
NAKEDMUDPEOPLE: I don't know any apes and I do not communicate with them, so I would have to say religion or faith.
What does that have to do with it ???
Oct 17, 2009 1:59 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
crotalus_p: What does that have to do with it ???


First, I do need to apologise for not reading the whole thread.
We were created! The link that is missing has nothing to do with who we are today.
Community is everywhere.
Oct 17, 2009 2:14 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
Wandering in a vast forest at night, I have only
a faint light to guide me. A stranger appears and
says to me:‘My friend, you should blow out your
candle in order to find your way more clearly.’
This stranger was a theologian.
Diderot, Addition aux pensées philosophiques
Oct 17, 2009 6:06 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
crotalus_p
crotalus_pcrotalus_pRush, Dublin Ireland43 Threads 6 Polls 2,789 Posts
NAKEDMUDPEOPLE: First, I do need to apologise for not reading the whole thread.
We were created! The link that is missing has nothing to do with who we are today.Community is everywhere.
What link are you talking about ???
Oct 18, 2009 8:27 PM CST Where we created by Religion or Evolution
anonymous1
anonymous1anonymous1Hawaii, USA10 Threads 1 Polls 1,649 Posts
Considering what happens when the fossil evidence is magnified emough times... I don't believe in evolution.


I don't believe religion created anything.


I do believe we were created.
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