Ambivalence: Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay (290)
doberman3: Stick it in your ear Jvaski where it belongs.
"Ear"??
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doberman3: Stick it in your ear Jvaski where it belongs.
Just ignore him.He can be alittle pain when he wants to.
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Ambrose2007: Well, in gg's defense, I think she is mostly making a parody of what she believes is my inclination to sort out personal issues by posting to CS.
Like Eagle wrote, it's a lot about perception. GG perceived that I authored certain threads primarily to have my opinion validated; that is, so I could point to the thread and say: "Look at what all these people said, which proves I'm right and you're wrong!"
The perceived implication is that I value strangers' or other friends' opinions more than I did hers.
That is completely false. The opinion that I valued FAR above all others was hers. This was not the reason I posted relationship threads here.
One could also make the point that by doing something that I knew bothered her I was being selfish and thoughtless. I think that's a valid point.
As to the "validation" part...well, posting something on CS with the idea of getting your thoughts "rubber-stamped" is a highly unrealistic and even treacherous endeavor. If you author a thread for that purpose you're usually going to be sadly disappointed - in fact, more often than not you'll have your head handed to you. That has certainly been my experience (see this thread for an example!).
I believe that my ex very much underestimated my basic urge to discuss and debate philosophic and psychological issues. That's why I'm on several philosophy lists and a psychology list. I find deep-level discussion very satisfying. It's who I am. But whenever I did this on CS, it was interpreted - wrongly, for the most part - as an attack, and more wrongly, as a vote of no-confidence in her opinions.
SO why did I do it, knowing it was thusly perceived? Out of frustration mostly, and also because I believe it wasn't reasonable to constrain me from doing something I love (deep-level discussions on issues of interest to me), when what I was doing truly wasn't about negating her views. I feel it was unfair to be so constrained because those kinds of discussions were largely loathed by my significant other. That was extremely frustrating.
Every friend I've made on here, and every discussion I've had with them, was inspired by that frustration. Things I wanted to talk about simply weren't being talked about - at least not in a way that I felt terribly satisfying. So I looked to CS and others to do this. It was not about their opinions being more important - nothing could be further from the truth! - but rather that I could have them at all.
Like Eagle wrote, it's a lot about perception. GG perceived that I authored certain threads primarily to have my opinion validated; that is, so I could point to the thread and say: "Look at what all these people said, which proves I'm right and you're wrong!"
The perceived implication is that I value strangers' or other friends' opinions more than I did hers.
That is completely false. The opinion that I valued FAR above all others was hers. This was not the reason I posted relationship threads here.
One could also make the point that by doing something that I knew bothered her I was being selfish and thoughtless. I think that's a valid point.
As to the "validation" part...well, posting something on CS with the idea of getting your thoughts "rubber-stamped" is a highly unrealistic and even treacherous endeavor. If you author a thread for that purpose you're usually going to be sadly disappointed - in fact, more often than not you'll have your head handed to you. That has certainly been my experience (see this thread for an example!).
I believe that my ex very much underestimated my basic urge to discuss and debate philosophic and psychological issues. That's why I'm on several philosophy lists and a psychology list. I find deep-level discussion very satisfying. It's who I am. But whenever I did this on CS, it was interpreted - wrongly, for the most part - as an attack, and more wrongly, as a vote of no-confidence in her opinions.
SO why did I do it, knowing it was thusly perceived? Out of frustration mostly, and also because I believe it wasn't reasonable to constrain me from doing something I love (deep-level discussions on issues of interest to me), when what I was doing truly wasn't about negating her views. I feel it was unfair to be so constrained because those kinds of discussions were largely loathed by my significant other. That was extremely frustrating.
Every friend I've made on here, and every discussion I've had with them, was inspired by that frustration. Things I wanted to talk about simply weren't being talked about - at least not in a way that I felt terribly satisfying. So I looked to CS and others to do this. It was not about their opinions being more important - nothing could be further from the truth! - but rather that I could have them at all.
I can fully understand and appreciate the level of frustration you speak of. I think when the other person does that, withold contact/responses to what is obviously driving you nuts watning some answsers, that is a form of control. Control over the other and in a particularly destructive way. Such interaction, or lack of, will only continue in a circular fashion, lacking any kind of structure or development. Crazy-making stuff.
I know it is a large part of you, to have to talk, discuss, write. Sometimes though, there can be just as much merit, if not more, in engaging in behaviour that goes against our nature, that is, to do something that does not come so naturally to us. In this case, an example could be quiet meditation and deep, inner reflection. Sometimes the best answers come with silence. JMO.
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doberman3: Funny, are you writing about me? This is what happened to me and it nearly killed me. My ex was 49 and got involved with a chick as young as his niece, 25 years old. Also, 25 years we were married. He also got her pregnant twice and I have no children.
I had tried my best to keep the marriage together.
The best way out, was for him to get a separation and to get the hell out of my life. Not to add another person to satify his needs.
But believe me, the adultry made the breakup simple.
The complexes of A and GG prove what can happen when relationships are not cut completely.
The man can go back to his ex and have a fling.
Then he goes back to the new person in his life. Diaster.
When this happens, believe me, the woman does not forget.
There has to be complete honesty forever more, and
commentment to make the past fade.
But there is also the complication of her ex.
I disagree that this should be kept private. This is site for
International dating. People do find each other and it either works or doesn't.
There are times that input from others can help.
I sincerely wish you the best Ambrose and GG.
If you both feel the relationship can be helped with therapy,
then do it. But it can last 6 months and both have to be
willing to be there.
If not, you did have a relationship and it sounded like
you both loved each other.
The Dobe
I
I had tried my best to keep the marriage together.
The best way out, was for him to get a separation and to get the hell out of my life. Not to add another person to satify his needs.
But believe me, the adultry made the breakup simple.
The complexes of A and GG prove what can happen when relationships are not cut completely.
The man can go back to his ex and have a fling.
Then he goes back to the new person in his life. Diaster.
When this happens, believe me, the woman does not forget.
There has to be complete honesty forever more, and
commentment to make the past fade.
But there is also the complication of her ex.
I disagree that this should be kept private. This is site for
International dating. People do find each other and it either works or doesn't.
There are times that input from others can help.
I sincerely wish you the best Ambrose and GG.
If you both feel the relationship can be helped with therapy,
then do it. But it can last 6 months and both have to be
willing to be there.
If not, you did have a relationship and it sounded like
you both loved each other.
The Dobe
I
I don't know anything about your personal business Dobe so the example I wrote about was just that, a simple fairytale example. Furthermore, I have no opinion about GG and Ambrose's situation.
I usually try to simplify things rather than looking at things eight ways on a four sided wall. If I'm in a situation of "should I or shouldn't I" I'll go with the one that's safe, the one that makes common sense and doesn't create further risk and turmoil.
I didn't mean to come back in this thread but I wanted to be respectful and respond to Dobe..
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venere08: I can fully understand and appreciate the level of frustration you speak of. I think when the other person does that, withold contact/responses to what is obviously driving you nuts watning some answsers, that is a form of control. Control over the other and in a particularly destructive way. Such interaction, or lack of, will only continue in a circular fashion, lacking any kind of structure or development. Crazy-making stuff.
I know it is a large part of you, to have to talk, discuss, write. Sometimes though, there can be just as much merit, if not more, in engaging in behaviour that goes against our nature, that is, to do something that does not come so naturally to us. In this case, an example could be quiet meditation and deep, inner reflection. Sometimes the best answers come with silence. JMO.
I know it is a large part of you, to have to talk, discuss, write. Sometimes though, there can be just as much merit, if not more, in engaging in behaviour that goes against our nature, that is, to do something that does not come so naturally to us. In this case, an example could be quiet meditation and deep, inner reflection. Sometimes the best answers come with silence. JMO.
p.s. sometimes though, it might be necessary to withold all contact from the other person, simply because it seems obvious that any further discussion will get 'nowhere' but further circular arguments. I did that, only once. Just never responded to any further contact. It was the only way to deal with a deluge of venting, irrational txt messages. I summed the guy up as being a total nutter, a real vengeful, manipulative OCD type. The behaviour eventually stopped. The only other txt messages he then sent weeks later, wer a couple of toned down, civil 'hope all is well' type messages. Again, more attempts to manipulate a response from me. I desisted and never did respond.
The above is no reflection on you and GG, as I don't wish to make direct comment on things so personal, other than to provide general comments to illustrate my points. Comments that are relevant to relationships (in the western world).
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montecito: I don't know anything about your personal business Dobe so the example I wrote about was just that, a simple fairytale example. Furthermore, I have no opinion about GG and Ambrose's situation.
I usually try to simplify things rather than looking at things eight ways on a four sided wall. If I'm in a situation of "should I or shouldn't I" I'll go with the one that's safe, the one that makes common sense and doesn't create further risk and turmoil.
I didn't mean to come back in this thread but I wanted to be respectful and respond to Dobe..
I usually try to simplify things rather than looking at things eight ways on a four sided wall. If I'm in a situation of "should I or shouldn't I" I'll go with the one that's safe, the one that makes common sense and doesn't create further risk and turmoil.
I didn't mean to come back in this thread but I wanted to be respectful and respond to Dobe..
Hi, Montecito, I knew you knew nothing of my past. But I was struck by you wrote. The pain that I went through with the discovery could have been avoided by his getting separated/divorce. That's all.
As for should I, or shouldn't I, I also weigh things out.
Thanks for answering.
The things we do to have love in our lives. I think alot depends on the match of the two people.
Things will either work very well or not.
Even so, there has to be constant thoughtfullness between both partners and discussion to keep things on track.
But in the end it is well worth it.
The Dobe
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You're all nuts, no exclusions, sorry but .. big meat rules. 
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venere08: I can fully understand and appreciate the level of frustration you speak of. I think when the other person does that, withold contact/responses to what is obviously driving you nuts watning some answsers, that is a form of control. Control over the other and in a particularly destructive way. Such interaction, or lack of, will only continue in a circular fashion, lacking any kind of structure or development. Crazy-making stuff.
I know it is a large part of you, to have to talk, discuss, write. Sometimes though, there can be just as much merit, if not more, in engaging in behaviour that goes against our nature, that is, to do something that does not come so naturally to us. In this case, an example could be quiet meditation and deep, inner reflection. Sometimes the best answers come with silence. JMO.
I know it is a large part of you, to have to talk, discuss, write. Sometimes though, there can be just as much merit, if not more, in engaging in behaviour that goes against our nature, that is, to do something that does not come so naturally to us. In this case, an example could be quiet meditation and deep, inner reflection. Sometimes the best answers come with silence. JMO.
Yeah, I have some major issues with silence. Sometimes that is the best, for sure. (I know my ex hates the Silent Treatment every bit as much as I do, but perhaps she doesn't mind it as much when she's in control of it?)
I kept flapping my mouth here, and that definitely accelerated matters, but she wasn't talking to me before I started these threads, so I doubt not creating them would've changed matters in that regard.
Maybe I'm being totally delusional, but I believe at this moment that I did both of us a favor in a way, because I gave my ex the strength and excuse to do what I believe she's wanted to do for several months if not longer - namely, to find a way to exit our relationship. And I was looking for that, too, I think. But neither of us were conscious of this, except perhaps dimly for most of those months.
It was like Al speculated: "Harmonious mutual destruction" (or something like that). I provoke her, she provokes me. A dance we've been playing for at least a year. And here we are...
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Ambrose2007: Yeah, I have some major issues with silence. Sometimes that is the best, for sure. (I know my ex hates the Silent Treatment every bit as much as I do, but perhaps she doesn't mind it as much when she's in control of it?)
I kept flapping my mouth here, and that definitely accelerated matters, but she wasn't talking to me before I started these threads, so I doubt not creating them would've changed matters in that regard.
Maybe I'm being totally delusional, but I believe at this moment that I did both of us a favor in a way, because I gave my ex the strength and excuse to do what I believe she's wanted to do for several months if not longer - namely, to find a way to exit our relationship. And I was looking for that, too, I think. But neither of us were conscious of this, except perhaps dimly for most of those months.
It was like Al speculated: "Harmonious mutual destruction" (or something like that). I provoke her, she provokes me. A dance we've been playing for at least a year. And here we are...
I kept flapping my mouth here, and that definitely accelerated matters, but she wasn't talking to me before I started these threads, so I doubt not creating them would've changed matters in that regard.
Maybe I'm being totally delusional, but I believe at this moment that I did both of us a favor in a way, because I gave my ex the strength and excuse to do what I believe she's wanted to do for several months if not longer - namely, to find a way to exit our relationship. And I was looking for that, too, I think. But neither of us were conscious of this, except perhaps dimly for most of those months.
It was like Al speculated: "Harmonious mutual destruction" (or something like that). I provoke her, she provokes me. A dance we've been playing for at least a year. And here we are...
Well, mutual destruction or not, it's done.
Hurting is one of the toughest things to deal with. It can just eat away at you.
What is left is do your best to focus on all the good things about the relationship, what you gained from each other and what you learned about yourself. I know you know that though.
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venere08: Well, mutual destruction or not, it's done.
Hurting is one of the toughest things to deal with. It can just eat away at you.
What is left is do your best to focus on all the good things about the relationship, what you gained from each other and what you learned about yourself. I know you know that though.
Hurting is one of the toughest things to deal with. It can just eat away at you.
What is left is do your best to focus on all the good things about the relationship, what you gained from each other and what you learned about yourself. I know you know that though.
When I focus on those good things - those many magical moments - I cannot reconcile that person with the person who posted a hit-piece on me on a public forum, unfortunately. I find it nearly impossible to believe those people are one and the same. The person I knew was discreet and kind and loving. That person will always shine in my memory. I really don't know who this person is. I'm being serious. It's as though she duct-taped and tied the person I love and his holding in her a closet or maybe some dark dungeon or something.
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Ambrose2007: When I focus on those good things - those many magical moments - I cannot reconcile that person with the person who posted a hit-piece on me on a public forum, unfortunately. I find it nearly impossible to believe those people are one and the same. The person I knew was discreet and kind and loving. That person will always shine in my memory. I really don't know who this person is. I'm being serious. It's as though she duct-taped and tied the person I love and his holding in her a closet or maybe some dark dungeon or something.
Sometimes certain things can change people.I'm not the same person I was 3 yrs ago.I've changed alot.I used to trust people now I don't.
I used to be such a giving person and I guess I just became people burnt out of people taking advantage of me.I never used to stand up for myself cause I was afraid to step on toes.Now I have no problem telling someone who ticks me off where to go.
You just get to the point where you reach your limit.
If the man I'm with now would've cheated on me with his ex wife I'd thrown him to the curb.He wouldn't be trying to crawl back into my good graces.
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Ambrose2007: When I focus on those good things - those many magical moments - I cannot reconcile that person with the person who posted a hit-piece on me on a public forum, unfortunately. I find it nearly impossible to believe those people are one and the same. The person I knew was discreet and kind and loving. That person will always shine in my memory. I really don't know who this person is. I'm being serious. It's as though she duct-taped and tied the person I love and his holding in her a closet or maybe some dark dungeon or something.
It's the same person Jeff. A question ... What would love do if nothing else worked?
You mentioned yourself that, that particular event was what you needed to move on. I know it sounds contradictory but love does what it needs to do, to reach the goal, even if it means setting someone free in the most unattractive of ways. In what we call our subconscious, lies the real ruler of our lives. Another good reason for meditation.
You want to see the love in that I think. It is in disguise in appearance, but that book, that event you see, is only it's cover. Much deeper is the real story that love is/was writing for both of you.
I know, I'm zenning again.
Gratefulness is an amazing tool for healing and the best way to find it, is to see what love did for you, not what it had to do to you to affect it's/your movement and growth.
No matter what other people say about any of this J., or what other people do, YOU get to write your reality, your life, what it is, what it feels like, whether you enjoyed it or not because all it ever is, is nothing more than - thinking. Your thoughts rule.
Love doesn't make sense, it makes life. We get to interpret it however we want and our experience of it, will line right up with our interpretation.
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BB_snickers: It's the same person Jeff. A question ... What would love do if nothing else worked?
You mentioned yourself that, that particular event was what you needed to move on. I know it sounds contradictory but love does what it needs to do, to reach the goal, even if it means setting someone free in the most unattractive of ways. In what we call our subconscious, lies the real ruler of our lives. Another good reason for meditation.
You want to see the love in that I think. It is in disguise in appearance, but that book, that event you see, is only it's cover. Much deeper is the real story that love is/was writing for both of you.
I know, I'm zenning again.
Gratefulness is an amazing tool for healing and the best way to find it, is to see what love did for you, not what it had to do to you to affect it's/your movement and growth.
No matter what other people say about any of this J., or what other people do, YOU get to write your reality, your life, what it is, what it feels like, whether you enjoyed it or not because all it ever is, is nothing more than - thinking. Your thoughts rule.
Love doesn't make sense, it makes life. We get to interpret it however we want and our experience of it, will line right up with our interpretation.
You mentioned yourself that, that particular event was what you needed to move on. I know it sounds contradictory but love does what it needs to do, to reach the goal, even if it means setting someone free in the most unattractive of ways. In what we call our subconscious, lies the real ruler of our lives. Another good reason for meditation.
You want to see the love in that I think. It is in disguise in appearance, but that book, that event you see, is only it's cover. Much deeper is the real story that love is/was writing for both of you.
I know, I'm zenning again.
Gratefulness is an amazing tool for healing and the best way to find it, is to see what love did for you, not what it had to do to you to affect it's/your movement and growth.
No matter what other people say about any of this J., or what other people do, YOU get to write your reality, your life, what it is, what it feels like, whether you enjoyed it or not because all it ever is, is nothing more than - thinking. Your thoughts rule.
Love doesn't make sense, it makes life. We get to interpret it however we want and our experience of it, will line right up with our interpretation.
Jesus, Al, do you seriously think someone does something like that out of love? I get the subconscious purpose stuff - no doubt that was directing things - but those ain't synonymous with love. You might as well call what OJ did to Nicole love. (I'm not saying they're equivalent, just making the point that not everything people do to each other is motivated by love.)
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Ccincy: Sometimes certain things can change people.I'm not the same person I was 3 yrs ago.I've changed alot.I used to trust people now I don't.
I used to be such a giving person and I guess I just became people burnt out of people taking advantage of me.I never used to stand up for myself cause I was afraid to step on toes.Now I have no problem telling someone who ticks me off where to go.
You just get to the point where you reach your limit.
If the man I'm with now would've cheated on me with his ex wife I'd thrown him to the curb.He wouldn't be trying to crawl back into my good graces.
I used to be such a giving person and I guess I just became people burnt out of people taking advantage of me.I never used to stand up for myself cause I was afraid to step on toes.Now I have no problem telling someone who ticks me off where to go.
You just get to the point where you reach your limit.
If the man I'm with now would've cheated on me with his ex wife I'd thrown him to the curb.He wouldn't be trying to crawl back into my good graces.
Yeah, because both his knees would be broken?
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Ambrose2007: Yeah, because both his knees would be broken?
Now I wouldn't had gone quite that far.I just would've told him that if she's who he wanted then go get her and wish him well.------ This thread is Archived ------
Ambrose2007: Jesus, Al, do you seriously think someone does something like that out of love? I get the subconscious purpose stuff - no doubt that was directing things - but those ain't synonymous with love. You might as well call what OJ did to Nicole love. (I'm not saying they're equivalent, just making the point that not everything people do to each other is motivated by love.)
I'm trying to introduce too much zen/Buddha/consciousness/JesusAL into your life all at once. My mistake really. I know it's a reach for you and most people, but that's probably not going to stop me. 
But if you get the 'subconscious purpose stuff', you are at least on that same track. However that mother can't be half pregnant yanno. It can't be partly true, or only true in some situations. It's either truth or it's not under all conditions.
Where you think this life is about learning things, I think life is about experiencing it, in it's infinite ways, even the one's we label as bad. Tell a flower to teach you something. It won't. It's only humans that think they need to learn some grand ethical lesson and even doing that is simply an experience you have.
So, yes is the answer to your question. (much to your chagrin I'm sure.
) When the mind thinks something isn't love, it is the mind's way of experiencing what it thinks is not love. By labeling (a perception) as deplorable, heinous or something on the 'bad' side of duality, it gains distance from feeling love. The more weighted the label the more one thinks it has gained distance from love. It's an illusion and it works for experiencing that particularly 'bad' feeling. It's still love though, it's just wearing a different and seemingly ugly coat. Duality has some crazy tricks up it's sleeve. Ommmmmmm.
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Ambrose2007: Yeah, because both his knees would be broken?
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Listen to the words and just breathe.
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nanners2863: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAADkgJBxhY
Listen to the words and just breathe.
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/within-you-without-you-lyrics-the-beatles/49d82674a7900f4448256bc20013ef0aListen to the words and just breathe.
In case you miss the words
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The purpose of love is to experience life. There is nothing to learn, though in this particular planet, learning seems to be a byproduct. The purpose is to grow, to expand one's knowledge of self, not to become a gun shy hermit and turtle in fear, every time 'relationship' is mentioned.
The other aspect of this is your understanding of successful relationships, which doesn't mean again that people stay together, it just means that goals are reached and one or the other hasn't the talent (maybe call it ability/likes/needs/wants/desires) to contribute more to those goals. Love would let each other go, without recriminations and or using that experience as a guide for future relationships.
Separations under these conditions (in my relationships now) are not fraught with destruction and annihilation of either party and loathing of the next relationship, much less fears of who is going to control the next one, that come with the notion of 'failed' relationship. People are not broken.
This stand your taking every time, in saying that somehow my relationship success must be evident to you in order to validate the lifestyle is logical fallacy.
I would also state that the knowledge of one's personal state of dominance or submission is helpful in removing those every day power struggles. It is however not the only factor required in connecting, much less maintaining a relationship with someone. To ignore other dynamics would be just as faulty as ignoring one's nature of Dominance or submission.
I would however concede that there are people in the lifestyle, who of reasons of lack of experience, or understanding of the dynamics, and other reasons, (some people think it's an easy lay or its easy to just order someone around- irresponsible vanilla freaks trying to get laid) have relationships that end badly.
The fault isn't the lifestyle, the fault is understanding the underlying immutable nature of the universe and the order that prevails in the dynamics of opposites.
I'm not going to answer the hyperbole you presented or the 'reasons' for what soooo many other people are doing. (though I did offer some possibilities) I think for myself, and opine likewise. The whole world is trying to make connections, whether they are paying attention to things that work or not is not my business, these are just my observations.
In the end, my observation is that because 'normal' relationships don't clarify power dynamics (and other dynamics)early in the relationship it leaves a lot of bs up in the air that undermines even the simplest of decisions that are required in a relating to with another.
Further, just because one is Dominant doesn't mean there is lack of consideration for the submissive's needs/wants/desires. In fact for a dominate to ignore such things, would amount to a revocation of power. If you're not responsible, you're not a Dominant.(which isn't to say if you're irresponsible, that you're a submissive. A fine line, but a line nevertheless)
Gay people acknowledge these dynamics and much more openly
Finally a successful relationship can last 2 days, or 50 years. When you use forever as your gauge and your only criteria for success, you've reached too far into the future, with unreachable expectations, to enjoy your present, sadly. jmo
Thanks for your reply.