Sin sacrifice? (254)
AgentAjax: You know politics and religion always attracts passion.
Not mine sweet heart.
"Oh, shall I expect anything else but insult?"!
I fail to see how you were insulted by my comment. It was intended as an insult rather intended to assist you to actually look at what other posters in this thread have offered to assist your limited understanding of there views
We already read your assertions, and i certainly for one don't mind what belief you subscribe to, however in here you appear to seek the views of others which others have most graciously tended in return, that you display an unwillingness to respect the views of others, whether you agree or not is the only insults i've read in this thread
I fail to see how you were insulted by my comment. It was intended as an insult rather intended to assist you to actually look at what other posters in this thread have offered to assist your limited understanding of there views
We already read your assertions, and i certainly for one don't mind what belief you subscribe to, however in here you appear to seek the views of others which others have most graciously tended in return, that you display an unwillingness to respect the views of others, whether you agree or not is the only insults i've read in this thread
If you impute insult then you will experience the feeling of insult, please open your mind to the views of others.
I am trying to assist you in offering views having also extensively studied, in my case, a formal study in excess of three years and subsequent ongoing study, and activity as appointed function holder in administration and debate.
Our egotistic views can become extremely difficult to adjust; it is very likely the reason why lazy minded people like Bush, Blair and Howard engage in mass murder and the likes held solid what not solid. They then lied...round and round the world suffers.
So I’ll try from another angle that hopefully will assist you to understand others have long held views that lead one to develop true compassion, non-violence, peace and harmony.
Every action has a reaction; cause and effect, without cause there would be nothing. Earlier I raised our dualistic mind that subject matter is most important to comprehend before proclaiming ones self as all knowing.
I agree with what you stated about the Catholics, you’ve only got to look into why Mother Teresa was never made a so-called saint. I put it to you that was because she no longer subscribed to the notion of there being a one god.
I will contend that you would be doing much harm to the followers of the Jewish faith in reinforcing what can only be described as complete nonsense. The laws of cause and effect are certain, without creating the effect there would be nothing. Which in a Buddhist sense, describes those that have gone beyond. (GODS)
Being beings that understood the causes of our sufferings, and extinguished the activities that give cause for there rebirth. An outcome from correctly practising whatever correct people of any faith or belief followed that released them from the cycle of suffering.
In respect to your support for the Jewish faith, I say to you, the holocaust occurred because those that suffered from it had in past time, created the cause for those sufferings. And yes the mainly Catholic Germans and Italians created their own silly mindless karmas in the same subject matter. Likewise Israel since 1948 has been engaged in killing and being killed, thereby sowing the seeds of same same in future time, the cycle.
So if you are capable of putting aside your inflated ego, you may well be capable of greatly assisting your faith in bringing some commonsense to there current misguided understandings.
I am trying to assist you in offering views having also extensively studied, in my case, a formal study in excess of three years and subsequent ongoing study, and activity as appointed function holder in administration and debate.
Our egotistic views can become extremely difficult to adjust; it is very likely the reason why lazy minded people like Bush, Blair and Howard engage in mass murder and the likes held solid what not solid. They then lied...round and round the world suffers.
So I’ll try from another angle that hopefully will assist you to understand others have long held views that lead one to develop true compassion, non-violence, peace and harmony.
Every action has a reaction; cause and effect, without cause there would be nothing. Earlier I raised our dualistic mind that subject matter is most important to comprehend before proclaiming ones self as all knowing.
I agree with what you stated about the Catholics, you’ve only got to look into why Mother Teresa was never made a so-called saint. I put it to you that was because she no longer subscribed to the notion of there being a one god.
I will contend that you would be doing much harm to the followers of the Jewish faith in reinforcing what can only be described as complete nonsense. The laws of cause and effect are certain, without creating the effect there would be nothing. Which in a Buddhist sense, describes those that have gone beyond. (GODS)
Being beings that understood the causes of our sufferings, and extinguished the activities that give cause for there rebirth. An outcome from correctly practising whatever correct people of any faith or belief followed that released them from the cycle of suffering.
In respect to your support for the Jewish faith, I say to you, the holocaust occurred because those that suffered from it had in past time, created the cause for those sufferings. And yes the mainly Catholic Germans and Italians created their own silly mindless karmas in the same subject matter. Likewise Israel since 1948 has been engaged in killing and being killed, thereby sowing the seeds of same same in future time, the cycle.
So if you are capable of putting aside your inflated ego, you may well be capable of greatly assisting your faith in bringing some commonsense to there current misguided understandings.
robplum: "Oh, shall I expect anything else but insult?"!
I fail to see how you were insulted by my comment.
I fail to see how you were insulted by my comment.
Do you? These are your words:
"If you weren't so full of your self righteousness..."
"...as long as you stick with your limited perceptions derived from your closed mindedness..."
These are insults. You have no right to judge me. You are free to disagree with me just as I am free to disagree with you. Disagreement doesn't imply "self righteousness", "limited perceptions" or "closed mindedness".
It would be indeed dumb if I accepted everyone's view that I speak to.
robplum: It was intended as an insult rather intended to assist you to actually look at what other posters in this thread have offered to assist your limited understanding of there views
Thank you, so you acknowledge you intended to insult me...
Unless it is a typo.
I always consider the views of everyone. It doesn't mean I accept them. I have done plenty of my own studies to be able to judge whether someone's opinions are acceptable to me. Those views might be fine for others, I don't care.
robplum: We already read your assertions, and i certainly for one don't mind what belief you subscribe to, however in here you appear to seek the views of others which others have most graciously tended in return, that you display an unwillingness to respect the views of others, whether you agree or not is the only insults i've read in this thread
You debate/discuss on forums. If I disagree with someone it doesn't mean they are wrong. It just means I don't agree. I have a model and their views don't work in my model.
Read my posts. I debate about how to interpret the bible, not whether the bible is true or if there is a God. Many times I stated the existence of God cannot be proven by any objective way. The bible is a religious book, not a science book, I also stated this. So if you want to argue that the bible is wrong on history here and there or it is wrong about science, that is not the field of my interest. Though it records history from a religious point of view, and is often referred to by archaeologists and historians, if that is your only focus, you are missing its point.
Out of all of you it was only AgentAjax that came up with any sensible info. So I am looking into the Sumerian ideas. Whether I will share his views on it in the end, I do not know. But I will have to incorporate the findings into my own model.
AgentAjax: Everything has an expiry date and so do main stream religions. A new religion will be born worth dyeing for like so many times before, with something new, something old and something borrowed. In my opinion Sumerians were the go to culture in the same way Greeks and Roams were once upon a time. The Sumerians started a trend, Egyptians developed it, Jewish exploited it and Romans perfected it. I cannot see it any other way.
That is fine with me. That is your model, so be it. It is not my interest to convert you away from that model.
But that model doesn't work for me because we know very little about these ancient cultures and what other cultures existed. Was the Sumerian the only one at that time? I doubt. But we haven't found the others. I do not believe that there were no other cultures before or at the time of the Sumers.
What you need to answer is where Jewish monotheism came from when the whole world was polytheistic, full of human sacrifices and self mutilation, when nothing was ever enough to please the gods. And in the midst of all this the idea comes that there is only a single Creator who only requires a simple animal sacrifice or meal offering, but only if there is a repentant heart. So animal sacrifices become nothing but a graphic expression of one dying to his sinful ways. And it is only required in the presence of the Temple (or the ark before it), and you could not even sacrifice if you wilfully sinned. It was only for unintentional sin.
AgentAjax: You know politics and religion always attracts passion.
As anything that can be debated. Like global warming...
robplum: If you impute insult then you will experience the feeling of insult, please open your mind to the views of others.
Incorrect. If you put someone down, that is an insult no matter what the person feels. I stay away from those things. I may mark ideas or things like videos as nonsense (to me), but I don't make remarks about people. There is a world of difference.
robplum: I am trying to assist you in offering views having also extensively studied, in my case, a formal study in excess of three years and subsequent ongoing study, and activity as appointed function holder in administration and debate.
Obviously, we have different convictions, and that is fine with me. It looks like it is not fine for you...
robplum: Our egotistic views can become extremely difficult to adjust
For some, maybe. You cannot make that statement about me. I went from extreme atheist to trinitarian, and then threw Christian theology out the window and rebuilt my theology completely from ground up, and it is under constant review.
robplum: it is very likely the reason why lazy minded people like Bush, Blair and Howard engage in mass murder and the likes held solid what not solid. They then lied...round and round the world suffers.
So I’ll try from another angle that hopefully will assist you to understand others have long held views that lead one to develop true compassion, non-violence, peace and harmony.
So I’ll try from another angle that hopefully will assist you to understand others have long held views that lead one to develop true compassion, non-violence, peace and harmony.
Why do you think I am opposing "true compassion, non-violence, peace and harmony". It is not I who makes remark about other people here...
robplum: Every action has a reaction; cause and effect, without cause there would be nothing.
I have a science background, so I understand that much...
robplum: Earlier I raised our dualistic mind that subject matter is most important to comprehend before proclaiming ones self as all knowing.
Is there anyone here who claimed to know it all? I certainly don't...
I didn't intent to insult you, rather i fully intended to disagree with your findings in relation to dualistic mind, was indeed a typing error.
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert entered into an agreement to implement Gandhi Ahimsa with the Mullah in Lebanon and the Palestinians in the West Bank, that in the main has held pretty much to this day.
I now notice Moslem using non-violence teachings of Ahimsa to over throw governments (even be it they needed chucking out anyway) the word compassion entails understanding interdependent arising of our shared human problems arising from our ignorance, hopefully the Ahimsa teachings will not be misused.
Nothing you have said leads me to think my stating the Jewish people or any other who suffer suffering karmas suffer them without having created the cause in the first place. I don't think it is a dangerous statement to point out that point at all, if they correctly understood anything about the laws of cause and effect they would renounce causing harm to others instead of sowing the seeds of future suffering we witness daily in our news broadcasts.
I think and believe many Palestinians getting chucked out of there houses by right wing religious bigots in Israel would disagree with you.
The GODS i was referring to are beings that have gone beyond. To think you cannot permanently end suffering and treating with contempt well reasoned thoughts by people who spend there whole life studying the subject i find interesting.
I understand Moslem decapitated all the Buddhist in India and ransacked all the temples and destroyed scriptures a long long time ago.
Tibetan Buddhism was taken to Tibet by Lord Atisha who completed his Buddhist Studies in Sumatra.
Cause and Effect is certain
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert entered into an agreement to implement Gandhi Ahimsa with the Mullah in Lebanon and the Palestinians in the West Bank, that in the main has held pretty much to this day.
I now notice Moslem using non-violence teachings of Ahimsa to over throw governments (even be it they needed chucking out anyway) the word compassion entails understanding interdependent arising of our shared human problems arising from our ignorance, hopefully the Ahimsa teachings will not be misused.
Nothing you have said leads me to think my stating the Jewish people or any other who suffer suffering karmas suffer them without having created the cause in the first place. I don't think it is a dangerous statement to point out that point at all, if they correctly understood anything about the laws of cause and effect they would renounce causing harm to others instead of sowing the seeds of future suffering we witness daily in our news broadcasts.
I think and believe many Palestinians getting chucked out of there houses by right wing religious bigots in Israel would disagree with you.
The GODS i was referring to are beings that have gone beyond. To think you cannot permanently end suffering and treating with contempt well reasoned thoughts by people who spend there whole life studying the subject i find interesting.
I understand Moslem decapitated all the Buddhist in India and ransacked all the temples and destroyed scriptures a long long time ago.
Tibetan Buddhism was taken to Tibet by Lord Atisha who completed his Buddhist Studies in Sumatra.
Cause and Effect is certain
robplum: I didn't intent to insult you, rather i fully intended to disagree with your findings in relation to dualistic mind, was indeed a typing error.
I don't know what a dualistic mind is.
robplum: Prime Minister Ehud Olmert entered into an agreement to implement Gandhi Ahimsa with the Mullah in Lebanon and the Palestinians in the West Bank, that in the main has held pretty much to this day.
I now notice Moslem using non-violence teachings of Ahimsa to over throw governments (even be it they needed chucking out anyway) the word compassion entails understanding interdependent arising of our shared human problems arising from our ignorance, hopefully the Ahimsa teachings will not be misused.
Nothing you have said leads me to think my stating the Jewish people or any other who suffer suffering karmas suffer them without having created the cause in the first place. I don't think it is a dangerous statement to point out that point at all, if they correctly understood anything about the laws of cause and effect they would renounce causing harm to others instead of sowing the seeds of future suffering we witness daily in our news broadcasts.
I think and believe many Palestinians getting chucked out of there houses by right wing religious bigots in Israel would disagree with you.
The GODS i was referring to are beings that have gone beyond. To think you cannot permanently end suffering and treating with contempt well reasoned thoughts by people who spend there whole life studying the subject i find interesting.
I understand Moslem decapitated all the Buddhist in India and ransacked all the temples and destroyed scriptures a long long time ago.
Tibetan Buddhism was taken to Tibet by Lord Atisha who completed his Buddhist Studies in Sumatra.
Cause and Effect is certain
I now notice Moslem using non-violence teachings of Ahimsa to over throw governments (even be it they needed chucking out anyway) the word compassion entails understanding interdependent arising of our shared human problems arising from our ignorance, hopefully the Ahimsa teachings will not be misused.
Nothing you have said leads me to think my stating the Jewish people or any other who suffer suffering karmas suffer them without having created the cause in the first place. I don't think it is a dangerous statement to point out that point at all, if they correctly understood anything about the laws of cause and effect they would renounce causing harm to others instead of sowing the seeds of future suffering we witness daily in our news broadcasts.
I think and believe many Palestinians getting chucked out of there houses by right wing religious bigots in Israel would disagree with you.
The GODS i was referring to are beings that have gone beyond. To think you cannot permanently end suffering and treating with contempt well reasoned thoughts by people who spend there whole life studying the subject i find interesting.
I understand Moslem decapitated all the Buddhist in India and ransacked all the temples and destroyed scriptures a long long time ago.
Tibetan Buddhism was taken to Tibet by Lord Atisha who completed his Buddhist Studies in Sumatra.
Cause and Effect is certain
I don't support any form of violence. Indeed, many of my friends are of New Age, Christians, Hindu, Muslim, atheists, etc, a very few are Jewish. I measure people on their merits, not by their religion.
I sympathising with the Jews who seek world peace and reject the terrorism of their governments.
Gaza: The Killing Zone - you can watch it here:
But there is always a righteous remnant...
And here is Australia's complicity:
Hmmmmmm A dualistic mind stems from the Vedanta philosphy (Dvaita) a good anoligy Rob.
I prefer to think of it as someone who does not know if they are coming or going.
Or someone who is addicted to Dueling
Even a person that can see both sides
What about two brains in one head.... male and female that keep fighting about who gets to keep the dog.
I prefer to think of it as someone who does not know if they are coming or going.
Or someone who is addicted to Dueling
Even a person that can see both sides
What about two brains in one head.... male and female that keep fighting about who gets to keep the dog.
AMEN
revealer24: Because there are many Christians on these forums, I thought I give a little challenge.
Christians believe Jesus' death on the cross was a sin sacrifice. He died for the sin of the whole world.
However, there is a little problem with the translation of the relevant passage that says that. The correct rendering of Isaiah 53 verse is
"he was pierced through because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities"
The same applies in the Greek NT, where instead of "he died for our sins" it should be translated "he died because of our sins".
Therefore, it all comes down to the idea of corporate guilt. In ancient times when a king sinned, the whole nation suffered as a consequence - they all shared in his guilt. Yeshua was delivered up to the Romans by the Jewish religious authorities, therefore, both Jews and Greeks were guilty of his death.
On the other hand, Yeshua is referred to as the "Lamb of God". The lamb sacrifice of Exodus was a covenant sacrifice, not a sin sacrifice. The removal of the sin is the outcome of this covenant.
Maybe I stir up some emotions, because all these mean you don't need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. You don't go to heaven anyway, that is a Platonic idea. The NT idea of believing in Yeshua means you are immersed into his life of faithfulness unto death, that is, you mimic his life.
Are you ready for that?
But wont we all die regardless if we sin or not? So if Jesus died for our sins why the fark am I still getting older day by day? I don’t want to go to his paradise I want to live long enough to build my paradise here on earth…what gives dude? Christians believe Jesus' death on the cross was a sin sacrifice. He died for the sin of the whole world.
However, there is a little problem with the translation of the relevant passage that says that. The correct rendering of Isaiah 53 verse is
"he was pierced through because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities"
The same applies in the Greek NT, where instead of "he died for our sins" it should be translated "he died because of our sins".
Therefore, it all comes down to the idea of corporate guilt. In ancient times when a king sinned, the whole nation suffered as a consequence - they all shared in his guilt. Yeshua was delivered up to the Romans by the Jewish religious authorities, therefore, both Jews and Greeks were guilty of his death.
On the other hand, Yeshua is referred to as the "Lamb of God". The lamb sacrifice of Exodus was a covenant sacrifice, not a sin sacrifice. The removal of the sin is the outcome of this covenant.
Maybe I stir up some emotions, because all these mean you don't need to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. You don't go to heaven anyway, that is a Platonic idea. The NT idea of believing in Yeshua means you are immersed into his life of faithfulness unto death, that is, you mimic his life.
Are you ready for that?
AgentAjax: But wont we all die regardless if we sin or not? So if Jesus died for our sins why the fark am I still getting older day by day? I don’t want to go to his paradise I want to live long enough to build my paradise here on earth…what gives dude?
Thats where your confusion is. Heaven is heaven. Paradise is on earth. Read Isaiah and revelation in conjuction.tonyxf: Thats where your confusion is. Heaven is heaven. Paradise is on earth. Read Isaiah and revelation in conjuction.
No confusion if I were to sacrifice my life for you it would mean you get to live at least long enough to come to my funeral. Heaven is where you make it to be.
tonyxf: Thats where your confusion is. Heaven is heaven. Paradise is on earth. Read Isaiah and revelation in conjuction.
okay having read Rev's piece and looked up the 10 commandments - a lot different from my sunday school days - basically, the 2nd tablet could be used as a guideline for Cs forums...
and yes the whole thing is a bit heavy, and confusing... but one thing has always intrigued me, and I suppose reading Da Vinci Code only reinforced it - that there is the offspring of Christ, plus how much do we really know that is still hidden in the depths of the vatican -
Lookin4missright: AMEN
A men? wrong threadislandgirl62: okay having read Rev's piece and looked up the 10 commandments - a lot different from my sunday school days - basically, the 2nd tablet could be used as a guideline for Cs forums...
and yes the whole thing is a bit heavy, and confusing... but one thing has always intrigued me, and I suppose reading Da Vinci Code only reinforced it - that there is the offspring of Christ, plus how much do we really know that is still hidden in the depths of the vatican -
Da Vinci code was written for entertainment purpose and not as any base for fact and yes the whole thing is a bit heavy, and confusing... but one thing has always intrigued me, and I suppose reading Da Vinci Code only reinforced it - that there is the offspring of Christ, plus how much do we really know that is still hidden in the depths of the vatican -
AgentAjax: Da Vinci code was written for entertainment purpose and not as any base for fact
yes Mr A - but in history, she was pregnant, and the vatican does have secrets....
and even though da vinci code is great novel and movie - love angels and demons.... who said "no fire without smoke or is that vice versa?)
anyway you get my drift...
islandgirl62: yes Mr A - but in history, she was pregnant, and the vatican does have secrets....
and even though da vinci code is great novel and movie - love angels and demons.... who said "no fire without smoke or is that vice versa?)
anyway you get my drift...
drift yeah if the tide is going out…. you live on an Island and even though da vinci code is great novel and movie - love angels and demons.... who said "no fire without smoke or is that vice versa?)
anyway you get my drift...
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You must realise that you come over as very arrogant and your opinion is the only one that counts.
You seem a one trick pony to me as you cannot talk about anything else.And to some that can be a bit boring.
A.Ajax can discuss anything, he is interesting and fun
and his knowledge covers many fields,he is a good friend and I have great respect for him.
You know politics and religion always attracts passion.