Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning? ( Archived) (103)

Most arguments result from a form of division: two people disagreeing over a specific topic.

"I am a great lover of these processes of division and generalizations.... And if I find any man who is able to see unity and plurality in nature, him I follow, and walk in his step as if he were a god" (Socrates).

Division deepens insight and helps us to create order.

I have written before about classification several times on this forum. Allow me to delve deeper. My hope is that some of us can see that what we are quibbling over is simply how we define and classify the divisions we see.

Let's start with the concept of "friend". We have an extension of this term being all the set of people who are friends to a person. Number is not of importance in extension.

Then we have intention: This is basically its definition - the sum of all the characteristics. For "friend" this includes all the qualities of a friend - loyalty, trustworthiness, etc.

For those deep thinkers, the "Tree of Porphyry" shows the inverse relation between the two - as we focus in one direction (the set of friends) we move away from the definition (what makes a friend) and vise versa.

And one last bit about Division, there are two ways in which we divide: positive division and dichotomy.
In technical terms, positive division is taking the genus (large group) and dividing it into its pieces. Ex. Elements divided into hydrogen, oxygen, etc.

Science teaches us to classify/divide this way. Positive traits guarantee inclusion - even if there is a "bad" trait.

Dichotomy is division by contradictory items. Ex. Gold vs nongold; red and nonred.

In dichotomy, a "non-X" may have a series of positive traits - but they are not considered. So all nonwhite contains red, yellow, blue green etc. But it doesn't matter!

So, let's go into a sensitive topic that had been argued quite recently: Muslims.

Current teaching often attaches a moral onto a belief. As a result, many people deem themselves to be "good" if they believe it and then label those who don't believe it as "bad". (dichotomy division).
(We are sometimes too quick to place these labels on the perceived opposition.)

If I believe that vanilla is the best ice cream and that I am good, then everyone who doesn't like vanilla is "bad".

The error is forgetting that I also believe that all ice cream eaters are the best people in the world.

We have been taught that inclusion and acceptance/tolerance of all differences makes us "good" and that the opposite, exclusion and intolerance, is "bad".
But we forget that we also believe in the free speech, and women's rights, and protection of the weak and the freedom of religion...

Arguments abound. We have to look at how we are defining and classifying our terms.

We are taught to classify all religions as acceptable and this makes one "good".
If we look at the definition of "Muslim", it includes a wide range of individuals including those who are extremists and those who are not.
If we look at the extension of the group and divide using a dichotomy, we have two groups: Muslims and nonMuslims. In extension, number is not important.

I appreciate you having read thus far. In conclusion, two wonderful women on here (and others) appear to be attacking each other basically over differing positions on the spectrum of how they define the term "Muslim" and whether they are focusing on the definition versus the genus -- in other words, the pieces or the whole. If they were to talk about the same thing (dissecting and analyzing the definition versus the extension of all who are included in the group), I believe the two opposing sides would see that they actually agree with each other more than initially believed at the onset.

Peace!

It is not about winning, it's about a sickening mentality to remove a group of people from society based on a negative. Whilst ignoring a postive of those individuals.

This should never be accepted in society to me. I stand alone in my thoughts. It is what it is.

Exactly, Rachie!!

It's the dichotomy division - Good/bad, Muslim/nonMuslim, etc... -

But in focusing on the "sickening mentality", one must be careful to not succumb to what is abhorred.

Could you please define more your thoughts?
I'm inclined to think that you are not alone.

I see very few people saying anything Kay. I have tried to explain in discussions about this. To be attacked and outlandish claims made that are far from the truth and without substance. I am willing on the basis of what is not only morally, but also ethnically to stand my ground. Regardless of the majority consenus on this forum based on the media.

When I have seen anyone stand up, they're attacked to the point of silence. Simply, because they don't agree. There is no discussion or reasoning with some people. The only time a discussion appears to take place is when you are in agreement.

Thanks for asking me to explain. Often that is not the case.

Qur'an and people need educating on how to read the Qur'an.

Stop using english letters then