Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning? (73)

Jun 10, 2018 11:55 PM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Most arguments result from a form of division: two people disagreeing over a specific topic.

"I am a great lover of these processes of division and generalizations.... And if I find any man who is able to see unity and plurality in nature, him I follow, and walk in his step as if he were a god" (Socrates).

Division deepens insight and helps us to create order.

I have written before about classification several times on this forum. Allow me to delve deeper. My hope is that some of us can see that what we are quibbling over is simply how we define and classify the divisions we see.

Let's start with the concept of "friend". We have an extension of this term being all the set of people who are friends to a person. Number is not of importance in extension.

Then we have intention: This is basically its definition - the sum of all the characteristics. For "friend" this includes all the qualities of a friend - loyalty, trustworthiness, etc.

For those deep thinkers, the "Tree of Porphyry" shows the inverse relation between the two - as we focus in one direction (the set of friends) we move away from the definition (what makes a friend) and vise versa.

And one last bit about Division, there are two ways in which we divide: positive division and dichotomy.
In technical terms, positive division is taking the genus (large group) and dividing it into its pieces. Ex. Elements divided into hydrogen, oxygen, etc.

Science teaches us to classify/divide this way. Positive traits guarantee inclusion - even if there is a "bad" trait.

Dichotomy is division by contradictory items. Ex. Gold vs nongold; red and nonred.

In dichotomy, a "non-X" may have a series of positive traits - but they are not considered. So all nonwhite contains red, yellow, blue green etc. But it doesn't matter!

So, let's go into a sensitive topic that had been argued quite recently: Muslims.

Current teaching often attaches a moral onto a belief. As a result, many people deem themselves to be "good" if they believe it and then label those who don't believe it as "bad". (dichotomy division).
(We are sometimes too quick to place these labels on the perceived opposition.)

If I believe that vanilla is the best ice cream and that I am good, then everyone who doesn't like vanilla is "bad".

The error is forgetting that I also believe that all ice cream eaters are the best people in the world.

We have been taught that inclusion and acceptance/tolerance of all differences makes us "good" and that the opposite, exclusion and intolerance, is "bad".
But we forget that we also believe in the free speech, and women's rights, and protection of the weak and the freedom of religion...

Arguments abound. We have to look at how we are defining and classifying our terms.

We are taught to classify all religions as acceptable and this makes one "good".
If we look at the definition of "Muslim", it includes a wide range of individuals including those who are extremists and those who are not.
If we look at the extension of the group and divide using a dichotomy, we have two groups: Muslims and nonMuslims. In extension, number is not important.

I appreciate you having read thus far. In conclusion, two wonderful women on here (and others) appear to be attacking each other basically over differing positions on the spectrum of how they define the term "Muslim" and whether they are focusing on the definition versus the genus -- in other words, the pieces or the whole. If they were to talk about the same thing (dissecting and analyzing the definition versus the extension of all who are included in the group), I believe the two opposing sides would see that they actually agree with each other more than initially believed at the onset.

Peace! bouquet
Jun 11, 2018 12:14 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14
Rachie14Rachie14Stafford, Staffordshire UK1 Threads 3,289 Posts
It is not about winning, it's about a sickening mentality to remove a group of people from society based on a negative. Whilst ignoring a postive of those individuals.

This should never be accepted in society to me. I stand alone in my thoughts. It is what it is.
Jun 11, 2018 12:26 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14: It is not about winning, it's about a sickening mentality to remove a group of people from society based on a negative. Whilst ignoring a postive of those individuals.

This should never be accepted in society to me. I stand alone in my thoughts. It is what it is.
Exactly, Rachie!!

It's the dichotomy division - Good/bad, Muslim/nonMuslim, etc... -

But in focusing on the "sickening mentality", one must be careful to not succumb to what is abhorred.

Could you please define more your thoughts?
I'm inclined to think that you are not alone. bouquet
Jun 11, 2018 12:40 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14
Rachie14Rachie14Stafford, Staffordshire UK1 Threads 3,289 Posts
Kaylana04: Exactly, Rachie!!

It's the dichotomy division - Good/bad, Muslim/nonMuslim, etc... -

But in focusing on the "sickening mentality", one must be careful to not succumb to what is abhorred.

Could you please define more your thoughts?
I'm inclined to think that you are not alone.
I see very few people saying anything Kay. I have tried to explain in discussions about this. To be attacked and outlandish claims made that are far from the truth and without substance. I am willing on the basis of what is not only morally, but also ethnically to stand my ground. Regardless of the majority consenus on this forum based on the media.

When I have seen anyone stand up, they're attacked to the point of silence. Simply, because they don't agree. There is no discussion or reasoning with some people. The only time a discussion appears to take place is when you are in agreement.

Thanks for asking me to explain. Often that is not the case.


bouquet
Jun 11, 2018 1:10 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
It's not the muslim race that is the problem? No...it is the ideology of Islam, that is the problem...the hatred that the Conran teaches muslims to target no believers and kill them, the fake prophet, the paedophile and mass murder, who wrote the book full of lies, the barbaric punishment of death, that muslims face...if they reject the Conran.

the Conran promotes men having child brides, the oppression of muslim women, sharia law...non of this represents freedom or equality...muslims are slaves to the Conran...no other religion/ideology would murder people, who do not follow...allows a man to have 4 wives, makes women cover their faces in public, does not allow muslim women to talk to other men, unless the are relatives..allows women to be raped and publicly stoned...it's so barbaric and evil...not the muslim people, but the ideology of islam...why can't it be re-written and the evil parts removed from it...why can't muslim women be treated equally to muslim men? why can't people be allowed to be non believers?

The truth is the truth and it's time people woke up to it...it might be painful to some, who have muslim friends, but who want islam to take over the west and destroy us all?



People really do need to get educated on the Conran and learn the truth
Jun 11, 2018 1:12 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14
Rachie14Rachie14Stafford, Staffordshire UK1 Threads 3,289 Posts
Qur'an and people need educating on how to read the Qur'an.
Jun 11, 2018 1:20 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
secludedStar
secludedStarsecludedStarUtah, USA11 Threads 1,851 Posts
Stop using english letters then yawn
Jun 11, 2018 1:27 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
LeeCharming: It's not the muslim race that is the problem? No...it is the ideology of Islam, that is the problem..
If you read the Qur'an you would realise that it is not what you think, the ideology of Islam is living as a family in peace.
There are parts that may be made sense 2000 years ago but are irrelevant in the 21st century, exactly the same as the Christian Bible, these are what the extremists are using as a tool to promote their terrorism.

As for some of your other comments, again, this is Islamaphobia speaking, because a lot of your examples are nothing to do with Islam, they are cultural ideas, used in countries where Islam is also the main religion.

In simple terms, In Wales there is a tradition that many like to "play" with the sheep. Wales also has a large Methodist demographic, but does that mean all Methodists like "playing" with sheep?
Jun 11, 2018 1:31 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
LeeCharming: It's not the muslim race that is the problem? No...it is the ideology of Islam, that is the problem...the hatred that the Conran teaches muslims to target no believers and kill them, the fake prophet, the paedophile and mass murder, who wrote the book full of lies, the barbaric punishment of death, that muslims face...if they reject the Conran.

the Conran promotes ....
Lee,
Thank you for commenting. What you have written is indeed one aspect of the spectrum - the intention or definition - of the topic "Islam".

You are correct that it is the ideology that is the problem - and not the people!

I'm sure that the people who are focusing on the extension would agree with your definition - but they will hold onto their belief that all people should be accepted.

It is difficult to change a person's belief system.
If a person believes that Islam is a religion of peace, then s/he will hold tight to it. What is important is how the religion is defined.

The definition of a thief is someone who steals another person's belongings. It is the police's responsibility to catch and prosecute the offender.

The other side of the spectrum may support human rights and declare that prison is unfair and unjust.

The question is: Should the police fulfill their duty of protecting the masses from the criminal or should they stand against "unfair" punishment? (Again, "unfair" can be defined in different degrees.)
Jun 11, 2018 1:40 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
rizlared: If you read the Qur'an you would realise that it is not what you think, the ideology of Islam is living as a family in peace.
There are parts that may be made sense 2000 years ago but are irrelevant in the 21st century, exactly the same as the Christian Bible, these are what the extremists are using as a tool to promote their terrorism.

As for some of your other comments, again, this is Islamaphobia speaking, because a lot of your examples are nothing to do with Islam, they are cultural ideas, used in countries where Islam is also the main religion.

In simple terms, In Wales there is a tradition that many like to "play" with the sheep. Wales also has a large Methodist demographic, but does that mean all Methodists like "playing" with sheep?
We both had our say, but I must point out to you that the things I talked about are in the Conran and Islam is not a race it is an Ideology...an evil and oppressive ideology.
Jun 11, 2018 1:45 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Kaylana04: Lee,
Thank you for commenting. What you have written is indeed one aspect of the spectrum - the intention or definition - of the topic "Islam".

You are correct that it is the ideology that is the problem - and not the people!

I'm sure that the people who are focusing on the extension would agree with your definition - but they will hold onto their belief that all people should be accepted.

It is difficult to change a person's belief system.
If a person believes that Islam is a religion of peace, then s/he will hold tight to it. What is important is how the religion is defined.

The definition of a thief is someone who steals another person's belongings. It is the police's responsibility to catch and prosecute the offender.

The other side of the spectrum may support human rights and declare that prison is unfair and unjust.

The question is: Should the police fulfill their duty of protecting the masses from the criminal or should they stand against "unfair" punishment? (Again, "unfair" can be defined in different degrees.)
Well thank you and sorry if I upset you in my thread....

Let's hope that muslim people can see Islam for what it really is and walk away from it...they can set themselves free and live civilised lives..if they can be brave and allow themselves to learn what true freedom is all abouttip hat
Jun 11, 2018 1:46 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
ChesneyChristonline today!
ChesneyChristonline today!ChesneyChristManchester, Greater Manchester, England UK4,007 Posts
Only when somebody gets hurt. A fight happens between roughly equal powers who both thought they were going to win, and the point is to win so brutally and completely that no one disturbs the peace again.
Jun 11, 2018 1:50 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Thanks Riz for commenting.

rizlared: If you read the Qur'an you would realise that it is not what you think, the ideology of Islam is living as a family in peace.
There are parts that may be made sense 2000 years ago but are irrelevant in the 21st century, exactly the same as the Christian Bible, these are what the extremists are using as a tool to promote their terrorism.
Cherry picking details can lead to fallacies. How is one to know what part of the Koran (Qu'ran) is to be accepted? Is it not blasphemy to detract from a "Holy" text?

rizlared: As for some of your other comments, again, this is Islamaphobia speaking, because a lot of your examples are nothing to do with Islam, they are cultural ideas, used in countries where Islam is also the main religion.
This is commonly called the "Straw man fallacy". His concern and fear is justified by his definition of the ideology.

And as for the sheep analogy, assumptions are indeed dangerous errors to make.sheep
Jun 11, 2018 1:54 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
LeeCharming: Well thank you and sorry if I upset you in my thread....

Let's hope that muslim people can see Islam for what it really is and walk away from it...they can set themselves free and live civilised lives..if they can be brave and allow themselves to learn what true freedom is all about
Apology graciously accepted. handshake

Belief systems are difficult to change. Hopefully, we can all be enlightened and see more clearly.
Jun 11, 2018 1:58 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
ChesneyChrist: Only when somebody gets hurt. A fight happens between roughly equal powers who both thought they were going to win, and the point is to win so brutally and completely that no one disturbs the peace again.
Peace is where we decide to sit on the spectrum. Hurt is when someone tries to move us.

The difficulty is knowing at what point the opposition is offended... and what their retaliation might be.
Jun 11, 2018 2:13 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14
Rachie14Rachie14Stafford, Staffordshire UK1 Threads 3,289 Posts
There needs to be a button of half agree and half don't agree based on what is said. Because it is not always black & white that you agree with a whole message. So I opt for no option in that case.
Jun 11, 2018 2:18 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14
Rachie14Rachie14Stafford, Staffordshire UK1 Threads 3,289 Posts
Kaylana04: Apology graciously accepted.

Belief systems are difficult to change. Hopefully, we can all be enlightened and see more clearly.
If we went by belief systems as a whole. You could say it about many religions as a whole. But I agree with Riz. That a lot f concepts and idealisms are old. I also stand by the simple fact people do not follow the faith completely by scripture in any religion. But by what fits to them.
Jun 11, 2018 2:26 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14: If we went by belief systems as a whole. You could say it about many religions as a whole. But I agree with Riz. That a lot f concepts and idealisms are old. I also stand by the simple fact people do not follow the faith completely by scripture in any religion. But by what fits to them.
You are correct again, in my opinion. While the definition may include violence, not every single person adheres to it.

The danger lies in not knowing who does and when they will act upon it...

But being "old" doesn't disqualify a belief system. It also doesn't make it any better than something "new".
Jun 11, 2018 2:27 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Rachie14: There needs to be a button of half agree and half don't agree based on what is said. Because it is not always black & white that you agree with a whole message. So I opt for no option in that case.
Haha!! Yes, a spectrum of 1 to 10 would be nice... but it might change on how I'm feeling at that moment. laugh
Jun 11, 2018 2:30 AM CST Arguing over division - Is the Argument worth winning?
Kaylana04: Haha!! Yes, a spectrum of 1 to 10 would be nice... but it might change on how I'm feeling at that moment.
The only thing about the feature, that is a bit odd is..being able to vote for yourselfrolling on the floor laughing what would one do if they chose the thumbs down by accidentdoh grin
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