is Snowden a patriot or a Traitor (183)
lovemedofrbeautiful place, Nouvelle-Aquitaine France2 Threads 1,224 PostsHmmm .... is NSA right to spy on UE Institutions as well ????? Who are real Patriots and who are Traitors ??? 
Conrad73: Better question your G2!
Hear they are spying on you like all hell!
* G2 or the Defence Forces Directorate of Intelligence (Military Intelligence)
* Special Detective Unit (Police Intelligence)
* National Surveillance Unit (Police Surveillance Unit)You're hosed!
Hear they are spying on you like all hell!
* G2 or the Defence Forces Directorate of Intelligence (Military Intelligence)
* Special Detective Unit (Police Intelligence)
* National Surveillance Unit (Police Surveillance Unit)You're hosed!
You hear? Off who? You confidential links within the security services of Ireland?
Cause we all know you have the inside track from every security agency in the world...they have a red phone marked Conrad. That is how you know it all.
I know you have been googling away ferociously looking for a link that says the EU spies on the US. Any obscure link from any obscure site usually does you. But you can't find one so you come on banging on about G2. You really are sad Conrad. I actually feel sorry for you.
Conrad73: I can see,you are so busy working,you haven't got time to peruse the News!
Must be quite lowpaying!
Or is the Euro such a lousy Currency?
Seems you all screwed yourselves well!
Must be quite lowpaying!
Or is the Euro such a lousy Currency?
Seems you all screwed yourselves well!
So again you bang on about nothing above but you still can't back up your claim that the EU is spying on the US and the Irish government spys on its own people.
You just make random statements to try to back up your silly opinions with no basis in fact at all.
sofarsogood74: .
Let me ask... if an employee of a bank hacked the secrets of bank and then gave them to the public, because he felt the people has a right to know what was going on in the bank .... would that be considered theft? would it be a criminal act? or a whistleblower? Common sense suggests that people would be concerned for the safety of their money in those banks turning it over to the hands of criminals.
Technology has changed how the game of spying is played. When a governmental agency is like the NSA - whose mission spelled out in the name of the agency gathers information to protect America - has one individual decide that he knows what the people of world need to know, is truly misguided - especially since the NSA has many employees and Americans who work there who don't support his view....
Who the h*ll is this lone person to decide what the American people empowered this Agency of the USA to reveal?
JeanKimberley: Let me ask... if an employee of a bank hacked the secrets of bank and then gave them to the public, because he felt the people has a right to know what was going on in the bank .... would that be considered theft? would it be a criminal act? or a whistleblower? Common sense suggests that people would be concerned for the safety of their money in those banks turning it over to the hands of criminals.
Totally different. A bank does not collect information on people without those people knowing. That would be against DATA PROTECTION laws and totally illegal.
This man seen the government acting illegally and decided he had to tell the people. YOUR GOVERNMENT has no right to spy on me or any other person outside the US or the EU. They have totally over stepped the mark and I can't believe people in the US think it is OK!
JeanKimberley: Technology has changed how the game of spying is played. When a governmental agency is like the NSA - whose mission spelled out in the name of the agency gathers information to protect America - has one individual decide that he knows what the people of world need to know, is truly misguided - especially since the NSA has many employees and Americans who work there who don't support his view....
Who the h*ll is this lone person to decide what the American people empowered this Agency of the USA to reveal?
Who the h*ll is this lone person to decide what the American people empowered this Agency of the USA to reveal?
Who the hell is the US security agencies to think they have the right to spy on everyone on the planet!? That is the main cause of conflict in the world at the moment. The US thinking it can do whatever it wants to whoever it wants and all it has to do is claim it is for the good of the state. Soon you lot will have no civil liberties and what is crazy is you will probably vote for that! We in Europe on the other hand want to keep our privacy and keep the civil liberties that people died for.
The Eastern block states did the exact same as the US is doing now and used all the excuses you and your government are using to say it was OK. Funny how times change isn't it. Who would have thought Eastern Europeans would have more freedom and privacy than US citizans during the cold war.
sofarsogood74: Totally different. A bank does not collect information on people without those people knowing. That would be against DATA PROTECTION laws and totally illegal.
Who the hell is the US security agencies to think they have the right to spy on everyone on the planet!.
Who the hell is the US security agencies to think they have the right to spy on everyone on the planet!.
Who makes the laws? the governments of each country - and they are in charge of enforcing the laws of their country too.
Every country is in touch with what their neighbors are doing.... technology has changed how we see the world.
JeanKimberley: Who makes the laws? the governments of each country - and they are in charge of enforcing the laws of their country too.
Every country is in touch with what their neighbors are doing.... technology has changed how we see the world.
Every country is in touch with what their neighbors are doing.... technology has changed how we see the world.
But that does not give YOUR GOVERNMENT the right to spy on people in Europe! I dont know why you cant see that. Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it or have the right to do it.
Can I ask you a question about a bank. If your bank was using your personal information for things you did not give permission for and were accessing private information illegally do you think the bank employees should tell someone or just pretend it is not happening.?
sofarsogood74: But that does not give YOUR GOVERNMENT the right to spy on people in Europe! I dont know why you cant see that. Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it or have the right to do it.
Can I ask you a question about a bank. If your bank was using your personal information for things you did not give permission for and were accessing private information illegally do you think the bank employees should tell someone or just pretend it is not happening.?
Can I ask you a question about a bank. If your bank was using your personal information for things you did not give permission for and were accessing private information illegally do you think the bank employees should tell someone or just pretend it is not happening.?
I do believe my government has the right to decide how they are going to protect their interests in the world. "My government" is run by the people of USA - hired, or elected or by volunteer with checks and balances under a constitution and a bill of rights, with 3 branches all working to ensure that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not just words -
I am sorry you don't think that the USA has the right to "spy" on other countries to protect the security of the USA.
It is the responsibility of every government to protect and defend their citizens against both today's hostile actions and tomorrows. The US has learned what happens when they miss something. If you wish to claim there is a country that has no one who collects intelligence and claim it is your own, forgive us if we laugh. An old saying holds true. 'There are friendly governments, but there are NO friendly intelligence services.'
Let me ask... if an employee of a bank hacked the secrets of bank and then gave them to the public, because he felt the people has a right to know what was going on in the bank .... would that be considered theft? would it be a criminal act? or a whistleblower? Common sense suggests that people would be concerned for the safety of their money in those banks turning it over to the hands of criminals./quote]
Hi JeanKimberley,
Banks are private entities and its management is not elected by US voters.
I believe that since 2001, the Patriot Act signed into law by G. W. Bush, there has been an erosion of Civil Liberties and a blatant desecration of the The Fourth Amendment safeguarding against illegal searches and seizures. That law, under the pretext of safeguarding people against terrorism, it gave a "carte blanche" to investigate anyone on suspicion alone. Since then, it is utilized in a broader sweep and no one is safe in the privacy of his home. There is no expectation of privacy on the Internet, but everyone phone conversations and who knows, private postal mail?
Right now, the government is crying foul and started a campaign of disinformation about Snowden. But this is not all about Snowden, it is about the betrayal of the US government toward its people, the Constitution they swore to uphold and its allies.
With this policy in place, soon we will be under a police state like the Stasi.
Lets not forget that with all its resources, they were unable to ferret out the communications of the Boston Bombers.
If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington
Hi JeanKimberley,
Banks are private entities and its management is not elected by US voters.
I believe that since 2001, the Patriot Act signed into law by G. W. Bush, there has been an erosion of Civil Liberties and a blatant desecration of the The Fourth Amendment safeguarding against illegal searches and seizures. That law, under the pretext of safeguarding people against terrorism, it gave a "carte blanche" to investigate anyone on suspicion alone. Since then, it is utilized in a broader sweep and no one is safe in the privacy of his home. There is no expectation of privacy on the Internet, but everyone phone conversations and who knows, private postal mail?
Right now, the government is crying foul and started a campaign of disinformation about Snowden. But this is not all about Snowden, it is about the betrayal of the US government toward its people, the Constitution they swore to uphold and its allies.
With this policy in place, soon we will be under a police state like the Stasi.
Lets not forget that with all its resources, they were unable to ferret out the communications of the Boston Bombers.
If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.
George Washington
JeanKimberley: I do believe my government has the right to decide how they are going to protect their interests in the world. "My government" is run by the people of USA - hired, or elected or by volunteer with checks and balances under a constitution and a bill of rights, with 3 branches all working to ensure that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not just words -
I am sorry you don't think that the USA has the right to "spy" on other countries to protect the security of the USA.
I am sorry you don't think that the USA has the right to "spy" on other countries to protect the security of the USA.
So your government can do what they want, when they want to whatever country or whoever they want in your opinion. That is basically what you're saying.
But you see that argument falls down when the US starts poking its nose into the business of other countries. Telling the world how Russia and China should do this and that and how North Korea is this and that. When in fact the US is the most significant threat to peace in the world today. People in the US and their government presume the other 6 and a half billion people are here on this planet are second class citizans. We are all here because you let us. You can spy on, invade, kill, rendition, imprison anyone you want and laws don't matter.
You fail to realise other countries value their civil liberties, they value their freedom, they love their country. It is an arrogant attitude that disgusts me and will lead the world to war again one day. And god knows why you want a war cause I cant remember one you won on your own!
sofarsogood74: So your government can do what they want, when they want to whatever country or whoever they want in your opinion. That is basically what you're saying.
But you see that argument falls down when the US starts poking its nose into the business of other countries. Telling the world how Russia and China should do this and that and how North Korea is this and that. When in fact the US is the most significant threat to peace in the world today. People in the US and their government presume the other 6 and a half billion people are here on this planet are second class citizans. We are all here because you let us. You can spy on, invade, kill, rendition, imprison anyone you want and laws don't matter.
You fail to realise other countries value their civil liberties, they value their freedom, they love their country. It is an arrogant attitude that disgusts me and will lead the world to war again one day. And god knows why you want a war cause I cant remember one you won on your own!
yep,the friggen EU values it Civil Liberties!But you see that argument falls down when the US starts poking its nose into the business of other countries. Telling the world how Russia and China should do this and that and how North Korea is this and that. When in fact the US is the most significant threat to peace in the world today. People in the US and their government presume the other 6 and a half billion people are here on this planet are second class citizans. We are all here because you let us. You can spy on, invade, kill, rendition, imprison anyone you want and laws don't matter.
You fail to realise other countries value their civil liberties, they value their freedom, they love their country. It is an arrogant attitude that disgusts me and will lead the world to war again one day. And god knows why you want a war cause I cant remember one you won on your own!
Holy Phuuck!
They are as bad as all the others!
Conrad73: yep,the friggen EU values it Civil Liberties!
Holy Phuuck!
They are as bad as all the others!
Holy Phuuck!
They are as bad as all the others!
If you have information on the EU spying on the US or its own citizans I would love to see it. But if you're just stalking my posts with your silly emoticons and meaningless statements then you need to get a life.
Conrad73: yep,the friggen EU values it Civil Liberties!
Holy Phuuck!
They are as bad as all the others!
Holy Phuuck!
They are as bad as all the others!
I will second that Conrad. The EU is run by a bunch of self serving commies with their hands in everyone's pocket.
They have been brain washed beyond believe..............
sofarsogood74: So your government can do what they want, when they want to whatever country or whoever they want in your opinion. That is basically what you're saying.
But you see that argument falls down when the US starts poking its nose into the business of other countries. Telling the world how Russia and China should do this and that and how North Korea is this and that. When in fact the US is the most significant threat to peace in the world today. People in the US and their government presume the other 6 and a half billion people are here on this planet are second class citizans. We are all here because you let us. You can spy on, invade, kill, rendition, imprison anyone you want and laws don't matter.
You fail to realise other countries value their civil liberties, they value their freedom, they love their country. It is an arrogant attitude that disgusts me and will lead the world to war again one day. And god knows why you want a war cause I cant remember one you won on your own!
But you see that argument falls down when the US starts poking its nose into the business of other countries. Telling the world how Russia and China should do this and that and how North Korea is this and that. When in fact the US is the most significant threat to peace in the world today. People in the US and their government presume the other 6 and a half billion people are here on this planet are second class citizans. We are all here because you let us. You can spy on, invade, kill, rendition, imprison anyone you want and laws don't matter.
You fail to realise other countries value their civil liberties, they value their freedom, they love their country. It is an arrogant attitude that disgusts me and will lead the world to war again one day. And god knows why you want a war cause I cant remember one you won on your own!
sofarsogood74: Can I ask you a question about a bank. If your bank was using your personal information for things you did not give permission for and were accessing private information illegally do you think the bank employees should tell someone or just pretend it is not happening.?
In this senario, and metaphor about snowden's actions, he is one lone person in the bank trying to justify his behavior saying that the "big bad" bank is accessing private information illegally - and that he has the right to take it and expose it to the world.
If my bank was using my data unlawfully and without my knowledge - there are legal remedies - Snowden had other means to lawfully express his concerns.
He needs to return to the USA and face the consequences of his actions.
IRISHLASS74: They have been brain washed beyond believe..............
Yes. They consider themselves the land of the free. Which to anyone outside the US is the biggest joke. They cant fart without their government knowing it. Totally an Orwellian society but they think they're free.
Delatude: Banks are private entities and its management is not elected by US voters.
I believe that since 2001, the Patriot Act signed into law by G. W. Bush, there has been an erosion of Civil Liberties and a blatant desecration of the The Fourth Amendment safeguarding against illegal searches and seizures. That law, under the pretext of safeguarding people against terrorism, it gave a "carte blanche" to investigate anyone on suspicion alone. Since then, it is utilized in a broader sweep and no one is safe in the privacy of his home. There is no expectation of privacy on the Internet, but everyone phone conversations and who knows, private postal mail?
Right now, the government is crying foul and started a campaign of disinformation about Snowden. But this is not all about Snowden, it is about the betrayal of the US government toward its people, the Constitution they swore to uphold and its allies.
With this policy in place, soon we will be under a police state like the Stasi.
Lets not forget that with all its resources, they were unable to ferret out the communications of the Boston Bombers. If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.George Washington
I believe that since 2001, the Patriot Act signed into law by G. W. Bush, there has been an erosion of Civil Liberties and a blatant desecration of the The Fourth Amendment safeguarding against illegal searches and seizures. That law, under the pretext of safeguarding people against terrorism, it gave a "carte blanche" to investigate anyone on suspicion alone. Since then, it is utilized in a broader sweep and no one is safe in the privacy of his home. There is no expectation of privacy on the Internet, but everyone phone conversations and who knows, private postal mail?
Right now, the government is crying foul and started a campaign of disinformation about Snowden. But this is not all about Snowden, it is about the betrayal of the US government toward its people, the Constitution they swore to uphold and its allies.
With this policy in place, soon we will be under a police state like the Stasi.
Lets not forget that with all its resources, they were unable to ferret out the communications of the Boston Bombers. If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.George Washington
Technology and the world has changed since September 11th - and you have a point that about the erosions of freedom - it is constantly being questioned, and re-evaluated - it is a "work in progress"
The government has a right to cry foul - and snowden has betrayed the people of the USA -
Russia's Putin tells Snowden to stop US secrets leak
Russian President Vladimir Putin has told fugitive former CIA-analyst Edward Snowden to stop leaking US secrets if he wants to remain in the country.
He said Moscow had never extradited anyone before and "has no intention to do so", adding Mr Snowden was free to go if granted asylum elsewhere.
Edward Snowden, 30, is believed to be holed up in a Moscow airport hotel.
The US wants to prosecute him over the leaking of thousands of classified intelligence documents.
The leaks have led to revelations that the US is systematically seizing vast amounts of phone and web data.
At the weekend, Germany's Der Spiegel newspaper and Britain's The Guardian newspaper publicised allegations that the US has been spying on its EU allies.
'High level' talks
"Russia never hands over anybody anywhere and has no intention to do so," Mr Putin told a news conference in Moscow.
President Obama: "We have gone through regular law-enforcement channels"
"If he (Snowden) wants to remain here there is one condition - he should stop his work aimed at inflicting damage on our American partners no matter how strange this may sound coming from me."
This is the clearest indication yet, says the BBC's Steve Rosenberg in Moscow, that Mr Putin is keen to avoid damaging relations with Washington over the Snowden case.
The Russian president also stressed Mr Snowden "is not our agent and does not co-operate with us", and Russian secret services "never worked with him and are not working with him now".
Earlier, senior Russian official Nikolai Patrushev said both President Putin and his US counterpart, Barack Obama, had told the chiefs of their security services to "keep in contact and find solutions" to resolve the stand-off over Mr Snowden.
Mr Patrushev, secretary of Russia's Security Council, told Russian media that there was no simple solution to the situation.
Mr Putin was speaking at the same time President Obama confirmed to reporters that Washington had held "high level" discussions with Russia about Mr Snowden's extradition.
World is shrinking for your Boy!
JeanKimberley: Technology and the world has changed since September 11th - and you have a point that about the erosions of freedom - it is constantly being questioned, and re-evaluated - it is a "work in progress"
The government has a right to cry foul - and snowden has betrayed the people of the USA -
The government has a right to cry foul - and snowden has betrayed the people of the USA -
The world is a more violent place since Sept 11 and that is down to the US. There was terrorism in the world before Sept 11th you know. Other counties were suffering long before you lot but when it happens over there all of a sudden the world changes? That is the arrogant attitude that annoys non US citizans.
But the world did change as you lot invaded Afghanistan to get a terrorist that was in Pakistan and you invaded Iraq because of WMD's that never existed. But you changed the reasons to free the people of these countries later on. But I thought every country had its own laws and rules but you lot seem to think its ok to invade if you dont like those laws.
Too early to vote on this for me. Will take time to see what repercussions will be casued. If and how many people will lose their lives due to this has yet to be known!
sofarsogood74: The world is a more violent place since Sept 11 and that is down to the US. There was terrorism in the world before Sept 11th you know. Other counties were suffering long before you lot but when it happens over there all of a sudden the world changes? That is the arrogant attitude that annoys non US citizans.
yes you are right it is an arrogant attitude and it used to annoy the heck out of me when I was in Canada as a Canadian citizen.....
and then by the grace of the US government I took an oath to give up all other loyalties except to the United States of America.
JeanKimberley: yes you are right it is an arrogant attitude and it used to annoy the heck out of me when I was in Canada as a Canadian citizen.....
and then by the grace of the US government I took an oath to give up all other loyalties except to the United States of America.
and then by the grace of the US government I took an oath to give up all other loyalties except to the United States of America.
PS I notice when you reply to my posts you leave out the pieces you dont have an answer to.
Like the US invading Afghanistan to get a terrorist that was in Pakistan and invading Iraq for WMD's that never existed.
On the subject of oaths
They were controversial for a long time and even banned through the middle ages in some countries as it was felt by the Church that to take any oath in the name of God (as most oaths are so formed) was a form of blasphemy IF the oath entailed any duty that would be reprehensible to God
I think even now any religious person should consider an oath as two promises: To the employer or nation requiring it, but also to the deity named in it.
And no promise made as part of an employment contract can exceed the duties to an oath made to general concepts of 'good'
Consider the UK's 'Public Interest Disclosure Act' - which gives absolute protection against civil prosecution or professional censure to anyone who breaches their employer's rules to expose a crime. There you have, in the words of law, an acknowledgement that to break an oath in the interests of the public good is sometimes an honourable course of action deserving legal protection.
I believe America has similar laws although as in the UK case the fine wording excludes some professions, including all military, legal and medical workers.
The same logic is pretty disruptive if applied more broadly.
They were controversial for a long time and even banned through the middle ages in some countries as it was felt by the Church that to take any oath in the name of God (as most oaths are so formed) was a form of blasphemy IF the oath entailed any duty that would be reprehensible to God
I think even now any religious person should consider an oath as two promises: To the employer or nation requiring it, but also to the deity named in it.
And no promise made as part of an employment contract can exceed the duties to an oath made to general concepts of 'good'
Consider the UK's 'Public Interest Disclosure Act' - which gives absolute protection against civil prosecution or professional censure to anyone who breaches their employer's rules to expose a crime. There you have, in the words of law, an acknowledgement that to break an oath in the interests of the public good is sometimes an honourable course of action deserving legal protection.
I believe America has similar laws although as in the UK case the fine wording excludes some professions, including all military, legal and medical workers.
The same logic is pretty disruptive if applied more broadly.
JeanKimberley: you watch far too many science fiction television. In his personal self-righteous opinion he decided.
At a minimum he could have contacted the NSA through their procedures put in place for just these kind of grievances and complaints. Do you think he is the only one person who has ever felt a moral objection to the rules in place?
And just what do you know about the American legal system?
At a minimum he could have contacted the NSA through their procedures put in place for just these kind of grievances and complaints. Do you think he is the only one person who has ever felt a moral objection to the rules in place?
And just what do you know about the American legal system?
We all 'know' what you don't grasp the reality of.
That the USA is now an illegal dictatorship having (under Bush) suspended the rights of all citizens to the principles of 'Habeus Corpus' and made you all subject to detention with the right to trial if allegations of a certain nature are made against you ...
We also know that your Govt systematically withdraws itself from any and all international bodies where it, or its personnel might be held accountable under International law for its malfeasances.
Anything else much that we NEED to know ?
Erratum ...
That should of course have read
" WITHOUT right to trial if certain allegations are made against you ..."
That should of course have read
" WITHOUT right to trial if certain allegations are made against you ..."
HexagonKeySet: We all 'know' what you don't grasp the reality of.
That the USA is now an illegal dictatorship having (under Bush) suspended the rights of all citizens to the principles of 'Habeus Corpus' and made you all subject to detention with the right to trial if allegations of a certain nature are made against you ...
We also know that your Govt systematically withdraws itself from any and all international bodies where it, or its personnel might be held accountable under International law for its malfeasances.
Anything else much that we NEED to know ?
That the USA is now an illegal dictatorship having (under Bush) suspended the rights of all citizens to the principles of 'Habeus Corpus' and made you all subject to detention with the right to trial if allegations of a certain nature are made against you ...
We also know that your Govt systematically withdraws itself from any and all international bodies where it, or its personnel might be held accountable under International law for its malfeasances.
Anything else much that we NEED to know ?
Yeah, how's the weather in your neck of the woods? Sorry, you bought the big bad USA hype. just what "we" are you talking about?
creating an "enemy combatant" under Bush's administration might not be the finest hour of civil liberties and there is work being done now to straighten up the imbalance between our individual freedoms and our nations' security. There just too many freedom loving americans in american to ever think that the USA is a dictatorship.... and....
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