is Snowden a patriot or a Traitor (183)
suds00crown point, Indiana USA13 Threads 160 Postsall governments collect information for the greater good.is it any one person's duty to divulge that information?
suds00: all governments collect information for the greater good.is it any one person's duty to divulge that information?
wouldn't say necessarily that this Spyprogram is for the "Greater Good"!And it was onething for Snowden to let people know the extent of the Government Intrusion int their Lives!
But when he divulged the US Countermeasures to China's constant Cyberattacks,releasing Info to a potential Enemy,he crossed the Line,IMO!
suds00: all governments collect information for the greater good.is it any one person's duty to divulge that information?
Greater good?
I'm sorry, but I have to question that. I never asked my government to send new CIA recruits into other nation's to steal information from governments or businesses.
Whose greater good are you speaking of?
JeanKimberley: Not that I have to defend my actions or justify my life - just like you don't - since I haven't done anything criminal.
there is a lot to read between the lines - I am still considered by Canada as a Canadian Citizen, - I stand by my oath to the USA - it didn't say give up my respect and love for the land of my birth - and as for Scotland - my goodness what's not to love about the people, culture, history and character of Scotland and the Scottish people. It is an awesome country.
and about my marriage oath - with an ex-husband who spent time in jail and working his way through the legal system - it said in sickness and health it didn't say anything about through criminal enterprise - and of course his lack of faithfulness was an issue too.
Feeling moral outrage does not justify breaking the law - and the thread is about snowden's behavior - not about the USA's bad behavior -
there is a lot to read between the lines - I am still considered by Canada as a Canadian Citizen, - I stand by my oath to the USA - it didn't say give up my respect and love for the land of my birth - and as for Scotland - my goodness what's not to love about the people, culture, history and character of Scotland and the Scottish people. It is an awesome country.
and about my marriage oath - with an ex-husband who spent time in jail and working his way through the legal system - it said in sickness and health it didn't say anything about through criminal enterprise - and of course his lack of faithfulness was an issue too.
Feeling moral outrage does not justify breaking the law - and the thread is about snowden's behavior - not about the USA's bad behavior -
So the law trumps morality? What world do you live in?
It's very much about the US breaking laws, around the world, why do you think Snowden did what he did? Again, what world do you live in?
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Snowden is a PATRIOT!
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Snowden is a PATRIOT!
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Snow den sounds like a cave to keep warm in, this is not about living.
This man is only human and wants what he thinks is best for and or for the people.
The event is questioning the act of the man not the man
next...........
If knowing something that could help all cultures, would want the world to know?
We, you and I all want the same thing, Master/God, Father/Son and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is Mother, Goddess and the Vessel of The All Mighty!
It never hurts to give thanks to what keeps us all doing our best, even when it's not!
This man is only human and wants what he thinks is best for and or for the people.
The event is questioning the act of the man not the man
next...........
If knowing something that could help all cultures, would want the world to know?
We, you and I all want the same thing, Master/God, Father/Son and the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is Mother, Goddess and the Vessel of The All Mighty!
It never hurts to give thanks to what keeps us all doing our best, even when it's not!
It is impossible to analyze the billion of data mined everywhere, so the data crawlers of the NSA search for multiple keywords in all communications other than the snail mail. When the keywords or names are present, the data is analyzed once more to decide if it is harmless or a threat.
Innocent people can get caught in that net. It doesn't take much to turn an innocent prank into a Federal investigation and being charged with some obscure laws.
Since 2001, in the US, all State and Federal databases are linked and you would be surprised as to the wealth of information available on anyone. Without talking about the NSA, look at the Credit Bureaus tracking your every move and spending habits. Your Cell phone usage reveals your movements, your Subway card tracks you, your cell apps pinpoint your location, your Internet Search Engine register your surfing, shopping and topics of interest's preferences.
What is objectionable is when the US government does it on its own citizen when they suppose to protect you from unreasonable search and seizure in the privacy of your home.
Doing so to its allies is not any more palatable. The double dealing of the US has always been a sore point with many countries in the world. Until now, their policy has been one of denial and damage control and they got caught with their pants down by Snowden's revelations.
I would rather support a selfless Snowden than a manipulating, pompous, self serving Assange. I also will not fall for the manipulative statements of G.W. Bush about his creation of the Patriot Act of 2001.
Morality is a value absent from many politicians, so good luck Snowden.
Innocent people can get caught in that net. It doesn't take much to turn an innocent prank into a Federal investigation and being charged with some obscure laws.
Since 2001, in the US, all State and Federal databases are linked and you would be surprised as to the wealth of information available on anyone. Without talking about the NSA, look at the Credit Bureaus tracking your every move and spending habits. Your Cell phone usage reveals your movements, your Subway card tracks you, your cell apps pinpoint your location, your Internet Search Engine register your surfing, shopping and topics of interest's preferences.
What is objectionable is when the US government does it on its own citizen when they suppose to protect you from unreasonable search and seizure in the privacy of your home.
Doing so to its allies is not any more palatable. The double dealing of the US has always been a sore point with many countries in the world. Until now, their policy has been one of denial and damage control and they got caught with their pants down by Snowden's revelations.
I would rather support a selfless Snowden than a manipulating, pompous, self serving Assange. I also will not fall for the manipulative statements of G.W. Bush about his creation of the Patriot Act of 2001.
Morality is a value absent from many politicians, so good luck Snowden.
JeanKimberley: and don't forget the anthrax attacks that initiated even further precautions using the mail service. new world, new rules - always an effort protect the nation and still ensure the privacy of the individual - not an easy job to do, not always balanced.
Yes but presidents, prime ministers, senators, ministers whatever are your servants, they are paid by the people to express the will of the people, now look they are belly aching like mad because someone makes available to the people (there bosses) what they are actually doing.
Boss in any factory or work places watches his workers why shouldn't the people watch there servants....
robplum: Yes but presidents, prime ministers, senators, ministers whatever are your servants, they are paid by the people to express the will of the people, now look they are belly aching like mad because someone makes available to the people (there bosses) what they are actually doing.
Boss in any factory or work places watches his workers why shouldn't the people watch there servants....
Boss in any factory or work places watches his workers why shouldn't the people watch there servants....
A patroit for freedom ...for the real new world order --of the people... those who do not care to much for politics or traitors of the planet..
As humans we have the right to be traitors and patriots.
It's our duty and right to do what we can, for the rights of each and every being on this Earth.
It's our duty and right to do what we can, for the rights of each and every being on this Earth.
JeanKimberley: has anyone read the 2013 annual report of the subcontractor that he worked for? I just did it yesterday.
It is a sobering look at a company works to get HIV / AIDs medicine to over 20 countries - helps with injured veterans that are returning from the wars to move back into society, to monitor hurricanes and other weather disasters, to work on our health care programs..... there is only a small component that is involved in that other stuff.
I still liken him to a person who found when working in a bank didn't like the way the bank was behaving and decided to hack the information and share the information with the world....
Was the bank behaving above board? maybe not. Still he had a responsibility to report it to the proper entities.
In this case people would argue that he had no one to turn to because this US government was too big and they are the bad guys. Of course most americans would say otherwise. he had many legal routes to choose from -
It is a sobering look at a company works to get HIV / AIDs medicine to over 20 countries - helps with injured veterans that are returning from the wars to move back into society, to monitor hurricanes and other weather disasters, to work on our health care programs..... there is only a small component that is involved in that other stuff.
I still liken him to a person who found when working in a bank didn't like the way the bank was behaving and decided to hack the information and share the information with the world....
Was the bank behaving above board? maybe not. Still he had a responsibility to report it to the proper entities.
In this case people would argue that he had no one to turn to because this US government was too big and they are the bad guys. Of course most americans would say otherwise. he had many legal routes to choose from -
Do you really believe that the "legal routes" he had to choose from would have satisfied the need for people to know this stuff??? Sometimes doing the moral thing might mean doing the illegal thing.
suds00: all governments collect information for the greater good.is it any one person's duty to divulge that information?
Define "the greater good"?
JeanKimberley: and don't forget the anthrax attacks that initiated even further precautions using the mail service. new world, new rules - always an effort protect the nation and still ensure the privacy of the individual - not an easy job to do, not always balanced.
You really take the biscuit!! Americans have no privacy. Once they go to work everyday, the government fails to protect their privacy, when they go home the government invades their privacy. You might not have any more respect for "the privacy of the individual" over there but it is a core part of EU law. Your imbalance sounds like the early stages of communism. The state trumps everything!!
JeanKimberley: and don't forget the anthrax attacks that initiated even further precautions using the mail service. new world, new rules - always an effort protect the nation and still ensure the privacy of the individual - not an easy job to do, not always balanced.
I read your posts - - and I can only say - - - Wooow - - - I mean seriously - - Wooow - - - How old are you - - really
- - I mean, do you really believe all you wrote, seriously - - - Geez 
Robert Vesco said the same thing about Cuba!
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
Delatude: "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
Benjamin Franklin
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
Benjamin Franklin
"When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. When the government fears the people, there is liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
"Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty."
Thomas Jefferson
Morning, delatude.. I believe one of these days, these kind of quotes will be banned from internet and libraries !!
Bogart_1960: Morning, delatude.. I believe one of these days, these kind of quotes will be banned from internet and libraries !!
Hi Bogart,
Not so sure, I read this today. After this, it will be a little more difficult to scr*w the public with inpunity.
"Americans Believe Signers of the Declaration Would Be Disappointed
Despite their widespread national pride, Americans evince a much more negative response when asked if the signers of the Declaration of Independence would be pleased or disappointed by the way the United States has turned out. Seventy-one percent of Americans say the signers would be disappointed, while 27% say they would be pleased.
Americans have become significantly less positive in response to this question, down from a high of 54% who said the signers would be pleased in 2001."
The question i would ask is how long,and to what levels would the agencies have gone to had he not "blown the whistle".
Now he has,panic and embarrassment has sent the powers that be running around like necked chickens,and the easiest thing for them to do is brand him as being a traitor.
If his head rolls,maybe some of those in charge of security should be standing next to him.
The agencies have been caught out snooping,and now the public know what they suspected...whoops!
Now he has,panic and embarrassment has sent the powers that be running around like necked chickens,and the easiest thing for them to do is brand him as being a traitor.
If his head rolls,maybe some of those in charge of security should be standing next to him.
The agencies have been caught out snooping,and now the public know what they suspected...whoops!
rebel2: The question i would ask is how long,and to what levels would the agencies have gone to had he not "blown the whistle".Now he has,panic and embarrassment has sent the powers that be running around like necked chickens,and the easiest thing for them to do is brand him as being a traitor.If his head rolls,maybe some of those in charge of security should be standing next to him.The agencies have been caught out snooping,and now the public know what they suspected...whoops!
It is interesting to see the world's view of his "whistle-blowing" or his theft and desire to hurt the American people. and although people would like to try him in the court of public opinion - in reality he needs to be tried in a court of law - the USA government would like to try him at home - however there are 3 countries that say - if you actually get to our country we will give you asylum.
And no one has any opinion on all the countries that did not grant him asylum - their reason was "he is not in our country" we DO NOT grant asylum to ANYONE who is not in our country. The general comments are that the big bad USA bullied all these countries into not accepting him. Go figure?
Hello.The USA is a powerful country,but i cant see any other country feeling that threatened over the matter.
Of course,they want him to stand trial,and will appeal to other countries for there assistance as the other countries would the other way around.So i dont blame the USA at all.
He should be charged,the evidence heard openly and fairly and let your judicial system take its course.
By letting the public get involved,emotions,not fact take over,and the is no good in the modern world when it comes to a legal system.
Its a bit like reversing the lynch mob system.
My point is that i hope a serious enquiry is carried out regarding security,and those that failed to do there job,are bought to task.
I think G.W. Bush did more damage to the US Civil Liberties, the Constitution and to the world with his aggression on Iraq that this man will ever do. I am not talking about conspiracies, militias or revolutionary ideas, I am talking about a runaway government. The foxes are guarding the hen house or, if you prefer, the wolf is guarding the blind sheep. The Bush propagandist expression is still in use, "war on terror". He was great at selling fear to a majority of people.
Anyone really believe that during his trial the government will not invoke national security and bury him in its deepest prison. They will make an example of him.
It is the government who's trying him in public opinion, not people. They are vilifying him and even made threats against other countries. But, I would wage that they will have more people who will not stand to activities by the US government acting like the Stasi. From there to murder its own citizen to silence them, there is not far to go.
Anyone really believe that during his trial the government will not invoke national security and bury him in its deepest prison. They will make an example of him.
It is the government who's trying him in public opinion, not people. They are vilifying him and even made threats against other countries. But, I would wage that they will have more people who will not stand to activities by the US government acting like the Stasi. From there to murder its own citizen to silence them, there is not far to go.
Delatude: I think G.W. Bush did more damage to the US Civil Liberties, the Constitution and to the world with his aggression on Iraq that this man will ever do.
Anyone really believe that during his trial the government will not invoke national security and bury him in its deepest prison. They will make an example of him
Anyone really believe that during his trial the government will not invoke national security and bury him in its deepest prison. They will make an example of him
In some ways the warmonger Bush did a lot to damage Civil Liberties - of course it was at a pivotal time in US history with the bombing of the world trade center - and Bush did not act alone - he had congress go along with it. Democratic Government is a messy business with a lot of forces being exerted in all kinds of directions.
Snowden's trial would be very, very open. Let's see if Murdock would like to have exclusive rights to reporting the news on that trial - would go a long way since his newsreporters don't have a problem with hacking into and monitoring celeb's and others phones and email and....
i'm not sure he knows.his actions were not well thought- out.
Checkers101: Snowden is he a traitor or patriot.
The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
depends on which side you are
JeanKimberley: The general comments are that the big bad USA bullied all these countries into not accepting him. Go figure?
Somebody somewhere told France, Portugal and Spain to close their Airspace to the flight of a Bolivian Government Jet and force it land in Austria where it was searched.
They thought it might have him on board.MADDOG69: Somebody somewhere told France, Portugal and Spain to close their Airspace to the flight of a Bolivian Government Jet and force it land in Austria where it was searched. They thought it might have him on board.
ooopss... now the Bolivian President has gone crying the U.N.... boohoo, boohoo.
politics IS a very ugly business.....
the latest is that Putin said he'll take Snowden if he stops leaking more information that hurts the American people....
come this way comrade Snowden
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I think Snowden is a hero.
I think his concience was so offended, that he acted without any thought for his future.
He is like a big hearted fool, no chess player... he is smart, but kinda' like an idiot savant... he was smart enough to get a good job, and smart enough to tell the world that the US, was violating our rights, and to open up a violation of our 4th amendment right to scrutiny... but he wasn't smart enough to plan a get away.
I think that is proof of his acting with a pure concience to do what he believed was right.
Most people would think of how to profit, from that information.
Most people would have gotten to a safe country, before they opened they're mouth.
He reminds me of the movie, Mr. Smith goes to Washington, with Jimmy Stewart.
Overwhelmed by hypocrisy, and corruption, unable to keep his mouth shut, and profit... and unable to win against the bad guys in government, even though he wore himself out from trying.
I wish Snowden all the best, and hope he isn't too disillusioned by the world he finds himself in... I understand, people like him tend to die in Siberia, if they talk about Russian poiticians, like he's talked about ours... of course, my only source of knowledge about this, is known to lie, cheat, steal, kill, and sell cocaine to our children in public schools, to buy arms for Iranians, all in secret.... for propaganda purposes.
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I think Snowden is a hero.
I think his concience was so offended, that he acted without any thought for his future.
He is like a big hearted fool, no chess player... he is smart, but kinda' like an idiot savant... he was smart enough to get a good job, and smart enough to tell the world that the US, was violating our rights, and to open up a violation of our 4th amendment right to scrutiny... but he wasn't smart enough to plan a get away.
I think that is proof of his acting with a pure concience to do what he believed was right.
Most people would think of how to profit, from that information.
Most people would have gotten to a safe country, before they opened they're mouth.
He reminds me of the movie, Mr. Smith goes to Washington, with Jimmy Stewart.
Overwhelmed by hypocrisy, and corruption, unable to keep his mouth shut, and profit... and unable to win against the bad guys in government, even though he wore himself out from trying.
I wish Snowden all the best, and hope he isn't too disillusioned by the world he finds himself in... I understand, people like him tend to die in Siberia, if they talk about Russian poiticians, like he's talked about ours... of course, my only source of knowledge about this, is known to lie, cheat, steal, kill, and sell cocaine to our children in public schools, to buy arms for Iranians, all in secret.... for propaganda purposes.
.
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