is Snowden a patriot or a Traitor (183)
JeanKimberley: yes you are right it is an arrogant attitude and it used to annoy the heck out of me when I was in Canada as a Canadian citizen.....
and then by the grace of the US government I took an oath to give up all other loyalties except to the United States of America.
and then by the grace of the US government I took an oath to give up all other loyalties except to the United States of America.
So, when you were a Canadian citizen, which you're not now, it annoyed you....yet you're now an American citizen, and denounce your Candian citizenship, taking an "oath" to give up all other loyalties.
Yet, in a thread from earlier today, you mentioned "your fellow Canadians", in your posts.
JeanKimberley: To all my family, loved ones and fellow Canadians.... HAPPY ANNIVERSARY!!! to the most polite of countries....
Stand Guard!
Stand Guard!
A bit of a contradiction...as is your desire to move to Scotland, where if you had met someone, you would presumeably take up residence, and perhaps change your nationality, yet again, adding to the conundrum of allegiance to a particular nation.
Another things is your mention of "oaths" being important to keep, yet you're divorced, and now an American citizen. It does make me wonder hw important "oaths" are to you, or if they should only be important to other when you feel justified in crapping on someone.
Just questions, feel free to answer them, or not. Just refrain from crapping on others for doing what they feel is moral, or justified, just because it suits your flavour of the day.
Checkers101: Snowden is he a traitor or patriot.
The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
A traitor to whom?
A patriot to whom?
Just a regular guy blowing the whistle on arseholes.
Hes abit snowed in at the moment.
JeanKimberley: what a leap from taking an oath to killing babies in foreign countries.
An oath to uphold the constitution of the USA and the bill of rights doesn't cause civil wars, criminal acts or poverty in other world countries either. What do you know about the parents of all the kids killed in Iraq and Afghanistan - especially before the USA got involved.... and for that matter, before the UK and Canada and the United Nations got involved?
An oath to uphold the constitution of the USA and the bill of rights doesn't cause civil wars, criminal acts or poverty in other world countries either. What do you know about the parents of all the kids killed in Iraq and Afghanistan - especially before the USA got involved.... and for that matter, before the UK and Canada and the United Nations got involved?
Oh so you got involved to save the kids and make Iraq and Afghanistan a safer place. I thought it was because of a man you were looking for that was in Pakistan and WMD's. Can you tell me the reasons you invaded these states again?
And I know you invaded these countries, wrecked them, turned them into rubble and hundreds of thousands were killed in the process and they are no safer than before. The Taliban still control most of Afghanistan and the war lords and insurgents in Iraq. That is why you are looking for talks with the Taliban. The wars did nothing but kill people!
And the UK are part of the EU you know...You were spying on them. Probably the Canadians too!
JeanKimberley: Yeah, how's the weather in your neck of the woods? Sorry, you bought the big bad USA hype. just what "we" are you talking about?
creating an "enemy combatant" under Bush's administration might not be the finest hour of civil liberties and there is work being done now to straighten up the imbalance between our individual freedoms and our nations' security. There just too many freedom loving americans in american to ever think that the USA is a dictatorship....
and.... I think New Zealand kiwi is next on "our" radar......
creating an "enemy combatant" under Bush's administration might not be the finest hour of civil liberties and there is work being done now to straighten up the imbalance between our individual freedoms and our nations' security. There just too many freedom loving americans in american to ever think that the USA is a dictatorship....
and.... I think New Zealand kiwi is next on "our" radar......
Well the fact you could not win in Iraq and Afghanistan should put you off invading another country for a while. Do you remember GW Bush giving his MISSION ACCOMPLISHED speech in 2003? That man really was the dumbest world leader there has ever been.
sofarsogood74: Oh so you got involved to save the kids and make Iraq and Afghanistan a safer place. I thought it was because of a man you were looking for that was in Pakistan and WMD's. Can you tell me the reasons you invaded these states again?
And I know you invaded these countries, wrecked them, turned them into rubble and hundreds of thousands were killed in the process and they are no safer than before. The Taliban still control most of Afghanistan and the war lords and insurgents in Iraq. That is why you are looking for talks with the Taliban. The wars did nothing but kill people!
And the UK are part of the EU you know...You were spying on them. Probably the Canadians too!
And I know you invaded these countries, wrecked them, turned them into rubble and hundreds of thousands were killed in the process and they are no safer than before. The Taliban still control most of Afghanistan and the war lords and insurgents in Iraq. That is why you are looking for talks with the Taliban. The wars did nothing but kill people!
And the UK are part of the EU you know...You were spying on them. Probably the Canadians too!
you never built a wall
I'm reminded of a group of people who also swore oaths, oaths to obey their their superiors and, if necessary die for their country. These people were hung or shot for obeying these oaths. We told them that obedience to a superior, even under threat of death is no defence if they knew they were committing crimes against humanity. Even though such crimes did not exist at the time. Is the oath Snowden gave somehow different to the oath that the US, UK, France and Russia ignored as a defence against wrongdoing?
I don't really care whether Snowden is a traitor or a patriot, he is a whistleblower and if he'd come out of China or Russia or .... the US people would be proclaiming him as a hero and offering him sanctuary in spite of any complaints of the offended country. It is called hypocrisy and like the disease of obesity it seem to be a common failing in some places.
I don't really care whether Snowden is a traitor or a patriot, he is a whistleblower and if he'd come out of China or Russia or .... the US people would be proclaiming him as a hero and offering him sanctuary in spite of any complaints of the offended country. It is called hypocrisy and like the disease of obesity it seem to be a common failing in some places.
kidatheart: So, when you were a Canadian citizen, which you're not now, it annoyed you....yet you're now an American citizen, and denounce your Candian citizenship, taking an "oath" to give up all other loyalties. Yet, in a thread from earlier today, you mentioned "your fellow Canadians", in your posts.
A bit of a contradiction...as is your desire to move to Scotland, where if you had met someone, you would presumeably take up residence, and perhaps change your nationality, yet again, adding to the conundrum of allegiance to a particular nation.
Another things is your mention of "oaths" being important to keep, yet you're divorced, and now an American citizen. It does make me wonder hw important "oaths" are to you, or if they should only be important to other when you feel justified in crapping on someone. Just questions, feel free to answer them, or not. Just refrain from crapping on others for doing what they feel is moral, or justified, just because it suits your flavour of the day.
A bit of a contradiction...as is your desire to move to Scotland, where if you had met someone, you would presumeably take up residence, and perhaps change your nationality, yet again, adding to the conundrum of allegiance to a particular nation.
Another things is your mention of "oaths" being important to keep, yet you're divorced, and now an American citizen. It does make me wonder hw important "oaths" are to you, or if they should only be important to other when you feel justified in crapping on someone. Just questions, feel free to answer them, or not. Just refrain from crapping on others for doing what they feel is moral, or justified, just because it suits your flavour of the day.
Not that I have to defend my actions or justify my life - just like you don't - since I haven't done anything criminal.
there is a lot to read between the lines - I am still considered by Canada as a Canadian Citizen, - I stand by my oath to the USA - it didn't say give up my respect and love for the land of my birth - and as for Scotland - my goodness what's not to love about the people, culture, history and character of Scotland and the Scottish people. It is an awesome country.
and about my marriage oath - with an ex-husband who spent time in jail and working his way through the legal system - it said in sickness and health it didn't say anything about through criminal enterprise - and of course his lack of faithfulness was an issue too.
Feeling moral outrage does not justify breaking the law - and the thread is about snowden's behavior - not about the USA's bad behavior -
Checkers101: Snowden is he a traitor or patriot.
The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
----of course he is a traitor--------he is crying in his beer rite now to the soviets---trying to make deals oh well---The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
JeanKimberley: Feeling moral outrage does not justify breaking the law - and the thread is about snowden's behavior - not about the USA's bad behavior -
Really? So if someone had information about their government killing babies in experiments or putting meds in the water supply but they have signed an oath they should not say anything?
You are trying to make this a black and white issue where he breaks the law so it is wrong. But he broke the law in the US to tell the world what the US was up to. Now he is not in the US and you were telling us all yesterday how different countries have different laws. So he hasnt broken any Russian or Hong Kong laws giving out this info. So why the hell should he go back to the US?
I'm sure Putin, an ex KGB official, recognizes how dangerous a person like Snowdon is because they also have people, just like him working in their spy networks. I doubt Putin or any other high level official with an Intel component to their government (they all play the spy game) would have any warm fuzzy feelings for this turncoat. They must think this could happen to them. Snowdon may well be the modern equivalent of Philip Nolan from the classic story by Edward Everett Hale "The Man without a country" destined to live out his life in airports or on airplanes flying hither and yon til he dies of old age or by some bizarre accident.
ooby_dooby: I'm sure Putin, an ex KGB official, recognizes how dangerous a person like Snowdon is because they also have people, just like him working in their spy networks. I doubt Putin or any other high level official with an Intel component to their government (they all play the spy game) would have any warm fuzzy feelings for this turncoat. They must think this could happen to them. Snowdon may well be the modern equivalent of Philip Nolan from the classic story by Edward Everett Hale "The Man without a country" destined to live out his life in airports or on airplanes flying hither and yon til he dies of old age or by some bizarre accident.
probably gonna end up in Cuba like Vesco!ooby_dooby: I'm sure Putin, an ex KGB official, recognizes how dangerous a person like Snowdon is because they also have people, just like him working in their spy networks. I doubt Putin or any other high level official with an Intel component to their government (they all play the spy game) would have any warm fuzzy feelings for this turncoat. They must think this could happen to them. Snowdon may well be the modern equivalent of Philip Nolan from the classic story by Edward Everett Hale "The Man without a country" destined to live out his life in airports or on airplanes flying hither and yon til he dies of old age or by some bizarre accident.
If he had been Russian or Chinese the US would have been telling us all how big a hero he is and how bad those countries are to be spying on everyone.
007 james bond, the real spy
sofarsogood74: If he had been Russian or Chinese the US would have been telling us all how big a hero he is and how bad those countries are to be spying on everyone.
One country's Hero, another ono's Traitor.The same goes for the posters in this thread.
chris27292729: One country's Hero, another ono's Traitor.The same goes for the posters in this thread.
on yer bike, your'e off your trolley
Obamas plant
its said he is carrying four laptops, one for china, one for putin, mee thinks eu open the third one
its said he is carrying four laptops, one for china, one for putin, mee thinks eu open the third one
robplum: Obamas plant
its said he is carrying four laptops, one for china, one for putin, mee thinks eu open the third one
its said he is carrying four laptops, one for china, one for putin, mee thinks eu open the third one
robplum: Obamas plant
its said he is carrying four laptops, one for china, one for putin, mee thinks eu open the third one
its said he is carrying four laptops, one for china, one for putin, mee thinks eu open the third one
No way the US wanted this to get out. They are about to enter final talks with the EU to sign the biggest trade agreement in history. They certainly didn't want EU heads to know they were being spied on. Also there is no way the wanted the Germans to know they monitor billions of calls, text and e mails there every month.
why all countries are refusing asylum ?
conspiracy or fear?
conspiracy or fear?
I suppose really,they are only getting done back to them what certain agencies have been doing to others,individuals,and countries,and getting away with for many,many years.
Karma?
Karma?
Sorry he is neither, he could be a person sacrificing himself. Maybe the thoughts should be before the action. His effectiveness had he stayed within the confines of the USA would of been received in a more positive vein. The climate was right for the citizens to listen with a benevolent ear. He has defeated his own purpose. Now his message is lost for the sensationalism the news media craves. Now he may find a platform to speak but he will not have the attention of the the former benevolent ears. Giving up the USA citizenship was not in his best interest
Vijon70: Sorry he is neither, he could be a person sacrificing himself. Maybe the thoughts should be before the action. His effectiveness had he stayed within the confines of the USA would of been received in a more positive vein. The climate was right for the citizens to listen with a benevolent ear. He has defeated his own purpose. Now his message is lost for the sensationalism the news media craves. Now he may find a platform to speak but he will not have the attention of the the former benevolent ears. Giving up the USA citizenship was not in his best interest
If he stayed in the US he would be in prison now and nobody would hear what he has to say. And as far as nobody listening to him now......are you serious? The media is all over this story because the world wants to know what other antics the US is up to.
sofarsogood74: If he stayed in the US he would be in prison now and nobody would hear what he has to say. And as far as nobody listening to him now......are you serious? The media is all over this story because the world wants to know what other antics the US is up to.
has anyone read the 2013 annual report of the subcontractor that he worked for? I just did it yesterday.
It is a sobering look at a company works to get HIV / AIDs medicine to over 20 countries - helps with injured veterans that are returning from the wars to move back into society, to monitor hurricanes and other weather disasters, to work on our health care programs..... there is only a small component that is involved in that other stuff.
I still liken him to a person who found when working in a bank didn't like the way the bank was behaving and decided to hack the information and share the information with the world....
Was the bank behaving above board? maybe not. Still he had a responsibility to report it to the proper entities.
In this case people would argue that he had no one to turn to because this US government was too big and they are the bad guys. Of course most americans would say otherwise. he had many legal routes to choose from -
JeanKimberley: has anyone read the 2013 annual report of the subcontractor that he worked for? I just did it yesterday.
It is a sobering look at a company works to get HIV / AIDs medicine to over 20 countries - helps with injured veterans that are returning from the wars to move back into society, to monitor hurricanes and other weather disasters, to work on our health care programs..... there is only a small component that is involved in that other stuff.
I still liken him to a person who found when working in a bank didn't like the way the bank was behaving and decided to hack the information and share the information with the world....
Was the bank behaving above board? maybe not. Still he had a responsibility to report it to the proper entities.
In this case people would argue that he had no one to turn to because this US government was too big and they are the bad guys. Of course most americans would say otherwise. he had many legal routes to choose from -
It is a sobering look at a company works to get HIV / AIDs medicine to over 20 countries - helps with injured veterans that are returning from the wars to move back into society, to monitor hurricanes and other weather disasters, to work on our health care programs..... there is only a small component that is involved in that other stuff.
I still liken him to a person who found when working in a bank didn't like the way the bank was behaving and decided to hack the information and share the information with the world....
Was the bank behaving above board? maybe not. Still he had a responsibility to report it to the proper entities.
In this case people would argue that he had no one to turn to because this US government was too big and they are the bad guys. Of course most americans would say otherwise. he had many legal routes to choose from -
Its nothing like revealing personal info from a bank.
And you say report it ot the relevant authorities? It was those authorities that were doing the spying so ho exactly was he to report it to. As the president knew about it and thought it was OK! He told the world of illegal actions by the US. He told the world they were spying on their own citizans and allies and even spying on billions of text, phone calls and e mails in GERMANY every month.
Now when he told everyone this he was in Russia and Hong Kong so what he did was not illegal in those countries.
Do you remember telling us all different countries have different laws and as long as you follow the laws of the country you're in it's OK
Or does that only apply to the US!
I don't know if he is a traitor, but he shouldn't have done what he did.
Accordingly he must be persecuted.
Accordingly he must be persecuted.
sofarsogood74: Its nothing like revealing personal info from a bank. And you say report it ot the relevant authorities? It was those authorities that were doing the spying so ho exactly was he to report it to. As the president knew about it and thought it was OK!
He told the world of illegal actions by the US. He told the world they were spying on their own citizans and allies and even spying on billions of text, phone calls and e mails in GERMANY every month.
Now when he told everyone this he was in Russia and Hong Kong so what he did was not illegal in those countries.
Do you remember telling us all different countries have different laws and as long as you follow the laws of the country you're in it's OK hear hear. Jean take your patriotic blinkers off! The US should not be spying on people. Typical of the arrogance shown the world by your govt
Or does that only apply to the US!
He told the world of illegal actions by the US. He told the world they were spying on their own citizans and allies and even spying on billions of text, phone calls and e mails in GERMANY every month.
Now when he told everyone this he was in Russia and Hong Kong so what he did was not illegal in those countries.
Do you remember telling us all different countries have different laws and as long as you follow the laws of the country you're in it's OK hear hear. Jean take your patriotic blinkers off! The US should not be spying on people. Typical of the arrogance shown the world by your govt
Or does that only apply to the US!
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The narrative seems to have both sides and both side act like they have the support of the masses and I would like to know what you think
If Europe will get upper hand in the damned free trade agreement, alleluia to Snowden. Even better if it is scrapped. It can't be good for Europe, whatever they are promising us. Good job, Snowden!
'Ambitious free-trade talks due to begin in Washington next week now seem to be hanging in the balance as a result of the debacle after the revelations that the US was apparently trying to gain an upper hand in the talks by bugging its allies' offices....'
'We cannot accept this kind of behaviour from partners and allies," Mr Hollande, the French president, said. He insisted that the US explain its practices and end the eavesdropping immediately. And he issued a veiled threat that France would dig in its heels on negotiations on the free-trade deal.
"We can only have negotiations, transactions, in all areas, once we have obtained these guarantees for France, but that goes for the whole European Union and I would say for all partners of the United States," he said'.