The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love? (125)
BnaturAl: saying and doing .... and adjusting behaviors is one thing, adjusting core system fucntions is quite another.when someone angers you, you feel anger, yes. When some impresses you, you feel impressed. There is no changing that. Yes we can alter our perception of events in order to perceive them differently in the future with less ego response; but, not only does the immediate and intrinsic reaction remain, no matter how we respond; the fact that you couldn't change the anger you experienced is evidential to my point.
I once heard that you might not remember the persons face and you might not remember what the words were but you were sure to remember how they made you feel, which is a lasting impression........what is this core you speak of? isn't that the ingredients of all we are made of?
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irishlass45: I once heard that you might not remember the persons face and you might not remember what the words were but you were sure to remember how they made you feel, which is a lasting impression........what is this core you speak of? isn't that the ingredients of all we are made of?
I was implying core system functions such as anger, joy, love, disgust, peace etc etc ...the experience of life itself. Our reactions are at our core, ingrained, unchangeble parts of life. I am not sure any amount of will power can change that save death or absence of stimulii.
I dont think we control the experience of them, just the attendant affects.
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I don't think you have a choice as to who your going to fall in love with but you do have a choice to act on it.
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BnaturAl: I was implying core system functions such as anger, joy, love, disgust, peace etc etc ...the experience of life itself. Our reactions are at our core, ingrained, unchangeble parts of life. I am not sure any amount of will power can change that save death or absence of stimulii.I dont think we control the experience of them, just the attendant affects.
I would think the effects are what guides us, well hopefully anyway. I believe you can change how you act but I agree with you that you really can't change who you are............that would be hard
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laura225: falling in love is most definitely egocentric.
OP is talking about falling in love on will and falling in love is not a measure of love but is a measure of the collapse of previous loneliness and can be easily achieved on will (if some physical attraction is present)
But once it is over, and it will not last, normal life – normal 'love' (the one that can not be willed IMO) – can (and most probably will) come to seem too boring to tolerate.
OP is talking about falling in love on will and falling in love is not a measure of love but is a measure of the collapse of previous loneliness and can be easily achieved on will (if some physical attraction is present)
But once it is over, and it will not last, normal life – normal 'love' (the one that can not be willed IMO) – can (and most probably will) come to seem too boring to tolerate.
I agree with the attraction aspect, love is an externally reflected event. I just don't think that an applied change in will power is enough or probable in the effect of love.
I assume Jeff means love for an extended period rather a minute or so because even I could talk myself into love for that long and get out just as quick.
The OP is asking is...can you use willpower alone to fall in love or exit from love. To overcome your natural course of action in core reaction... , I'm saying if real love is present, you surely can but will power is not needed in that case, its already present because of our core senses toward love. Its already recognized and internalized as love.
While I think we can defintiely internalize anything, I dont think we can internalize false love and still recognize it as real love. Delusion might well allow it, but reality bites
The Op precludes 'attraction', it precludes any other external stimulii that would change the question and thats what some folks are doing here. Really if you were in love with someone and they peeed on the floormats of your brand new 2009 Camaro, could will power be enough to affect your still loving that person. I think it is more likely that, anger, surprise, forgiveness or understanding or a slap in the head etc. would come into play long before willpower had its say. Willpower is as much a function of what we have experienced as what we want. Past experience shapes our will, Changing what has already become will is not so easy, because it is ingrained core system functions, based on recognition of love, or anger, or smiles, whathaveyou.
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irishlass45: I would think the effects are what guides us, well hopefully anyway. I believe you can change how you act but I agree with you that you really can't change who you are............that would be hard
except that its more about who 'we' are as humans. I think we can make changes in who we are as individuals and as humans, but those changes are slow and attentive journies, almost therapy like if you will, generally speaking. To change how we recognize love as being there or not there, (without some intervention of the intended mind you)....
I dont think so. Altering that recognition with willpower, also alters the recognition. Your are now recognizing love as something else, something other than real love, maybe its willed love, love that defies every core sense of love you've ever know ..... The mind won't deal with being fooled easily (for most people :laugh)------ This thread is Archived ------
Ambrose2007: I agree that external reality, whatever that might be, is irrelevant to the issue of whether or not one can alter, through will, one's own thoughts. I think you made that admirably clear above, Linda.
Your concluding statement, however, is a different contention, and smacks of solipsism, I think. I don't see any good reason to suspect that whatever exists outside one's head is irrelevant to the contents of one's own mind. I mean, a schizophrenic might believe there are aardvarks tormenting him in his bedroom, but surely the truth of the matter is relevant - or ought to be - to how he conducts his life?
In other words, if a person holds a false view - whether it be about love or whathaveyou - it seems unlikely that the falseness of that view will be irrelevant to his life...that is, that the falseness of his or her views won't impact his life, much in the way a false view of an oncoming truck might impact it.
Happy almost Halloween, by the way!
Your concluding statement, however, is a different contention, and smacks of solipsism, I think. I don't see any good reason to suspect that whatever exists outside one's head is irrelevant to the contents of one's own mind. I mean, a schizophrenic might believe there are aardvarks tormenting him in his bedroom, but surely the truth of the matter is relevant - or ought to be - to how he conducts his life?
In other words, if a person holds a false view - whether it be about love or whathaveyou - it seems unlikely that the falseness of that view will be irrelevant to his life...that is, that the falseness of his or her views won't impact his life, much in the way a false view of an oncoming truck might impact it.
Happy almost Halloween, by the way!
I never stated that whatever exists outside one's head is irrelevant to the contents of one's own mind. I never claimed that holding a false view does not affect one's life. How many warm tequillas did you enjoy? I suggested a single shot - not the bottle
I said that whatever truth exists outside one's mind is irrelevant IN RELATION TO self altering one's mind. Example: When willing onself to fall in or out of love, that individual's definition of love is the only one relevant, regardless of how distorted the rest of the world views it to be.
Happy Hallowee, Dr. Jeff!!!!
me =
you = 
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BnaturAl: During flat earth times, 'everyone' (as a general term) operated within the same parametres of that flat earth belief .
The thrust of my arguement is just that. We know (generally as humans) there is a more universally accepted defintion of love that for most of us, when we are truthful with ourselves, we understand that definiton to be true, no matter how much we decide or choose to personally colour it. Everything outside is relevant. What use is love if there nothing to find it in?
The thrust of my arguement is just that. We know (generally as humans) there is a more universally accepted defintion of love that for most of us, when we are truthful with ourselves, we understand that definiton to be true, no matter how much we decide or choose to personally colour it. Everything outside is relevant. What use is love if there nothing to find it in?
Geez.
Of course everything outside is relevant. Of course humans have a more universally accepted defintion of love. Of course it is best to be truthful to ourselves....BUT
NOTHING OUTSIDE ONE'S HEAD IS RELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ALTERING HIS OR HER OWN MIND,
THE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION OF LOVE IS IRRELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ENGAGING IN ALTERING ONE'S OWN MIND,
WHETHER OR NOT AN INDIVIDUAL IS TRUE TO HIMSELF IS IRRELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ENGAGING IN ALTERING HIS OR HER OWN MIND.
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BnaturAl: I agree with the attraction aspect, love is an externally reflected event. I just don't think that an applied change in will power is enough or probable in the effect of love.
I assume Jeff means love for an extended period rather a minute or so because even I could talk myself into love for that long and get out just as quick.
The OP is asking is...can you use willpower alone to fall in love or exit from love. To overcome your natural course of action in core reaction... , I'm saying if real love is present, you surely can but will power is not needed in that case, its already present because of our core senses toward love. Its already recognized and internalized as love.
While I think we can defintiely internalize anything, I dont think we can internalize false love and still recognize it as real love. Delusion might well allow it, but reality bites
The Op precludes 'attraction', it precludes any other external stimulii that would change the question and thats what some folks are doing here. Really if you were in love with someone and they peeed on the floormats of your brand new 2009 Camaro, could will power be enough to affect your still loving that person. I think it is more likely that, anger, surprise, forgiveness or understanding or a slap in the head etc. would come into play long before willpower had its say. Willpower is as much a function of what we have experienced as what we want. Past experience shapes our will, Changing what has already become will is not so easy, because it is ingrained core system functions, based on recognition of love, or anger, or smiles, whathaveyou.
I assume Jeff means love for an extended period rather a minute or so because even I could talk myself into love for that long and get out just as quick.
The OP is asking is...can you use willpower alone to fall in love or exit from love. To overcome your natural course of action in core reaction... , I'm saying if real love is present, you surely can but will power is not needed in that case, its already present because of our core senses toward love. Its already recognized and internalized as love.
While I think we can defintiely internalize anything, I dont think we can internalize false love and still recognize it as real love. Delusion might well allow it, but reality bites
The Op precludes 'attraction', it precludes any other external stimulii that would change the question and thats what some folks are doing here. Really if you were in love with someone and they peeed on the floormats of your brand new 2009 Camaro, could will power be enough to affect your still loving that person. I think it is more likely that, anger, surprise, forgiveness or understanding or a slap in the head etc. would come into play long before willpower had its say. Willpower is as much a function of what we have experienced as what we want. Past experience shapes our will, Changing what has already become will is not so easy, because it is ingrained core system functions, based on recognition of love, or anger, or smiles, whathaveyou.
Applied change in will power is enough (I do think
) in the effect of FALLING in love, but not standing in love.Wasn't talking for a minute or so, but regular period (a few months or so). Regardless of either you fall in love naturally or willed yourself to fall in love, it's going to be about the same period of time before you can see if you love this person or it died out.
and no number of annoying/unattractive habits would make a difference on a length of that period (in respect either it's natural or willed falling in love). Those will shorten both.
Really, you fall in love, they keep peeing on the floormats of your brand new 2009 Camaro and yes your natural reaction would come into play long before willpower had its say... and this reaction is going to be THE SAME either you fall in love naturally or by will power.
Not easily angered, not self-seeking love, the real love, what comes or doesn't come after that 'fallen-in-love' period can not be achieved by sheer will power.
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I'd like to see someone do this in practice..
My point is that even if you think you can (and you can surely think you can) will love, if you cannot stay in love despite all the external interventions of the other person affecting you, (even things that annoy you or cause conflict) then you have not really willed love; but some abhoration of mimickery. Delusionary pitfalls.
My point is that even if you think you can (and you can surely think you can) will love, if you cannot stay in love despite all the external interventions of the other person affecting you, (even things that annoy you or cause conflict) then you have not really willed love; but some abhoration of mimickery. Delusionary pitfalls.
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lktolbert: Geez.Of course everything outside is relevant. Of course humans have a more universally accepted defintion of love. Of course it is best to be truthful to ourselves....BUT
NOTHING OUTSIDE ONE'S HEAD IS RELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ALTERING HIS OR HER OWN MIND,
THE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION OF LOVE IS IRRELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ENGAGING IN ALTERING ONE'S OWN MIND,
WHETHER OR NOT AN INDIVIDUAL IS TRUE TO HIMSELF IS IRRELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ENGAGING IN ALTERING HIS OR HER OWN MIND.
NOTHING OUTSIDE ONE'S HEAD IS RELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ALTERING HIS OR HER OWN MIND,
THE UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED DEFINITION OF LOVE IS IRRELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ENGAGING IN ALTERING ONE'S OWN MIND,
WHETHER OR NOT AN INDIVIDUAL IS TRUE TO HIMSELF IS IRRELEVANT WHEN ONE IS ENGAGING IN ALTERING HIS OR HER OWN MIND.
do you imagine me a deaf person?
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BnaturAl: I'd like to see someone do this in practice..
My point is that even if you think you can (and you can surely think you can) will love, if you cannot stay in love despite all the external interventions of the other person affecting you, (even things that annoy you or cause conflict) then you have not really willed love; but some abhoration of mimickery. Delusionary pitfalls.
My point is that even if you think you can (and you can surely think you can) will love, if you cannot stay in love despite all the external interventions of the other person affecting you, (even things that annoy you or cause conflict) then you have not really willed love; but some abhoration of mimickery. Delusionary pitfalls.
99.9% of falling in love (naturally or willed) is a delusionary pitfalls. No difference
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BnaturAl: except that its more about who 'we' are as humans. I think we can make changes in who we are as individuals and as humans, but those changes are slow and attentive journies, almost therapy like if you will, generally speaking.
To change how we recognize love as being there or not there, (without some intervention of the intended mind you).... I dont think so. Altering that recognition with willpower, also alters the recognition. Your are now recognizing love as something else, something other than real love, maybe its willed love, love that defies every core sense of love you've ever know ..... The mind won't deal with being fooled easily (for most people :laugh)
To change how we recognize love as being there or not there, (without some intervention of the intended mind you).... I dont think so. Altering that recognition with willpower, also alters the recognition. Your are now recognizing love as something else, something other than real love, maybe its willed love, love that defies every core sense of love you've ever know ..... The mind won't deal with being fooled easily (for most people :laugh)
But what if you throw in there in that equasion that we really don't know what love is? say if somebody ask you "what is love?" would you be able to describe it without being objective of yourself giving the unbiased opinion that the asker is asking? I don't think it can be done. Scholars have tried and tried for years to put "Love" in a true answer but all they and we can come up with are theories of it, what it might be, so when/if we speak of love so general it really isn't, I think it is a personal opinion, like in the eye of the beholder kind of thing.
We humans have cores but they are different,,,,and then again not so very much different. We tend to think of things inside our little world/box, would be kind of hard to change the core when we never leave the box/our world,,,,egadds that didn't make sense, coffee! another coffee please!
I agree with you A, in a different but not so different way
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Yes, definitely.
Proof: Some days I hate being on CS. Then I, through will and determination, I love it again. So there we have it.
Hard evidence.
Proof: Some days I hate being on CS. Then I, through will and determination, I love it again. So there we have it.
Hard evidence.
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venere08: Yes, definitely.
Proof: Some days I hate being on CS. Then I, through will and determination, I love it again. So there we have it.
Hard evidence.
Proof: Some days I hate being on CS. Then I, through will and determination, I love it again. So there we have it.
Hard evidence.
Hi Venera
sometimes, if you want to feel again - will and determination (no less) is a way to go
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laura225: Hi Venera
sometimes, if you want to feel again - will and determination (no less) is a way to go
sometimes, if you want to feel again - will and determination (no less) is a way to go
Hi laura
Couldn't agree more!
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laura225: 99.9% of falling in love (naturally or willed) is a delusionary pitfalls. No difference
I think naturally falling in love may, I repeat may have some pitfalls, not nearly as many as willing oneself to fall in love.
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irishlass45: But what if you throw in there in that equasion that we really don't know what love is? say if somebody ask you "what is love?" would you be able to describe it without being objective of yourself giving the unbiased opinion that the asker is asking? I don't think it can be done. Scholars have tried and tried for years to put "Love" in a true answer but all they and we can come up with are theories of it, what it might be, so when/if we speak of love so general it really isn't, I think it is a personal opinion, like in the eye of the beholder kind of thing.
We humans have cores but they are different,,,,and then again not so very much different. We tend to think of things inside our little world/box, would be kind of hard to change the core when we never leave the box/our world,,,,egadds that didn't make sense, coffee! another coffee please! I agree with you A, in a different but not so different way
We humans have cores but they are different,,,,and then again not so very much different. We tend to think of things inside our little world/box, would be kind of hard to change the core when we never leave the box/our world,,,,egadds that didn't make sense, coffee! another coffee please! I agree with you A, in a different but not so different way
We're not so differrent in the philisophical sense
We know when we're angry, we know when we're happy, and we know when we fall in ove, I don't think a dictionary is required to describe it. We know it and however persoanlly coloured, it is generally universal. So much so that we can recognize in other when THEY have fallin in anger and love etc.
What is personal is the "reasons" for us falling in anger, falling in love, falling in anything. The thing that angers me may not anger you and the things that anger you may not anger me, but "anger" is the constant that we recognize.
Again I accept the "possibility" but I wouldn't give an inch on "probability". The brain knows mimickery, it will recognize it as such and disillusion you in no time flat.
I think you can willfully change the criteria one sets for atractions, not easily either, but you cannot change the falling in love part, because any change to the natural affect of falling in love will show up as a mimicked love and your core mental functions will keep reminding you its not love at all that you'd be falling in, its you trying to fool yourself and deny any natural influences and still trying to mimick falling in love
.
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Sense Of Life
A Sense of Life is an emotional evaluation of the world. It is subconsciously formed through a process of emotional integration. It integrates one's emotions and value-judgments. Since it is an automatic process, it begins with one's first emotional judgments about the world long before the capacity to rationally judge the world has been achieved. It is because of this that one's Sense of Life can differ radically from one's explicit metaphysical view. Although the two relate, and affect one another, there is no causal connection.
A Sense of Life differs from simple emotions. It is not an emotional evaluation of one's metaphysical views, whether implicit or explicit. A Sense of Life is not programmed by a single evaluation. It is an integration of countless evaluations. Over the course of one's life, it integrates emotions and value-judgments related to all aspects of living. A Sense of Life is the sum of these emotions and value-judgments. This is the method by which it acts as an emotional evaluation of the world. Not directly through a concept of the world and an appropriate judgment, but a complex summation of judgments about every aspect of the world one has made.
Copyright © 2001 by Jeff Landauer and Joseph Rowlands
Has a lot to do with the way one chooses.
A Sense of Life is an emotional evaluation of the world. It is subconsciously formed through a process of emotional integration. It integrates one's emotions and value-judgments. Since it is an automatic process, it begins with one's first emotional judgments about the world long before the capacity to rationally judge the world has been achieved. It is because of this that one's Sense of Life can differ radically from one's explicit metaphysical view. Although the two relate, and affect one another, there is no causal connection.
A Sense of Life differs from simple emotions. It is not an emotional evaluation of one's metaphysical views, whether implicit or explicit. A Sense of Life is not programmed by a single evaluation. It is an integration of countless evaluations. Over the course of one's life, it integrates emotions and value-judgments related to all aspects of living. A Sense of Life is the sum of these emotions and value-judgments. This is the method by which it acts as an emotional evaluation of the world. Not directly through a concept of the world and an appropriate judgment, but a complex summation of judgments about every aspect of the world one has made.
Copyright © 2001 by Jeff Landauer and Joseph Rowlands
Has a lot to do with the way one chooses.
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But there is changing 'that' Al, its up to us how we allow others to affect our state of mind - I agree theres no way we can change the 'anger we experienced' but there sure is a way to change the way we let it continue to affect is.........
See you tomorrow Al - Im outa here....... I am looking after a youngster who will likely be up much sooner than I will be ready for.........