The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love? ( Archived) (125)

good point - that's why I couldn't comment on willing oneself to fall out of love.

Never tried, never wanted to - the feeling is too great to go into all this trouble to free oneself from it.

- oh, sorry - wrong emoticon

I hope you had a happy one, too, Linda. We didn't get a lot of tricky treaters, so unfortunately we're stuck with a truckload of delicious candy bars. But sometimes life is like that.

Okay, it seems that we're talking past each other a bit. I'm not sure that's because you're not getting my basic point or I'm not getting yours.

I think I understand what you're saying - that what's relevant for mind-control is how the person experiences what's going on in his own mind. That is, if someone wills something to happen in their own mind and it happens (from their point of view), then it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or what other external truths are - the essential control of will is what's exercised by the individual. Is this what you're saying?

My point is that the only way to determine if this self-willing has actually achieved success is through an objective reference of some kind. For example, let's say I believe I've willed myself to fall out of love. You - I think - are saying that's the only relevant thing: my *belief* that I've successfully willed myself to fall out of love...my experience that this has happened. I would say that this does not account for self-delusion - that is, that it's quite possible that the person in question has *not in fact* succeeded in willing him or herself out of love, but simply believes that he or she has. This person, in other words, has failed to achieve what he or she believes was achieved.

An example in real life was my ex-wife. For years she swore she didn't love me. She often claimed that she'd made herself stop loving me through sheer will (over a period of years). Her experience was that she had succeeded in that endeavor. However, she was wrong. She had in fact failed to stop loving me - rather she had *suppressed* her feelings of love. That was what she had succeeded at. This all came out after we were separated for a couple of years.

When you say the "individual's definition of love is the only one relevant," I am unable to see an interpretation of that which doesn't deny objective reality - that doesn't amount to saying that the individual's view of love is necessarily correct for him or her. But this cannot be true, since it doesn't allow, again, for mistaken and/or delusional views. There is no reason to think that people cannot hold mistaken or delusional views of love just as they can hold such views for everything else. If a person has a wrong view of love - or simply isn't capable of love (another possibility) - then it's his or her views which are distorted and misleading.

In other words, when I raised the question of whether or not one can will oneself in or out of love, I was speaking of the *actual* achievement of this, not the belief (delusional/incorrect) that one has achieved that. It's like I asked: Can a guy five foot tall dunk? I wouldn't be asking if he believed he could dunk - I would be asking if he actually could dunk.

and mute from all appearances


on the bright side I have a nice head of hair that you could will yourself to adore

Good point, Al the more repetitions of what you think may and/or may not happen - the stronger and more valid the argument becomes.


Another very questionable point. You might think that all the external interventions have stronger effect on 'willed falling-in-love' vs 'conventional falling-in-love', but the fact is: there is nothing to support this opinion.

You also might want to review CS archives if you want to see how fast delusions of 'conventional falling-in-love' shatter... (in case you didn't see enough of it in RL)

Whenever we fall in love (no matter how it happens, which way), we inevitably fall for a delusion - what we want the other to be ... and if it is left at this and doesn't grow into something meaningful, it will disintegrate... the euphoria of 'fallen-in-love' phase won't last.

ya, well, it took Tarzan a long time to get over monkey love before he accepted Jane as an alternative

you think so?

now that you mentioned Tarzan he actually altered his reality amazingly fast

maybe ... not until the 3rd sequel though was there any real passionate commiseration for her being.


I don't know about you, but it's difficult to let go of my monkey.

Hi Ambrose, hi Bnatural, hi everyone!
I'll resume in one sentence what I think:

DON'T THINK OF AN APPLE.

Now, did ya? So there.

Repeat it a lot and it has the opposite annoying affect. Don't think about getting naked with me.


did you? so here...

You!!!!!


Er... er... er... er...

Marry me????