The Limits of Free Will: Can one will oneself in and out of love? (125)
mbcasey: "Also, we can decide to make ourselves more accommodating to the possibility of love by, for instance, addressing personal issues "
That statement above is certainly true. Also, I agree with you that falling out of love is lke the grieving process.
I would think by now, with a billion self-help books, and infomercial gurus someone would have started the business of "How to Fall Out Of Love In 2 Weeks Time".
My brain has spent 30 years being probed and prodded by psychiatrists, psycologists, psychopharmacologists, family therapists using all kinds of techniques, drugs and natural remedies. Unfortunately, they still do not understand how it all works...
That statement above is certainly true. Also, I agree with you that falling out of love is lke the grieving process.
I would think by now, with a billion self-help books, and infomercial gurus someone would have started the business of "How to Fall Out Of Love In 2 Weeks Time".
My brain has spent 30 years being probed and prodded by psychiatrists, psycologists, psychopharmacologists, family therapists using all kinds of techniques, drugs and natural remedies. Unfortunately, they still do not understand how it all works...
Well, I think the highlighted quote is an excellent point, Ken. But you know, I'm guessing that such a book might actually exist...and I do know of one guru - Richard Bandler, co-founder of Neural Linguistic Programming - who in fact offers such a remedy...though I think he claims we can do it even faster than 2 weeks.
It's uncontestable that we don't know very much about how the mind works, so I think certain pronouncements on that subject are pretty dubious. That's why I wouldn't absolutely rule out the possibility of artificially eliminating or augmenting love. In fact, one movie - "Spotless Mind" starring Jim Carrey - addressed that question (it was about a guy who trying to eliminate a past love from his mind, with problematic results).
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venere08: Does your friend simply hold these beliefs but that they have not been actualised?
Or he has succeeded in achieving all the above? I am curious, because from my knowledge about people's behaviour, a person will not do some unless they actually want to, at a subconscious level.
And if they want to perform a particular action anyway, there is nothing too mysterious about that then, is there?
Or he has succeeded in achieving all the above? I am curious, because from my knowledge about people's behaviour, a person will not do some unless they actually want to, at a subconscious level.
And if they want to perform a particular action anyway, there is nothing too mysterious about that then, is there?
As I mentioned in the original post, he believes he has actually accomplished this - that is, he believes he has successfully willed himself to stop loving his ex-girlfriend. He assured me that I, too, could do that if I so desired.
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Ambrose2007: Well, Shel, I guess I have to try argue my friend's position since certain other capable people probably will choose not to
I think my friend would say that while it's true that most people don't chose to eliminate their feelings of love after a breakup, that's largely because 1) some part of them actually gets something - some form of emotional satisfaction - out of clinging to those past emotions; 2) that most people don't believe they have the power to make such a choice; and 3) even suspecting they might have such a power, they have no knowledge of how to implement it.
I think my friend would say that while it's true that most people don't chose to eliminate their feelings of love after a breakup, that's largely because 1) some part of them actually gets something - some form of emotional satisfaction - out of clinging to those past emotions; 2) that most people don't believe they have the power to make such a choice; and 3) even suspecting they might have such a power, they have no knowledge of how to implement it.
Well I would think that people would rather choose to stop loving vs. going through pain...I don't think pain is an emotional payoff if you're the only one suffering...there has to be some gain made for a pay off...and that choice should be as simple as choosing not to do anything else which requires nothing more than a decision and requires no knowledge at all.....So your friend is full of BS...go out and pick a woman for him and tell him to choose to fall in love and then out of love with her and see how he makes out!!!!
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If the subject matter is truely about love alone ... here is one question that will perhaps stymie your friend.
I love my son. If I applied his assertions in this case; could I end up in a situation where I did not love my son? Nope. Love is love right? If your buddy is being picky about it being a different kind of love, then the love that he suggests can be willfully undermined, was not love in the first place. It was a love with conditions and that's not love, that's some personal contract with your subconscious desires that someone happened to fit into. If it's real love, its too innate to change or undo it.
Undoing a 'conditional love' like that would be and is relatively easy. Simpy find or apply deal breakers and you're out.
I love my son. If I applied his assertions in this case; could I end up in a situation where I did not love my son? Nope. Love is love right? If your buddy is being picky about it being a different kind of love, then the love that he suggests can be willfully undermined, was not love in the first place. It was a love with conditions and that's not love, that's some personal contract with your subconscious desires that someone happened to fit into. If it's real love, its too innate to change or undo it.
Undoing a 'conditional love' like that would be and is relatively easy. Simpy find or apply deal breakers and you're out.
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lktolbert: I would much rather discuss what each of us is going to wear for Halloween, but okay...okay....Your friend is correct because the human mind has that potential. My question is....Why would one want to work THAT hard? There are enough potential love prospects available to negate the need for such tedius mental effort. I would rather spend that energy finding a fabulous Halloween costume.
Hmmm...I'd say the claim about the human mind having that potential is rather contestable, to put it mildly. There surely are limits on what we can do. For instance, maybe I could be a serial killer if I truly wanted to, but is it possible that I could ever truly want to? I'd say almost certainly that my having such a desire is impossible. You'd have to desire something strongly, in other words, to go through the mind-numbing tedium that you describe, Linda, and it's far from clear that it is even possible for you to have that strong desire.
Good luck with your fabulous costume. I'm going to take a wild guess...you're going to be Hypatia, famous Greek lady philosopher??
GG is busy assembling a costume for both of us as we speak. She's going to be a hippie. I'm going to be a cheap hippie simulacrum, as I understand it.
Should be a fun night tomorrow, no?
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Hugz_n_Kissez: No kidding...if there were such thing as a choice it would be quite easy and not so complex....
Oh, I wouldn't say that choices can't be difficult and complex, Hugsy, so I don't think one can deduce the absence of choice from the presence of such difficulty/complexity, no?
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Ambrose2007: Hmmm...I'd say the claim about the human mind having that potential is rather contestable, to put it mildly. There surely are limits on what we can do. For instance, maybe I could be a serial killer if I truly wanted to, but is it possible that I could ever truly want to? I'd say almost certainly that my having such a desire is impossible. You'd have to desire something strongly, in other words, to go through the mind-numbing tedium that you describe, Linda, and it's far from clear that it is even possible for you to have that strong desire.
Good luck with your fabulous costume. I'm going to take a wild guess...you're going to be Hypatia, famous Greek lady philosopher??
GG is busy assembling a costume for both of us as we speak. She's going to be a hippie. I'm going to be a cheap hippie simulacrum, as I understand it.
Should be a fun night tomorrow, no?
Good luck with your fabulous costume. I'm going to take a wild guess...you're going to be Hypatia, famous Greek lady philosopher??
GG is busy assembling a costume for both of us as we speak. She's going to be a hippie. I'm going to be a cheap hippie simulacrum, as I understand it.
Should be a fun night tomorrow, no?
the claim about the human mind having that potential is rather contestable
It is not a claim. It is a fact.
maybe I could be a serial killer if I truly wanted to, but is it possible that I could ever truly want to?
Your desire or lack of desire to be a serial killer is irrelevant. The question regarded whether willing oneself is possible. IT (mind alteration) may not be desirable, but IT is possible.
You'd have to desire something strongly, in other words, to go through the mind-numbing tedium that you describe , Linda, and it's far from clear that it is even possible for you to have that strong desire.
Yes, one would definitely have to desire something strongly to sustain the mental effort necessary to alter one's mind in such a manner. Apparently it IS possible to have that strong a desire, given the processes your friend and other posters to your thread indicated they pursued in their efforts toward mind altering.
The bottom line is that while not everyone will be able to accomplish IT, not everyone will desire IT enough to make the effort to accomplish IT, and certainly many things are never desirable for IT (i.e., serial killer), but IT is possible.
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BnaturAl: Well ,I think we're closer than your friend just as matter of degrees and defintion. In another thread I was speaking about removing the characteristics of a subject,that that profoundly changes that thing to become something else. It is no longer the orginal subject when we do that. When we start dissecting love or applying 'kinds' and 'sub-kinds' , we have changed the very essence of that love, the subject in this case.
Tangeantial discrepencies never solve the orignal subject when an effective result is required to understand it. Love is generally a difficult subject when it's definition is not clearly defined and accepted as such. Add it's affects as a noun, or a verb, adverb- and confusion is imminent.
Logically, we can effectively stop pinning for someone, stop wanting them as a matter of desire, but I don't see how how we can stop love if it was there. I also don't think we can create love in the first place, it is somehow just a matter of course that we have no control over.
Tangeantial discrepencies never solve the orignal subject when an effective result is required to understand it. Love is generally a difficult subject when it's definition is not clearly defined and accepted as such. Add it's affects as a noun, or a verb, adverb- and confusion is imminent.
Logically, we can effectively stop pinning for someone, stop wanting them as a matter of desire, but I don't see how how we can stop love if it was there. I also don't think we can create love in the first place, it is somehow just a matter of course that we have no control over.
This is what I was talking about on the first page... but you all just ignored meeeeeeee
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jbibiza: This is what I was talking about on the first page... but you all just ignored meeeeeeee
that happens to smart people all the time
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BnaturAl: that happens to smart people all the time
I remember a thread a while back about cheating. I had admitted that a boyfriend had cheated on me, but that we had discussed it, I had forgiven him and we moved on with our relationship. I took a lot of flack for that... most couldn´t understand how I could stay with him after that.
The answer was simple.... I loved him.
What the discussion did was assure me that it had been a stupid, in the heat of the moment act, which wound up hurting both of us... but it didn´t change our love.
Had the outcome of the discussion been different... had we discovered that I didn´t fulfill his needs, that he didn´t return the love I felt for him... That would have ended the relationship, not out of anger but out of the realization that he could not be happy with me.
In loving someone you want their happiness and if it can´t be with you, then you should allow it to be with another without it turning to bitterness and anger.
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BnaturAl wrote:
Well ,I think we're closer than your friend just as matter of degrees and defintion. In another thread I was speaking about removing the characteristics of a subject,that that profoundly changes that thing to become something else. It is no longer the orginal subject when we do that. When we start dissecting love or applying 'kinds' and 'sub-kinds' , we have changed the very essence of that love, the subject in this case.
Tangeantial discrepencies never solve the orignal subject when an effective result is required to understand it. Love is generally a difficult subject when it's definition is not clearly defined and accepted as such. Add it's affects as a noun, or a verb, adverb- and confusion is imminent.
Logically, we can effectively stop pinning for someone, stop wanting them as a matter of desire, but I don't see how how we can stop love if it was there. I also don't think we can create love in the first place, it is somehow just a matter of course that we have no control over.
Whether or not love was actually "there" is irrelevant. All that matters is that the individual doing the self mind altering BELIEVED it was there. Love is subjective. Although many aspects of "love" are agreed upon by the masses, each individual applies his or her own details to the definition, such as criteria, characteristerics, conditions, manifestations, etc. Whether or not one's definition of love meets another's does not matter, as any attempted alteration to one's mind is going to be based on what love is and means to that individual alone.
Well ,I think we're closer than your friend just as matter of degrees and defintion. In another thread I was speaking about removing the characteristics of a subject,that that profoundly changes that thing to become something else. It is no longer the orginal subject when we do that. When we start dissecting love or applying 'kinds' and 'sub-kinds' , we have changed the very essence of that love, the subject in this case.
Tangeantial discrepencies never solve the orignal subject when an effective result is required to understand it. Love is generally a difficult subject when it's definition is not clearly defined and accepted as such. Add it's affects as a noun, or a verb, adverb- and confusion is imminent.
Logically, we can effectively stop pinning for someone, stop wanting them as a matter of desire, but I don't see how how we can stop love if it was there. I also don't think we can create love in the first place, it is somehow just a matter of course that we have no control over.
jbibiza: This is what I was talking about on the first page... but you all just ignored meeeeeeee
Whether or not love was actually "there" is irrelevant. All that matters is that the individual doing the self mind altering BELIEVED it was there. Love is subjective. Although many aspects of "love" are agreed upon by the masses, each individual applies his or her own details to the definition, such as criteria, characteristerics, conditions, manifestations, etc. Whether or not one's definition of love meets another's does not matter, as any attempted alteration to one's mind is going to be based on what love is and means to that individual alone.
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Might also have to do with the Values we Consciously and Unconsciously hold.
Change some of them,and our Outlook on Life and Who/What we love will also change.
JMO
Change some of them,and our Outlook on Life and Who/What we love will also change.
JMO
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lktolbert: Whether or not love was actually "there" is irrelevant. All that matters is that the individual doing the self mind altering BELIEVED it was there. Love is subjective. Although many aspects of "love" are agreed upon by the masses, each individual applies his or her own details to the definition, such as criteria, characteristerics, conditions, manifestations, etc. Whether or not one's definition of love meets another's does not matter, as any attempted alteration to one's mind is going to be based on what love is and means to that individual alone.
I think it goes beyond simple belief. We can create any number of love scenarios in our heads, but in reality there will be recognition as real, some truth that says "yep that's real love". I accept your assertion that belief can be a factor because belief does not require any sort of substantial proof to be a belief.
For it to be true however, is another thing and in this case, from my perspective, true love requires truth with oneself and your counterpart, and that negates belief, more so if the belief is unsubstantiated. That sort of love is illusory, ephemeral and too whispy to be true love.
It would be like telling myself I can hit a baseball two hundred miles away.. Belief may be present, but no amount of belief affects the truth that I will not achieve this. Belief has no limitations, truth is bounded and undeniable. True (truthful) love is not muteable or changeable.
People alter the defintion of love by adding or subtracting criteria and personalizing it so as to make love something that makes them "feel" loved". I humbly submit that that is a deviation from truth, a deviation from real love. We do it to appease our desires and delude ourselves into feeling loved or beliveing that we love others. Believing that deviation doesn't make it reamin as love, it makes it our acceptable redefined form of love....far from what true love is. .
belief is strong elixir but useless in presence of truth.
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BnaturAl: I think it goes beyond simple belief. We can create any number of love scenarios in our heads, but in reality there will be recognition as real, some truth that says "yep that's real love". I accept your assertion that belief can be a factor because belief does not require any sort of substantial proof to be a belief.
For it to be true however, is another thing and in this case, from my perspective, true love requires truth with oneself and your counterpart, and that negates belief, more so if the belief is unsubstantiated. That sort of love is illusory, ephemeral and too whispy to be true love.
It would be like telling myself I can hit a baseball two hundred miles away.. Belief may be present, but no amount of belief affects the truth that I will not achieve this. Belief has no limitations, truth is bounded and undeniable. True (truthful) love is not muteable or changeable.
People alter the defintion of love by adding or subtracting criteria and personalizing it so as to make love something that makes them "feel" loved". I humbly submit that that is a deviation from truth, a deviation from real love. We do it to appease our desires and delude ourselves into feeling loved or beliveing that we love others. Believing that deviation doesn't make it reamin as love, it makes it our acceptable redefined form of love....far from what true love is. .
belief is strong elixir but useless in presence of truth.
For it to be true however, is another thing and in this case, from my perspective, true love requires truth with oneself and your counterpart, and that negates belief, more so if the belief is unsubstantiated. That sort of love is illusory, ephemeral and too whispy to be true love.
It would be like telling myself I can hit a baseball two hundred miles away.. Belief may be present, but no amount of belief affects the truth that I will not achieve this. Belief has no limitations, truth is bounded and undeniable. True (truthful) love is not muteable or changeable.
People alter the defintion of love by adding or subtracting criteria and personalizing it so as to make love something that makes them "feel" loved". I humbly submit that that is a deviation from truth, a deviation from real love. We do it to appease our desires and delude ourselves into feeling loved or beliveing that we love others. Believing that deviation doesn't make it reamin as love, it makes it our acceptable redefined form of love....far from what true love is. .
belief is strong elixir but useless in presence of truth.
I agree with the essence of what you're saying, B, and I would've replied similarly to Linda on this point.
It strikes me as highly improbable that love is quite so idiosyncratic as she claims - that there isn't a universal element involved just as there is in all human actions and attitudes.
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Conrad73: Might also have to do with the Values we Consciously and Unconsciously hold.
Change some of them,and our Outlook on Life and Who/What we love will also change.
JMO
Change some of them,and our Outlook on Life and Who/What we love will also change.
JMO
Right, Conrad, I'm sure it's possible to change *some* of our values - values that do not truly reflect or are attached to our core personality. For instance, I doubt it is part of our core self to like a particular flavor of tea or even to be afraid of heights, and that's why we can change those things. But someone who is basically kind is not going to be able to alter his values through pure will - consciously or unconsciously held - so that he becomes basically mean.
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Ambrose2007: I'm currently debating this subject with a friend. He believes that through a combination of therapy, hypnosis, self-suggestion, and sheer willpower one make oneself fall out of love (he's claims to have done this with a long-time girlfriend). He also contends that one can will oneself to fall in love with someone. We might not *want* to fall in love with someone because of personal incompatibilities, but if one wanted to do so it would be possible - even if the person were poorly compatible.
He also applies this across the board to our desires: we could, for example, will ourselves to have different tastes in women (for example, change from liking skinny women to overweight women) if we so chose.
I believe there are quite a number of problematic elements in his position, but I'm wondering what thoughts my fellow CSers might have on this subject...
He also applies this across the board to our desires: we could, for example, will ourselves to have different tastes in women (for example, change from liking skinny women to overweight women) if we so chose.
I believe there are quite a number of problematic elements in his position, but I'm wondering what thoughts my fellow CSers might have on this subject...
I unequivically agree with your friend's assumption.
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lktolbert: the claim about the human mind having that potential is rather contestable
It is not a claim. It is a fact.
maybe I could be a serial killer if I truly wanted to, but is it possible that I could ever truly want to?
Your desire or lack of desire to be a serial killer is irrelevant. The question regarded whether willing oneself is possible. IT (mind alteration) may not be desirable, but IT is possible.You'd have to desire something strongly, in other words, to go through the mind-numbing tedium that you describe , Linda, and it's far from clear that it is even possible for you to have that strong desire.
Yes, one would definitely have to desire something strongly to sustain the mental effort necessary to alter one's mind in such a manner. Apparently it IS possible to have that strong a desire, given the processes your friend and other posters to your thread indicated they pursued in their efforts toward mind altering.
The bottom line is that while not everyone will be able to accomplish IT, not everyone will desire IT enough to make the effort to accomplish IT, and certainly many things are never desirable for IT (i.e., serial killer), but IT is possible.
It is not a claim. It is a fact.
maybe I could be a serial killer if I truly wanted to, but is it possible that I could ever truly want to?
Your desire or lack of desire to be a serial killer is irrelevant. The question regarded whether willing oneself is possible. IT (mind alteration) may not be desirable, but IT is possible.You'd have to desire something strongly, in other words, to go through the mind-numbing tedium that you describe , Linda, and it's far from clear that it is even possible for you to have that strong desire.
Yes, one would definitely have to desire something strongly to sustain the mental effort necessary to alter one's mind in such a manner. Apparently it IS possible to have that strong a desire, given the processes your friend and other posters to your thread indicated they pursued in their efforts toward mind altering.
The bottom line is that while not everyone will be able to accomplish IT, not everyone will desire IT enough to make the effort to accomplish IT, and certainly many things are never desirable for IT (i.e., serial killer), but IT is possible.
Well, first, Linda, I appreciate your taking time from your costume construction to give us your thoughts.I guess I'm not exactly sure what it is you're asserting is a fact. I'm assuming it's that we do have the power to will ourselves in and out of love, among other things. If so, I'm not sure I see how that could be objectively demonstrated (that is, elevated to the status of fact) given the subjective states involved, the inherent difficulty of measuring behaviors/states, and the lack of anything resembling complete knowledge of human nature. Granted, some things about human behavior have achieved factual status, but I can't see this as one of them. You'd have to point me to some evidence for that, provide some supportive argumentation, or perhaps clarify your claim a bit.
I would say that almost certainly some things are quite impossible for us to want. For example, I doubt there is any power on Earth or beyond that could make you want to harm your son - not without physically altering your identity... but in that case it wouldn't be *you* wanting that. I'm claiming that you, as you are presently constituted and in the present circumstances, could not will yourself to want that.
If that is true, then it seems you would be obligated to soften your claim a bit. Even my friend, by the way, qualifies his position considerably, rendering it far weaker than yours. Some aspects of will, I'm arguing, do not reduce to questions of effort. No matter how much effort you devote there are some things you cannot make yourself want to do (I'm not including intensive brainwashing or chemical alterations of one's personality). That seems awfully commensensical to me.
I have the sense you're speaking from a very strong belief system on this, Linda, and I'm curious what it might be (I've read a lot of psychology and self-help literature over the years, and haven't encountered quite as emphatic as your position before).
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BnaturAl: I think it goes beyond simple belief. We can create any number of love scenarios in our heads, but in reality there will be recognition as real, some truth that says "yep that's real love". I accept your assertion that belief can be a factor because belief does not require any sort of substantial proof to be a belief.
For it to be true however, is another thing and in this case, from my perspective, true love requires truth with oneself and your counterpart, and that negates belief, more so if the belief is unsubstantiated. That sort of love is illusory, ephemeral and too whispy to be true love.
It would be like telling myself I can hit a baseball two hundred miles away.. Belief may be present, but no amount of belief affects the truth that I will not achieve this. Belief has no limitations, truth is bounded and undeniable. True (truthful) love is not muteable or changeable.
People alter the defintion of love by adding or subtracting criteria and personalizing it so as to make love something that makes them "feel" loved". I humbly submit that that is a deviation from truth, a deviation from real love. We do it to appease our desires and delude ourselves into feeling loved or beliveing that we love others. Believing that deviation doesn't make it reamin as love, it makes it our acceptable redefined form of love....far from what true love is. .
belief is strong elixir but useless in presence of truth.
For it to be true however, is another thing and in this case, from my perspective, true love requires truth with oneself and your counterpart, and that negates belief, more so if the belief is unsubstantiated. That sort of love is illusory, ephemeral and too whispy to be true love.
It would be like telling myself I can hit a baseball two hundred miles away.. Belief may be present, but no amount of belief affects the truth that I will not achieve this. Belief has no limitations, truth is bounded and undeniable. True (truthful) love is not muteable or changeable.
People alter the defintion of love by adding or subtracting criteria and personalizing it so as to make love something that makes them "feel" loved". I humbly submit that that is a deviation from truth, a deviation from real love. We do it to appease our desires and delude ourselves into feeling loved or beliveing that we love others. Believing that deviation doesn't make it reamin as love, it makes it our acceptable redefined form of love....far from what true love is. .
belief is strong elixir but useless in presence of truth.
Apparently I'm not clearly making my point. What constitutes "love" is another subject altogether. I am responding only to the question posted.
The ENTIRE debate about "love" being TRUE or REAL or ABSOLUTE or UNDENIABLE or WARM or FUZZY or RED or GREEN or BLUE, etc., is irrelevant to the point. WHATEVER is in one's head is REAL/TRUE to that individual, and that individual has the ability to alter it. He or she may not possess the knowledge or the desire to do it, but it is possible based on what we know about the human brain.
It is NOT like telling the self that the self can hit a baseball a hundred miles. Hitting a baseball is an act performed OUTSIDE one's head and involves physical conditions/attributes. The TRUTH inside one's head is abstract and extremely subjective. That the world was once flat was believed by many to be TRUE. Of course we now know it was not true. BUT, AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, INSIDE THE HEAD WHO BELIEVED IT, WHATEVER MIND ALTERATIONS WERE POSSIBLE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL WERE BASED ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S REALITY/TRUTH/BELIEF, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEIR "TRUTH' HAD ANY BASIS IN FACT.
IF I BELIEVE IT IS LOVE, MY REALITY/TRUTH IS THAT IT IS LOVE. If any mind altering regarding the subject of love is going to transpire in MY head, it is going to be based on what I believe to be LOVE. The actual objective truth or what other's believe is true is irrelevant to the task at hand, i.e., altering MY mind's belief/truth/reality.
WHAT I BELIEVE IS MY REALITY. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS TRUE TO ANYONE EXISTING OUTSIDE MY HEAD IS IRRELEVANT.
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lktolbert: Apparently I'm not clearly making my point. What constitutes "love" is another subject altogether. I am responding only to the question posted.
The ENTIRE debate about "love" being TRUE or REAL or ABSOLUTE or UNDENIABLE or WARM or FUZZY or RED or GREEN or BLUE, etc., is irrelevant to the point. WHATEVER is in one's head is REAL/TRUE to that individual, and that individual has the ability to alter it. He or she may not possess the knowledge or the desire to do it, but it is possible based on what we know about the human brain.
It is NOT like telling the self that the self can hit a baseball a hundred miles. Hitting a baseball is an act performed OUTSIDE one's head and involves physical conditions/attributes. The TRUTH inside one's head is abstract and extremely subjective. That the world was once flat was believed by many to be TRUE. Of course we now know it was not true. BUT, AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, INSIDE THE HEAD WHO BELIEVED IT, WHATEVER MIND ALTERATIONS WERE POSSIBLE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL WERE BASED ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S REALITY/TRUTH/BELIEF, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEIR "TRUTH' HAD ANY BASIS IN FACT.
IF I BELIEVE IT IS LOVE, MY REALITY/TRUTH IS THAT IT IS LOVE. If any mind altering regarding the subject of love is going to transpire in MY head, it is going to be based on what I believe to be LOVE. The actual objective truth or what other's believe is true is irrelevant to the task at hand, i.e., altering MY mind's belief/truth/reality.
WHAT I BELIEVE IS MY REALITY. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS TRUE TO ANYONE EXISTING OUTSIDE MY HEAD IS IRRELEVANT.
The ENTIRE debate about "love" being TRUE or REAL or ABSOLUTE or UNDENIABLE or WARM or FUZZY or RED or GREEN or BLUE, etc., is irrelevant to the point. WHATEVER is in one's head is REAL/TRUE to that individual, and that individual has the ability to alter it. He or she may not possess the knowledge or the desire to do it, but it is possible based on what we know about the human brain.
It is NOT like telling the self that the self can hit a baseball a hundred miles. Hitting a baseball is an act performed OUTSIDE one's head and involves physical conditions/attributes. The TRUTH inside one's head is abstract and extremely subjective. That the world was once flat was believed by many to be TRUE. Of course we now know it was not true. BUT, AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, INSIDE THE HEAD WHO BELIEVED IT, WHATEVER MIND ALTERATIONS WERE POSSIBLE FOR THAT INDIVIDUAL WERE BASED ON THAT INDIVIDUAL'S REALITY/TRUTH/BELIEF, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEIR "TRUTH' HAD ANY BASIS IN FACT.
IF I BELIEVE IT IS LOVE, MY REALITY/TRUTH IS THAT IT IS LOVE. If any mind altering regarding the subject of love is going to transpire in MY head, it is going to be based on what I believe to be LOVE. The actual objective truth or what other's believe is true is irrelevant to the task at hand, i.e., altering MY mind's belief/truth/reality.
WHAT I BELIEVE IS MY REALITY. WHETHER OR NOT IT IS TRUE TO ANYONE EXISTING OUTSIDE MY HEAD IS IRRELEVANT.
I agree with the point you are making here too, but you left the "C" word out........
CHOICE!!!
Anyone can choose to do, or be, or believe, anything they want.
Changing your mind on anything is easy, nothing complicated about it. You just CHOOSE to...........
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Well, Shel, I guess I have to try argue my friend's position since certain other capable people probably will choose not to
I think my friend would say that while it's true that most people don't chose to eliminate their feelings of love after a breakup, that's largely because 1) some part of them actually gets something - some form of emotional satisfaction - out of clinging to those past emotions; 2) that most people don't believe they have the power to make such a choice; and 3) even suspecting they might have such a power, they have no knowledge of how to implement it.