can a religious person say for sure, that you will get entirnal punishment when you die..? (96)
itsimpossibleBrisbane, Queensland Australia4 Threads 777 Postsmichael63ca: You can't possibly know that for a fact.
No he can't, but he thinks he does. Just as bad as those religious people he hates so much.
itsimpossible: No he can't, but he thinks he does. Just as bad as those religious people he hates so much.
Hate is such a strong word, I prefer to say I love them lot less than I do everyone else. 
have a good night 
AgentAjax: Don’t confuse choice and free will they are not the same.
I disagree! choice and free will ARE one and the same!
michael63ca: I disagree! choice and free will ARE one and the same!
How about when your choices are imposed?
How could you call it a choice then jac? you can choose to let someone impose them on you or not! If you let someone impose your choices on you then obviously you don't have free will! It's NOT rocket science! 
michael63ca: How could you call it a choice then jac? you can choose to let someone impose them on you or not! If you let someone impose your choices on you then obviously you don't have free will! It's NOT rocket science!
Okay, how about those who had a choice to run and be shot, or go to concentration camps?
Did they choose to let someone impose those choices upon them?
It's still a choice, but maybe not exactly free will.
jac379: Okay, how about those who had a choice to run and be shot, or go to concentration camps?
Did they choose to let someone impose those choices upon them?
It's still a choice, but maybe not exactly free will.
Did they choose to let someone impose those choices upon them?
It's still a choice, but maybe not exactly free will.
Yes, they had a choice to run and be shot or die fighting.
Just as my Uncle had the choice to go over there from Canada and Fight for them.
michael63ca: Yes, they had a choice to run and be shot or die fighting.
Just as my Uncle had the choice to go over there from Canada and Fight for them.
Just as my Uncle had the choice to go over there from Canada and Fight for them.
So, you think having the choice between two imposed and unwanted outcomes is the same as having free will?
jac379: So, you think having the choice between two imposed and unwanted outcomes is the same as having free will?
That's right! Just as I have the free will to continue talking to someone that likes to argue! I can continue to keep trying to explain it to you or walk away and ignore you! MY free will! Life is FULL of both wanted and unwanted outcomes imposed or not! how we deal with them is up to us. Run or die fighting or do absolutely nothing.
Free will, your choice.
No one can say for sure.. That's why everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die 
jac379: Okay, so let me clarify:
Free will is something imposed by god whereby you get to make choices between things not of your choice, unless someone of their own god-imposed free will chooses to shoot you dead.
I was talking to a Polish woman the other day about catholicism. She said it was meaningful under their communist dictatorship as a symbol of freedom, but after the fall of communism (where to my mind they exchanged a communist dictatorship for catholic one and she agreed) it began to lose its connotations of freedom.
She said the way people handed over personal responsibility to the church to tell them what was right, or wrong lead to the Polish people being the least self-aware in Europe. They're now going through a process of taking back their personal responsibility for the way they behave towards others.
Free will is something imposed by god whereby you get to make choices between things not of your choice, unless someone of their own god-imposed free will chooses to shoot you dead.
I was talking to a Polish woman the other day about catholicism. She said it was meaningful under their communist dictatorship as a symbol of freedom, but after the fall of communism (where to my mind they exchanged a communist dictatorship for catholic one and she agreed) it began to lose its connotations of freedom.
She said the way people handed over personal responsibility to the church to tell them what was right, or wrong lead to the Polish people being the least self-aware in Europe. They're now going through a process of taking back their personal responsibility for the way they behave towards others.
Haha, no one can "Impose" free will upon you, not even god! what i get from what you wrote is nothing more than people allowing an organized religion run by imperfect humans claiming to "know" what god wants for them to control their lives. Once again, they have the free will to allow that to happen .....or not! Their choice.
michael63ca: Haha, no one can "Impose" free will upon you, not even god! what i get from what you wrote is nothing more than people allowing an organized religion run by imperfect humans claiming to "know" what god wants for them to control their lives. Once again, they have the free will to allow that to happen .....or not! Their choice.
You seemed to agree with Daytona that freewill is a god given ability.
Personally, I think free will is a much more complex issue and influence does impinge upon that. You can't very well have knowledge, or experience outside of your knowledge, or experience, ergo, your influences have an influence. That will be just one part of free will, or imposition.
"god-Given" and "Imposed upon" are 2 totally different things.
you don't necessarily HAVE to take what is "given" to you.
Influences will impinge upon your free will only if you allow it to.
For example I worked with a guy whose parents were strict Mormons their entire life, he grew up in a Mormon household, when he moved out and got married he had nothing to do with the Mormon ways. in spite of all his childhood influences and impositions he made the choice to go his own way.....free will.
It's really not complex at all!
you don't necessarily HAVE to take what is "given" to you.
Influences will impinge upon your free will only if you allow it to.
For example I worked with a guy whose parents were strict Mormons their entire life, he grew up in a Mormon household, when he moved out and got married he had nothing to do with the Mormon ways. in spite of all his childhood influences and impositions he made the choice to go his own way.....free will.
It's really not complex at all!
jac379: You seemed to agree with Daytona that freewill is a god given ability.
Personally, I think free will is a much more complex issue and influence does impinge upon that. You can't very well have knowledge, or experience outside of your knowledge, or experience, ergo, your influences have an influence. That will be just one part of free will, or imposition.
Personally, I think free will is a much more complex issue and influence does impinge upon that. You can't very well have knowledge, or experience outside of your knowledge, or experience, ergo, your influences have an influence. That will be just one part of free will, or imposition.
Indeed, choice usually means you are compelled to act in a certain way according to the conditioning of your mind. But true choice begins the moment you disidentify from the mind and it's conditioned patterns.
michael63ca: I disagree! choice and free will ARE one and the same!
choice: an act of choosing between two or more possibilities
free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion
to OP:
they can say whatever they want to say, but it doesn't mean they are correct...
michael63ca: "god-Given" and "Imposed upon" are 2 totally different things.
you don't necessarily HAVE to take what is "given" to you.
Influences will impinge upon your free will only if you allow it to.
For example I worked with a guy whose parents were strict Mormons their entire life, he grew up in a Mormon household, when he moved out and got married he had nothing to do with the Mormon ways. in spite of all his childhood influences and impositions he made the choice to go his own way.....free will.
It's really not complex at all!
you don't necessarily HAVE to take what is "given" to you.
Influences will impinge upon your free will only if you allow it to.
For example I worked with a guy whose parents were strict Mormons their entire life, he grew up in a Mormon household, when he moved out and got married he had nothing to do with the Mormon ways. in spite of all his childhood influences and impositions he made the choice to go his own way.....free will.
It's really not complex at all!
So, you have the free will to reject the free will given to you?
Isn't that using the free will given to you, ergo you have to accept it, to reject it?
jono7: choice: an act of choosing between two or more possibilities
free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion
to OP:
they can say whatever they want to say, but it doesn't mean they are correct...
free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion
to OP:
they can say whatever they want to say, but it doesn't mean they are correct...
Which would suggest the whole idea of god offering the free will to choose between god's way, or damnation doesn't make any sense at all.
Thanks for the definitions, Jono.
I think Pedro had it right with...
pedro27: ...it could damage someone saying that, something so serious
...and if we are self-aware enough, we can take responsibility for our actions and our impact upon others.
you have free will to make a choice or not to make choice.
what you choose is up to you whether you make the right choice or the wrong choice it is your free will that caused it.
what you choose is up to you whether you make the right choice or the wrong choice it is your free will that caused it.
WOW! You finally got it! You have the free will to reject the free will given to you, YES! If it was Imposed upon on you like the religious fanatics and churches would like it to be, you would be allowing your free will to be taken away from you! Still your choice!
bodleing2: Indeed, choice usually means you are compelled to act in a certain way according to the conditioning of your mind. But true choice begins the moment you disidentify from the mind and it's conditioned patterns.
I so like it when you turn up on threads like this.
You've always got an interesting challenge and a proper mind bender to offer.
So, how does one disidentify from the mind and its conditioned patterns?
michael63ca: WOW! You finally got it! You have the free will to reject the free will given to you, YES! If it was Imposed upon on you like the religious fanatics and churches would like it to be, you would be allowing your free will to be taken away from you! Still your choice!
And you still haven't got it! Naaarrrrghhhles!
stringman: you have free will to make a choice or not to make choice.
what you choose is up to you whether you make the right choice or the wrong choice it is your free will that caused it.
A free will that comes with consequences is not free will; free will would be without consequences, that is only one problem. Then there is the other with only having two choices “ yes or no.” there are many more arguments against free including ones with scientific backing.what you choose is up to you whether you make the right choice or the wrong choice it is your free will that caused it.
michael63ca: I disagree! choice and free will ARE one and the same!
You have to eat or you die its not a choice and its not free will. However you can choose what you put in your mouth. So how can it be one of the same?
michael63ca: WOW! You finally got it! You have the free will to reject the free will given to you, YES! If it was Imposed upon on you like the religious fanatics and churches would like it to be, you would be allowing your free will to be taken away from you! Still your choice!
Like having to sit in at a Game with a Stacked Deck,but unable to leave!
Well,you have "Free Will" to play,at the peril of total Ruin or possible Injury by the Goon running the Game!
The only thing that a religious person 'can say for sure' is something that has been proved by science. That same rule applies to a non-religious person
Everything else is just a belief. The fact that more than one religion exists is scientific proof that some beliefs are wrong.
Personally I believe that God hates people talking in absolute terms on his or her behalf.
Everything else is just a belief. The fact that more than one religion exists is scientific proof that some beliefs are wrong.
Personally I believe that God hates people talking in absolute terms on his or her behalf.
CmdrMercutio: The only thing that a religious person 'can say for sure' is something that has been proved by science. That same rule applies to a non-religious person
Everything else is just a belief. The fact that more than one religion exists is scientific proof that some beliefs are wrong.
Personally I believe that God hates people talking in absolute terms on his or her behalf.
Do you believe that? Everything else is just a belief. The fact that more than one religion exists is scientific proof that some beliefs are wrong.
Personally I believe that God hates people talking in absolute terms on his or her behalf.
AgentAjax: Do you believe that?
Yes, I believe it. I don't and can't know it to be true and therefore cannot state it as a fact. even in religion, only a thing provable by science may be stated as absolute.
It annoys me when preachers claim the pack of lies printed in the book of Genesis represents the true creation of the world when we have so many better sources to rely on...
Doesnt matter if one is 'religious' or not.. What does matter
is what and who you believe in.. i believe the Bible is the Living
Word of God and in it Jesus talks about hell many times and that
you dont want to go there. Its forever and its suffering.. i would
say Read and Believe in what God has told us in the Bible about
our true state of sin, forgiveness and Jesus the Savior so that
you wont be in doubt about heaven and hell when you die.
is what and who you believe in.. i believe the Bible is the Living
Word of God and in it Jesus talks about hell many times and that
you dont want to go there. Its forever and its suffering.. i would
say Read and Believe in what God has told us in the Bible about
our true state of sin, forgiveness and Jesus the Savior so that
you wont be in doubt about heaven and hell when you die.
wisconsin_guy: ....i believe the Bible is the Living Word of God....
Which bible do you believe that of?
I ask as obviously, it was written in Aramaic and some translations are radically different to others..
Also, copies of the bible prior to the 4th century are radically different, some 'books' are not present and others have different endings. In the Dead Sea Scrolls for instance, which are believed to be the oldest copy of the Bible still in existence, Jesus is lifted to heaven straight from the cross (identically to how the crucifixion is described in the islamic Qu'ran 3 centuries later on) and is not reborn.
They can't all be right. If you dont spend a bit of time working out which parts can and cannot be correct you put your future life in the hands of translators and editors.
wisconsin_guy: Doesnt matter if one is 'religious' or not.. What does matter
is what and who you believe in.. i believe the Bible is the Living
Word of God and in it Jesus talks about hell many times and that
you dont want to go there. Its forever and its suffering.. i would
say Read and Believe in what God has told us in the Bible about
our true state of sin, forgiveness and Jesus the Savior so that
you wont be in doubt about heaven and hell when you die.
is what and who you believe in.. i believe the Bible is the Living
Word of God and in it Jesus talks about hell many times and that
you dont want to go there. Its forever and its suffering.. i would
say Read and Believe in what God has told us in the Bible about
our true state of sin, forgiveness and Jesus the Savior so that
you wont be in doubt about heaven and hell when you die.
Exactly
Once one dies and crosses over into eternity it's too late to receive Christ. Eternity is not bound by time and therefore there is no more time for repentance. "For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation"
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