Do you believe in 'Original Sin' (99)
rusty_knight: Not a joke - so you believe a newborn baby carries the burden of Original Sin? Don't you think that's a little unfair on the baby?
I am not knocking what you believe, but don't you find it sad that a newborn baby is already condemned by what happened in the past?
I am not knocking what you believe, but don't you find it sad that a newborn baby is already condemned by what happened in the past?
I was born Catholic. The whole christening thing is about washing away original sin apparently.
I don't believe any child is born with sin.
Seems farcical to me, to be quite honest.
tgwstw: I was born Catholic. .
Correction my dear you where not born catholic you where born with catholic parents , there is no such thing as a religious child just children with religious parents , (wow I was able to resist being cheesy and posting “Correction my dear you where born beautiful”)tgwstw: Seems farcical to me, to be quite honest.
What is even more farcical is that the Vatican has established a committee to investigate what happens to the souls of unbaptised babieswixomwizard: I believe God holds you blameless UNTIL you actvate your sin nature by committing one.
God created the choice of good and evil and left it up to us, which one we would choose. Satanwas a angel of light, until he challlenged his creator by wanting to be better than Him.
Stop and think on this...NOTHING can ever be greater than that which created it.
God created the choice of good and evil and left it up to us, which one we would choose. Satanwas a angel of light, until he challlenged his creator by wanting to be better than Him.
Stop and think on this...NOTHING can ever be greater than that which created it.
That's what I always tell my children!
wixomwizard: I believe God holds you blameless UNTIL you actvate your sin nature by committing one.
God created the choice of good and evil and left it up to us, which one we would choose. Satanwas a angel of light, until he challlenged his creator by wanting to be better than Him.
Stop and think on this...NOTHING can ever be greater than that which created it.
God created the choice of good and evil and left it up to us, which one we would choose. Satanwas a angel of light, until he challlenged his creator by wanting to be better than Him.
Stop and think on this...NOTHING can ever be greater than that which created it.
What if you never commit a sin? Are you then perfect?
Ambrose2007: What if you never commit a sin? Are you then perfect?
Of course, if you MUST commit a sin, you have no free will. So it's a logical possibility that at least some human beings, exercising their free will, are in fact perfect (in terms of being sinless).
wixomwizard: Thank you webbs! I noticed I cleared the room pretty quick! I have a way of doing that, I think
How was your day?
How was your day?
I had to go to an appointment and am just getting back into the thread. wasn't ignoring you! my day has been better than some have been lately! I think the room cleared because you made your point very clearly without being judgmental...not easy to do.
wixomwizard: Forgive me, I just noticed you post. I like it! It's hard to see why a athiest remains so stubborn. Everyone desires to be loved AND foregiven when they do something they know to be wrong. Both are offered to everyone, at no cost to them except acceptance...and still they don't see. I think they are wearing welders goggles.
thank you...I think knowing God brings a level of responsibility that most people are just not willing to face or accept and that is why many choose not to see. I don't get it either but it is their choice not to accept just as it is my choice to accept His forgiveness and His love.
Ambrose2007: What if you never commit a sin? Are you then perfect?
Yes, but Jesus Christ is the only human who ever was, being God in carnate, or, human form. He had to be in order to be the perfect, spotless, sacrifice. That is why God the Father accepted his death on the cross as PAYMENT for OUR sins. Jesus was the only person qualified to do so.
Because the payment was made for OUR sin, we no longer have to fear paying it ourselves. We still have a sin nature, but we do not have to be held captive by it. This do'es not mean that we will no longer sin, and it do'es not mean we have 'Carte Blanche' to do what we want because we are forgiven.
crotalus_p: What is even more farcical is that the Vatican has established a committee to investigate what happens to the souls of unbaptised babies
you have got to be kidding?...
Ambrose2007: Of course, if you MUST commit a sin, you have no free will. So it's a logical possibility that at least some human beings, exercising their free will, are in fact perfect (in terms of being sinless).
Of course you have free will. When the opportunity arises to do something that you know is wrong, you have the CHOICE to do it, or to do something else.
tgwstw: I was born Catholic. The whole christening thing is about washing away original sin apparently.
I don't believe any child is born with sin.
Seems farcical to me, to be quite honest.
I don't believe any child is born with sin.
Seems farcical to me, to be quite honest.
All babies are born with the potential to sin. But, until they do something that is wrong, I don't believe that trait is activated. That is why I believe ALL infants who die prematurely are without sin. They have'nt had the opportunity to do anything wrong. To do something wrong, it has to be a concious decision on the part of the individual. Baptism is a individual choice to identify yourself with what Jesus did on the cross for you. I don't believe infants and small children are capable of making that kind of a choice for themselves. They must understand and choose for themselves to be Baptised.
webbs: Yes, a person that has God still sins. Knowing God does not make me perfect or take away the fact that I am simply a flawed human being. Knowing God does give me a reason to want to continue to live my flawed human life. It gives me hope and it gives me a place to go for forgiveness when I do sin. Knowing God gives me a sense of belonging to something bigger than me. It gives me a sense of uniqueness and it gives me a sense of true, pure love. We all know that we hurt the ones we love and that goes for my God too. I do hurt Him when I sin. But I also have something to strive for. I can try to live my life the best that I can and honor God to the best of my ability. Some days I am better at it, but those times I suck...I know He is there to say it's okay I forgive.
So knowing God I still sin, but knowing God I strive to live a more godly and loving life.
So knowing God I still sin, but knowing God I strive to live a more godly and loving life.
Very nice post and what I believed, but the atheists here (although maybe not filled with over-flowing spiritual love and afection to all) DO have valid points!
Christians believe God created everything - then He must have created both Good AND evil. The arguement that Satan was/is a fallen angel doesn't take away the logic that if God created angels then God created Lucifer and God created the ability to be evil which makes God's motivation suspect.
Somebody once told me that God didn't create the angelic hosts - well then he didn't create everything and would therefore not be the supreme creator.
I think it's a good thing to have faith - and if you can have faith in something you perceive as good and can make you a better person then that's 'nice'.
I still believe the concept of Original Sin is not nice and something a rational human being has the right to question. The religious answers to such a question are all very 'sweet' but do not take away the fact that it makes us all born guilty when as individuals we should be free of sin that we have not commited.
I also know that this concept brings humility - we may think we have not sinned but have sinned without knowing in that we may have had an unfounded 'superior attitude' (definitely shown by some atheists who quite deliberately show they think anybody who has faith is being foolish).
The atheists DO have many valid points though and should not be dismissed - I personally believe that religion can be both a good and a bad thing for society..... depending where and when you live!
We will never know the answer as humans. I am an atheist but i keep an open mind. Until I die, I will not know. I try not to fixate on irrational things. Enjoy each day as it presents itself. Call it a miracle if you like but there are so many amazing things right here on planet earth that I think are more important and fascinating that we can experience. It's going to leave you feeling empty if you dwell on an unaswerable question. If there is a god we would have no control over anyway and therefore it doesnt matter.
Free Will,but saddled with a Tendency to do Evil?
Give me a frigging Break!!!!!!!
Then have the nerve to talk about Morality!
Give me a frigging Break!!!!!!!
Then have the nerve to talk about Morality!
Conrad73: Free Will,but saddled with a Tendency to do Evil?
Give me a frigging Break!!!!!!!
Then have the nerve to talk about Morality!
Give me a frigging Break!!!!!!!
Then have the nerve to talk about Morality!
Good morning Sir Conrad!
I hope your post wasn't directed at me (Your Imperial Holy Mercurialness!).
I believe you have sinned!
I believe you should repent!
Your punishment is this - go drink a glass of wine!
Then you must go forth into the outside world and kiss three very pretty young ladies - and only ask them AFTER you have kissed them if they found it a deeply religious experience!
Definitely not - a resounding no - i do believe in origial innocence though - ever seen an evil looking baby?
Sin is transgression of the law. A baby has not sinned, but also has not God. So shall die the second death, except that god in his wisedom has made place for them of the second resurrection and the books will be open to them at that time and have their fair chance if they should die before accountabilty. For it is appointted that all man shall die once then the judgement to life or destruction.
The term saved is the saving and not burned to destrution after judgement. A person under grace is saved but can turn from grace willfully and lose salvation. There is a verse saying that no one can take one from God's hand....but one can leave it of their own accord. The saying "Once saved always saved" is not of this life but after being "Born Again" after a judgement to life or of the first resurrection.
Born Again is used by people in this life after recieving grace. But those born again would be a spirit being. Christ is the first born of many brothern. First!!!! David, Abraham, Mary, your uncle Joe are still in the grave (asleep) awaitng resurrection at Christ return when all eyes shall see him.....no secret coming....it has yet to come. The only born again is Christ at this time. Being Born of spirit is not when the Holy Spirit and man's spirit join.....they only become a new babe in Christ....to grow and learn awaiting the birth into spirit.....flesh and blood can not ienter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If all went to heaven at death...then the resurrection would be a lie. Let all men be liars but never God.
The term saved is the saving and not burned to destrution after judgement. A person under grace is saved but can turn from grace willfully and lose salvation. There is a verse saying that no one can take one from God's hand....but one can leave it of their own accord. The saying "Once saved always saved" is not of this life but after being "Born Again" after a judgement to life or of the first resurrection.
Born Again is used by people in this life after recieving grace. But those born again would be a spirit being. Christ is the first born of many brothern. First!!!! David, Abraham, Mary, your uncle Joe are still in the grave (asleep) awaitng resurrection at Christ return when all eyes shall see him.....no secret coming....it has yet to come. The only born again is Christ at this time. Being Born of spirit is not when the Holy Spirit and man's spirit join.....they only become a new babe in Christ....to grow and learn awaiting the birth into spirit.....flesh and blood can not ienter into the Kingdom of Heaven. If all went to heaven at death...then the resurrection would be a lie. Let all men be liars but never God.
RillyNiceGuy: . Let all men be liars but never God.
According to what I've read in the bible God must be a liar.
The way he tested Abraham was both a lie and very, very cruel......... the way he supported those he chose over others he created in battle was very cruel.
A cruel and evil God.
If God really loved/loves us He would not have allowed evil to come into existence......... period!
Sorry, God - this son is feeling quite rebellious and anyway if you created mankind in your image and we are like you then you're not that nice an entity - right?
I've been told that God never changes - that the God of the Old Testament is the same God as the God in the New Testament........ a nasty piece of work if you think about it!
Really - we should live all our lives in the hope that if God exists He isn't the God we read about in the bible!
rusty_knight: Good morning Sir Conrad!
I hope your post wasn't directed at me (Your Imperial Holy Mercurialness!).
I believe you have sinned!
I believe you should repent!
Your punishment is this - go drink a glass of wine!
Then you must go forth into the outside world and kiss three very pretty young ladies - and only ask them AFTER you have kissed them if they found it a deeply religious experience!
Nope,just a general venting at what I read prior to my post.I hope your post wasn't directed at me (Your Imperial Holy Mercurialness!).
I believe you have sinned!
I believe you should repent!
Your punishment is this - go drink a glass of wine!
Then you must go forth into the outside world and kiss three very pretty young ladies - and only ask them AFTER you have kissed them if they found it a deeply religious experience!
If I drank that glass of Wine,NO young Lady would be safe!
Conrad73: Nope,just a general venting at what I read prior to my post.
If I drank that glass of Wine,NO young Lady would be safe!
If I drank that glass of Wine,NO young Lady would be safe!
If I drank that glass of Wine,NO young Lady would be safe!
So?
He had to come as he came to be who he is, he had to be who he is to live as he lived, he had to live as he lived to do what he did.
Conrad73: Man either has Free Will,or he doesn't,can't have it Both Ways!
Man can have free will.....and all others have a free will as to reply to other's freewill actions......even God.
Conrad73: Man either has Free Will,or he doesn't,can't have it Both Ways!
No one forces you to buy a drink, put it in front of your face or drink it. You are exercising your free will to do so.
wixomwizard: No one forces you to buy a drink, put it in front of your face or drink it. You are exercising your free will to do so.
Think so?
ok.. i read the whole thread and i am still not getting it..
if god is the origin.. as some seem to think or as its written in the bible.. then hesheit has created sin?
how is that possible if he/she/it is at the same time perceived as the ultimate good?as perfect???
with the old samurai in japan a sin was that meassurement in archery by which a bowman missed the mark.
if god is the origin.. as some seem to think or as its written in the bible.. then hesheit has created sin?
how is that possible if he/she/it is at the same time perceived as the ultimate good?as perfect???
with the old samurai in japan a sin was that meassurement in archery by which a bowman missed the mark.
Conrad73: Think so?
Makes pure sense too me.
Original sin in Christianity is sin that handed down through the generations from the original sinner; Adam. I think it is among the biggest loads of horse dung concepts presented by Christian teachings.
People are born innocent in that they have not had a chance to break any of man's laws yet and that is all. We are imperfect creatures and will make mistakes but being imperfect has nothing to do with some guy that took a bite from an apple (tree of knowledge) forever cursing everyone after.
People are born innocent in that they have not had a chance to break any of man's laws yet and that is all. We are imperfect creatures and will make mistakes but being imperfect has nothing to do with some guy that took a bite from an apple (tree of knowledge) forever cursing everyone after.
Paradox67: Original sin in Christianity is sin that handed down through the generations from the original sinner; Adam. I think it is among the biggest loads of horse dung concepts presented by Christian teachings.
People are born innocent in that they have not had a chance to break any of man's laws yet and that is all. We are imperfect creatures and will make mistakes but being imperfect has nothing to do with some guy that took a bite from an apple (tree of knowledge) forever cursing everyone after.
People are born innocent in that they have not had a chance to break any of man's laws yet and that is all. We are imperfect creatures and will make mistakes but being imperfect has nothing to do with some guy that took a bite from an apple (tree of knowledge) forever cursing everyone after.
Who said it was a apple tree??? I think you are,"partly truth, partly fiction."
Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not.
It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him—it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man.
The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.
A.R.
It does not matter who then becomes the profiteer on his renounced glory and tormented soul, a mystic God with some incomprehensible design or any passer-by whose rotting sores are held as some inexplicable claim upon him—it does not matter, the good is not for him to understand, his duty is to crawl through years of penance, atoning for the guilt of his existence to any stray collector of unintelligible debts, his only concept of a value is a zero: the good is that which is non-man.
The name of this monstrous absurdity is Original Sin.
A.R.
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So knowing God I still sin, but knowing God I strive to live a more godly and loving life.
Forgive me, I just noticed you post. I like it! It's hard to see why a athiest remains so stubborn. Everyone desires to be loved AND foregiven when they do something they know to be wrong. Both are offered to everyone, at no cost to them except acceptance...and still they don't see. I think they are wearing welders goggles.