Israel: War = Expansion (846)
Wow_FactorLondon, Greater London, England UK45 Threads 3,698 PostsHelen Thomas 
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SilverBirch: Conrad, let me add this to the list. "Fark the"
European Union
United Nations
Lady Ashton
Jimmy Carter
Bertrand Russel
Turkey
Argentina
Brazil
Uruguay
NNPT
Desmond Tutu
Hillary Clinton
Peace Now
Did I miss any?
Nope,you got pretty much all the Nuts in one basket!European Union
United Nations
Lady Ashton
Jimmy Carter
Bertrand Russel
Turkey
Argentina
Brazil
Uruguay
NNPT
Desmond Tutu
Hillary Clinton
Peace Now
Did I miss any?
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Wow_Factor: As a newcomer to this thread you should learn that we do not like to call people insulting names
Whew Wow Wasn't What YOU SAID Wuz FUNNY!
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Wow_Factor: If peace was declared by the Palestinians, every single head would turn!
Oh so what you call Peace is for the Palestinians to get the hell out. Is that it??? Remember the Romans casting you out??? Does that stand as the end of "historic" claims??? Get your head OUT OF THE SAND GIRL>
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SilverBirch: Whew Wow Wasn't What YOU SAID Wuz FUNNY!
I'm pleased you found it funny. It is nice to laugh isn't it rather than be obsessed with a subject you have little chance of achnowledging the truth of. Anyway, have you bought your girlfriend her Christmas present yet. You can tell us what you bought - I am sure she won't log in here at all.
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Conrad73: Nope,you got pretty much all the Nuts in one basket!
Solipsism look it up Conrad.------ This thread is Archived ------
Palestine, Brazil Nuts and Argentine Ants
David Singer
07 Dec 2010
President Obama has been double-crossed by the extraordinary behaviour of Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas in seeking Brazil’s recognition of a Palestinian State “within the 1967 borders”.
A succeeding announcement by Argentina also recognizes a Palestinian state “within the 1967 borders” . Uruguay could be set to shortly follow suit.
In initially approaching Brazil for such recognition without advising Obama - Abbas could well have scuttled Obama’s further involvement in getting Israel and the PA to resume their stalled negotiations,
Abbas’s intemperate action could see the parties left to go their own ways after 17 years of failed American diplomacy to get even the most basic of understandings between Israel and the PA.
Continued
David Singer
07 Dec 2010
President Obama has been double-crossed by the extraordinary behaviour of Palestinian Authority (PA) President Mahmoud Abbas in seeking Brazil’s recognition of a Palestinian State “within the 1967 borders”.
A succeeding announcement by Argentina also recognizes a Palestinian state “within the 1967 borders” . Uruguay could be set to shortly follow suit.
In initially approaching Brazil for such recognition without advising Obama - Abbas could well have scuttled Obama’s further involvement in getting Israel and the PA to resume their stalled negotiations,
Abbas’s intemperate action could see the parties left to go their own ways after 17 years of failed American diplomacy to get even the most basic of understandings between Israel and the PA.
Continued
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Argentina’s subsequent recognition is set to further exacerbate the growing crisis between America and the PA as a result of Abbas apparently deciding to abandon the American brokered negotiations..
Abbas’s letter to Brazil’s President Lula da Silva was written on 24 November - at precisely the time Obama was mulling over the incentives he was prepared to offer Israel to induce it to announce a three month building freeze in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - thus enabling the PA to return to the negotiating table following its withdrawal from negotiations with Israel on 26 September.
Abbas made it clear in his letter to da Silva that the PA was not going to give Obama any further leeway the get the stalled negotiations resumed when he stated:
“The current situation in the Palestinian Territories shows a major escalation of Israeli actions. The Government of Israel refuses to stop its activities in the settlements. …Israel still defies the world and insists its colonization activities. This position hinders any possibility of reaching an agreement through negotiations and also creates a new reality on the ground, which prevents the two-state solution. “
This statement amounted to a clear repudiation of any intention by the PA to give President Obama any more time to defuse the very issue that Abbas claimed was preventing his return to the negotiating table.
CONTINUED
Abbas’s letter to Brazil’s President Lula da Silva was written on 24 November - at precisely the time Obama was mulling over the incentives he was prepared to offer Israel to induce it to announce a three month building freeze in the West Bank and East Jerusalem - thus enabling the PA to return to the negotiating table following its withdrawal from negotiations with Israel on 26 September.
Abbas made it clear in his letter to da Silva that the PA was not going to give Obama any further leeway the get the stalled negotiations resumed when he stated:
“The current situation in the Palestinian Territories shows a major escalation of Israeli actions. The Government of Israel refuses to stop its activities in the settlements. …Israel still defies the world and insists its colonization activities. This position hinders any possibility of reaching an agreement through negotiations and also creates a new reality on the ground, which prevents the two-state solution. “
This statement amounted to a clear repudiation of any intention by the PA to give President Obama any more time to defuse the very issue that Abbas claimed was preventing his return to the negotiating table.
CONTINUED
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SilverBirch: Oh so what you call Peace is for the Palestinians to get the hell out. Is that it??? Remember the Romans casting you out??? Does that stand as the end of "historic" claims??? Get your head OUT OF THE SAND GIRL>
No, of course not. They should accept that they could, if they calmed down and accepted peace, they could live in peace without all this futile aggression, biting the hand that feeds them as it wwere.
The Israeli Arabs have never had it so good living in Israel.
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Abbas’s request to da Silva in such circumstances was clear and unambiguous:
“ .. we hope, our dear friend, that you will decide to take the initiative recognize the state of Palestine within the 1967 borders.”
Da Silva apparently was prepared to go even further and advised Abbas on 3 December:
“Brazil, through this letter, recognizes a Palestinian state on 1967 borders.“
There certainly is a great difference between the words “on” and “within”. But irrespective of which term was used by da Silva - Abbas’s request was a blatant attempt to undermine and influence the outcome of any eventual resumption of the stalled negotiations between the PA and Israel.
The border to be drawn between Israel and the new Arab state was critical to the successful conclusion of any such negotiations, Abbas in his letter to da Silva had indicated he was not prepared to move one meter from the position that had been maintained by the Palestine Liberation Organization for the last 43 years.
Abbas was perfectly entitled to jettison Obama and seek diplomatic support elsewhere. But it appears that in doing so he has shot himself in the foot. Any trust between Abbas and Obama must be severely undermined as a result of Abbas’s action in unilaterally seeking Brazilian and Argentinean recognition.
The PA. Brazil and Argentina are engaging on a flight of fantasy because there are no “1967 borders”.
Continued
“ .. we hope, our dear friend, that you will decide to take the initiative recognize the state of Palestine within the 1967 borders.”
Da Silva apparently was prepared to go even further and advised Abbas on 3 December:
“Brazil, through this letter, recognizes a Palestinian state on 1967 borders.“
There certainly is a great difference between the words “on” and “within”. But irrespective of which term was used by da Silva - Abbas’s request was a blatant attempt to undermine and influence the outcome of any eventual resumption of the stalled negotiations between the PA and Israel.
The border to be drawn between Israel and the new Arab state was critical to the successful conclusion of any such negotiations, Abbas in his letter to da Silva had indicated he was not prepared to move one meter from the position that had been maintained by the Palestine Liberation Organization for the last 43 years.
Abbas was perfectly entitled to jettison Obama and seek diplomatic support elsewhere. But it appears that in doing so he has shot himself in the foot. Any trust between Abbas and Obama must be severely undermined as a result of Abbas’s action in unilaterally seeking Brazilian and Argentinean recognition.
The PA. Brazil and Argentina are engaging on a flight of fantasy because there are no “1967 borders”.
Continued
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There currently exists what Israeli Cabinet Minister Benny Begin describes as
“the totally artificial line of aggression which is expressed in the 1949 armistice demarcation line. It’s nothing more than that. It signified at the time the line of battle fatigue. That’s all.”
To define such armistice line as a “border” continues the fiction that has been regularly repeated by Abbas and by United Nations General Assembly resolutions. That does not make it a border. It never has been - and in the view of the United States - can never become a border for obvious reasons - 500000 Jews now live beyond those armistice lines where none lived in 1967 after all the Jews then living there had been driven out by six invading Arab armies in 1948.
Even more bizarre is the recognition which Brazil - and now Argentina - has afforded to
* A PA President whose term of office has long expired
* A PA Government which is unelected after having ousted a Government that was elected
* An area of territory that is neither under the administrative or security control of the PA but is currently controlled by Israel or Hamas
* Two different territorial areas that are not contiguous and are ruled by two different Arab Governments each claiming to represent the people seeking independence.
Both Brazil and Argentina have by their perverse decisions given new meaning to the terms “Brazil Nuts” and Argentine Ants”. Those countries which may be persuaded to follow these unprecedented acts of “recognition” - which run completely contrary to the requirements of international law - should think carefully before jumping into the diplomatic quicksand that such decisions will inevitably create as precedents for others claiming “recognition” such as the Kurds, the Basques. the Tibetans and the Corsicans.
What Abbas hoped to achieve by slapping Obama in the face in this manner is difficult to grasp. Certainly such acts of recognition will get headlines - but effectively such “recognition” in practice and in law means nothing.
Thumbing your nose at an American President and causing him considerable loss of face as Abbas has chosen to do - is not bound to go unnoticed or unpunished by Obama.
It would be no surprise if Obama now decided to disengage from any further effort to bring Israel and the PA back to the negotiating table.
The distinct impression has already been created that Obama could never come up with a letter that would induce Israel to freeze building activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Two weeks of trying to draft it has apparently eluded the State Department and its host of diplomats. Abbas has ensured that the letter will now be a much longer time in coming - if ever at all.
Abbas will only have himself to blame. Like so many of his predecessors he has once again proved the adage eloquently expressed by former Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban that the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
“the totally artificial line of aggression which is expressed in the 1949 armistice demarcation line. It’s nothing more than that. It signified at the time the line of battle fatigue. That’s all.”
To define such armistice line as a “border” continues the fiction that has been regularly repeated by Abbas and by United Nations General Assembly resolutions. That does not make it a border. It never has been - and in the view of the United States - can never become a border for obvious reasons - 500000 Jews now live beyond those armistice lines where none lived in 1967 after all the Jews then living there had been driven out by six invading Arab armies in 1948.
Even more bizarre is the recognition which Brazil - and now Argentina - has afforded to
* A PA President whose term of office has long expired
* A PA Government which is unelected after having ousted a Government that was elected
* An area of territory that is neither under the administrative or security control of the PA but is currently controlled by Israel or Hamas
* Two different territorial areas that are not contiguous and are ruled by two different Arab Governments each claiming to represent the people seeking independence.
Both Brazil and Argentina have by their perverse decisions given new meaning to the terms “Brazil Nuts” and Argentine Ants”. Those countries which may be persuaded to follow these unprecedented acts of “recognition” - which run completely contrary to the requirements of international law - should think carefully before jumping into the diplomatic quicksand that such decisions will inevitably create as precedents for others claiming “recognition” such as the Kurds, the Basques. the Tibetans and the Corsicans.
What Abbas hoped to achieve by slapping Obama in the face in this manner is difficult to grasp. Certainly such acts of recognition will get headlines - but effectively such “recognition” in practice and in law means nothing.
Thumbing your nose at an American President and causing him considerable loss of face as Abbas has chosen to do - is not bound to go unnoticed or unpunished by Obama.
It would be no surprise if Obama now decided to disengage from any further effort to bring Israel and the PA back to the negotiating table.
The distinct impression has already been created that Obama could never come up with a letter that would induce Israel to freeze building activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Two weeks of trying to draft it has apparently eluded the State Department and its host of diplomats. Abbas has ensured that the letter will now be a much longer time in coming - if ever at all.
Abbas will only have himself to blame. Like so many of his predecessors he has once again proved the adage eloquently expressed by former Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban that the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
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Wow_Factor: I'm pleased you found it funny. It is nice to laugh isn't it rather than be obsessed with a subject you have little chance of achnowledging the truth of. Anyway, have you bought your girlfriend her Christmas present yet. You can tell us what you bought - I am sure she won't log in here at all.
Not to get off subject (because it throws off my "Momentum!) I've got quite a LOT of gifts to give!Here's yours.
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Conrad73: There currently exists what Israeli Cabinet Minister Benny Begin describes as
“the totally artificial line of aggression which is expressed in the 1949 armistice demarcation line. It’s nothing more than that. It signified at the time the line of battle fatigue. That’s all.”To define such armistice line as a “border” continues the fiction that has been regularly repeated by Abbas and by United Nations General Assembly resolutions. That does not make it a border. It never has been - and in the view of the United States - can never become a border for obvious reasons - 500000 Jews now live beyond those armistice lines where none lived in 1967 after all the Jews then living there had been driven out by six invading Arab armies in 1948.
Even more bizarre is the recognition which Brazil - and now Argentina - has afforded to
* A PA President whose term of office has long expired
* A PA Government which is unelected after having ousted a Government that was elected
* An area of territory that is neither under the administrative or security control of the PA but is currently controlled by Israel or Hamas
* Two different territorial areas that are not contiguous and are ruled by two different Arab Governments each claiming to represent the people seeking independence.
Both Brazil and Argentina have by their perverse decisions given new meaning to the terms “Brazil Nuts” and Argentine Ants”. Those countries which may be persuaded to follow these unprecedented acts of “recognition” - which run completely contrary to the requirements of international law - should think carefully before jumping into the diplomatic quicksand that such decisions will inevitably create as precedents for others claiming “recognition” such as the Kurds, the Basques. the Tibetans and the Corsicans.
What Abbas hoped to achieve by slapping Obama in the face in this manner is difficult to grasp. Certainly such acts of recognition will get headlines - but effectively such “recognition” in practice and in law means nothing.
Thumbing your nose at an American President and causing him considerable loss of face as Abbas has chosen to do - is not bound to go unnoticed or unpunished by Obama.
It would be no surprise if Obama now decided to disengage from any further effort to bring Israel and the PA back to the negotiating table.
The distinct impression has already been created that Obama could never come up with a letter that would induce Israel to freeze building activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Two weeks of trying to draft it has apparently eluded the State Department and its host of diplomats. Abbas has ensured that the letter will now be a much longer time in coming - if ever at all.
Abbas will only have himself to blame. Like so many of his predecessors he has once again proved the adage eloquently expressed by former Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban that the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
“the totally artificial line of aggression which is expressed in the 1949 armistice demarcation line. It’s nothing more than that. It signified at the time the line of battle fatigue. That’s all.”To define such armistice line as a “border” continues the fiction that has been regularly repeated by Abbas and by United Nations General Assembly resolutions. That does not make it a border. It never has been - and in the view of the United States - can never become a border for obvious reasons - 500000 Jews now live beyond those armistice lines where none lived in 1967 after all the Jews then living there had been driven out by six invading Arab armies in 1948.
Even more bizarre is the recognition which Brazil - and now Argentina - has afforded to
* A PA President whose term of office has long expired
* A PA Government which is unelected after having ousted a Government that was elected
* An area of territory that is neither under the administrative or security control of the PA but is currently controlled by Israel or Hamas
* Two different territorial areas that are not contiguous and are ruled by two different Arab Governments each claiming to represent the people seeking independence.
Both Brazil and Argentina have by their perverse decisions given new meaning to the terms “Brazil Nuts” and Argentine Ants”. Those countries which may be persuaded to follow these unprecedented acts of “recognition” - which run completely contrary to the requirements of international law - should think carefully before jumping into the diplomatic quicksand that such decisions will inevitably create as precedents for others claiming “recognition” such as the Kurds, the Basques. the Tibetans and the Corsicans.
What Abbas hoped to achieve by slapping Obama in the face in this manner is difficult to grasp. Certainly such acts of recognition will get headlines - but effectively such “recognition” in practice and in law means nothing.
Thumbing your nose at an American President and causing him considerable loss of face as Abbas has chosen to do - is not bound to go unnoticed or unpunished by Obama.
It would be no surprise if Obama now decided to disengage from any further effort to bring Israel and the PA back to the negotiating table.
The distinct impression has already been created that Obama could never come up with a letter that would induce Israel to freeze building activity in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Two weeks of trying to draft it has apparently eluded the State Department and its host of diplomats. Abbas has ensured that the letter will now be a much longer time in coming - if ever at all.
Abbas will only have himself to blame. Like so many of his predecessors he has once again proved the adage eloquently expressed by former Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban that the Arabs never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.
Pity how deep you have to dig to find something to post that supports your apartheid mania.
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Wow_Factor: No, of course not. They should accept that they could, if they calmed down and accepted peace, they could live in peace without all this futile aggression, biting the hand that feeds them as it wwere.
The Israeli Arabs have never had it so good living in Israel.
Tell that to the families of the 1400 slaughtered in "Cast Lead"The Israeli Arabs have never had it so good living in Israel.
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SilverBirch: Tell that to the families of the 1400 slaughtered in "Cast Lead"
Chubby Checker Style!Not tired of you Fibs,hmmmm?
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SilverBirch: Pity how deep you have to dig to find something to post that supports your apartheid mania.
Never as deep as you!NEVAAAAAR!
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Albertaghost: No we are not Silverbunny. Adrummer, Bunny and Sugarbirch are missing.
Seen those lightweights around lately? If not, perhaps you might want to consult something akin to a book as there has been an Arab implemented war against Israel since 1948 so, without their attempts to actually and seriously implement a peace with Israel regardless of Israel's response, they are still the aggressors.
So, putting your collective heads together perhaps you can tell us all what terms the Palestinians have put forth that pass for something they would promise not to continue making war on Israel?
Seen those lightweights around lately? If not, perhaps you might want to consult something akin to a book as there has been an Arab implemented war against Israel since 1948 so, without their attempts to actually and seriously implement a peace with Israel regardless of Israel's response, they are still the aggressors.
So, putting your collective heads together perhaps you can tell us all what terms the Palestinians have put forth that pass for something they would promise not to continue making war on Israel?
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Conrad73: Majority of PA Arabs See Two States as 'Temporary Solution’
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
A majority of Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza favor two states only as a step towards an Arab state of Palestine, by the use of violence, if necessary, according to a new poll by the non- profit The Israel Project.
The results of the survey were released on Friday, hours before Palestinian Authority negotiator Saeb Erekat said that if Israel agrees to recognizing the Palestinian Authority as a new Arab country based on Israel’s size being shrunk to the indefensible 1949 Armistice Line borders, the PA then would relinquish all claims to “historic Palestine,” which he said includes all of Israel from the Dead Sea to the Mediterranean Seas.
The Israel Project poll of PA Arabs shows that 60 percent favor direct negotiations with Israel for “two states” of the Palestinian Authority and Israel, but it also reveals that two-thirds agree that “over time, Palestinian must work to get back all the land for a Palestinian state.”
Only 23 percent of the respondent agreed that “Israel has a permanent right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people.”
The option of armed violence still is a high priority for a majority of PA Arabs, 58 percent preferring “armed struggle” over “engagement with Israel.” A majority of Arabs in both Gaza and Judea and Samaria favor violence, with a higher percentage in Gaza.
On the other hand, Arab opinion was somewhat more conciliatory when respondents were given the option that an agreement with Israel would be based on 1949-1967 Armistice lines, once referred to former Israel Ambassador to the United Nations Abba Eban as “Auschwitz borders.”
Most of the PA Arab would like to see an end to the naming of public places after terrorists, but only a tiny minority of 12 percent agree that official maps, documents and school textbooks should show the name ”Israel.”
As in previous polls, the popularity of Hamas has declined, even in Gaza, where the rival Fatah party would easily win if elections were held today.
In contrast to another recent poll that showed PA Arabs as having a favorable view of Iran, most of the respondents in the Israel Project poll had negative opinions on Iran and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
(IsraelNationalNews.com)
Yes there is a Hidden Agenda,and PA has it!
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
A majority of Arabs in Judea, Samaria and Gaza favor two states only as a step towards an Arab state of Palestine, by the use of violence, if necessary, according to a new poll by the non- profit The Israel Project.
The results of the survey were released on Friday, hours before Palestinian Authority negotiator Saeb Erekat said that if Israel agrees to recognizing the Palestinian Authority as a new Arab country based on Israel’s size being shrunk to the indefensible 1949 Armistice Line borders, the PA then would relinquish all claims to “historic Palestine,” which he said includes all of Israel from the Dead Sea to the Mediterranean Seas.
The Israel Project poll of PA Arabs shows that 60 percent favor direct negotiations with Israel for “two states” of the Palestinian Authority and Israel, but it also reveals that two-thirds agree that “over time, Palestinian must work to get back all the land for a Palestinian state.”
Only 23 percent of the respondent agreed that “Israel has a permanent right to exist as a homeland for the Jewish people.”
The option of armed violence still is a high priority for a majority of PA Arabs, 58 percent preferring “armed struggle” over “engagement with Israel.” A majority of Arabs in both Gaza and Judea and Samaria favor violence, with a higher percentage in Gaza.
On the other hand, Arab opinion was somewhat more conciliatory when respondents were given the option that an agreement with Israel would be based on 1949-1967 Armistice lines, once referred to former Israel Ambassador to the United Nations Abba Eban as “Auschwitz borders.”
Most of the PA Arab would like to see an end to the naming of public places after terrorists, but only a tiny minority of 12 percent agree that official maps, documents and school textbooks should show the name ”Israel.”
As in previous polls, the popularity of Hamas has declined, even in Gaza, where the rival Fatah party would easily win if elections were held today.
In contrast to another recent poll that showed PA Arabs as having a favorable view of Iran, most of the respondents in the Israel Project poll had negative opinions on Iran and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.
(IsraelNationalNews.com)
Yes there is a Hidden Agenda,and PA has it!
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patmac: In any conflict in any war both sides in the conflict will make "mistakes,errors of judgement" and both at any given point will be the aggressor.
F A C T ..
But S B Your continual opening threads against one side and supporting one side negates any argument you have on the subject.
Your obvious bias makes any claim rightly or wrongly a joke in the eyes of any neutral observer.
I have always have had an open mind to this ongoing problem and like the rest of the world can see fault on both sides, I have not posted on your Anti Israeli threads for a while and thought you may have actually used your time recently to try to get information from both sides of the argument.
Sadly I was wrong.
Mind you even if you read a thousand books you are so set in your mind that even handedness is not in your remit.
I feel sad that an otherwise intelligent man is so biased and bigoted
F A C T ..
But S B Your continual opening threads against one side and supporting one side negates any argument you have on the subject.
Your obvious bias makes any claim rightly or wrongly a joke in the eyes of any neutral observer.
I have always have had an open mind to this ongoing problem and like the rest of the world can see fault on both sides, I have not posted on your Anti Israeli threads for a while and thought you may have actually used your time recently to try to get information from both sides of the argument.
Sadly I was wrong.
Mind you even if you read a thousand books you are so set in your mind that even handedness is not in your remit.
I feel sad that an otherwise intelligent man is so biased and bigoted
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