Margaret Thatcher RIP (251)
whatever about refering to sands et all about being political prisoners
it was the statement that they were not like other odc prisoners
i did not know that rapists, muggers, bank robbers etc were decent
but then again when you been using illegal drugs for along period of time, maybe you have a diff definition of decent
it was the statement that they were not like other odc prisoners
i did not know that rapists, muggers, bank robbers etc were decent
but then again when you been using illegal drugs for along period of time, maybe you have a diff definition of decent
snowlynx: Interesting points Sofar.
Especially the one about being pig headed, I think what most people mean there is that she had certain core values and wouldn't compromise on them, unlike some leaders who would do anything that they think will make them popular. That, to me, is a strength not a weakness.
Especially the one about being pig headed, I think what most people mean there is that she had certain core values and wouldn't compromise on them, unlike some leaders who would do anything that they think will make them popular. That, to me, is a strength not a weakness.
Again it depends on the core values doesn't it. Like Stalin had core values that he would not comprimise on. Now I am not saying she is like Stalin in any way even though people in the North of England may disagree.
My point is her failure to find any middle ground in anything was not something to be admired in my opinion. She ruled a democracy like any autocratic leader you could name. Members of her cabinet said she paid more attention to what her hairdresser thought of her policies than her own cabinet.
That is not a value to be admired. And in the end it was what took her down. She was told to rethink the poll tax and refused.
I do agree the unions did have too much power but is breaking them and giving all the power to the employer any better.? Surely a middle ground would have been a better solution.
And I dont think she stood up to terrorism any more than any other British PM.
I was born in Liverpool, spending the first 16 years of my life there, it wasn't pretty the mess created by Thatcher, I certainly know what poverty looks like, I moved to London two months after leaving school as I didn't fancy hanging around in that mess.
Still I take no delight in her death, she herself was someone's mother someone's grandmother and for that reason I shall refrain from joining the blood thirsty joyous brigade
Still I take no delight in her death, she herself was someone's mother someone's grandmother and for that reason I shall refrain from joining the blood thirsty joyous brigade
ohwiseone: Margaret Thatcher was the most divisive and polarising politic leader of the last century. This is an incomplete list of why many of us fall on the side that does not regard her with anything other than odium…
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
A shift from income taxes to consumption taxes. You pay for what you use. Great policy.
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
And the highest at times
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
So what?
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
Understandable due to structural changes
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
Fight against inflation.
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
She only became PM in 1979 so you can't put this down to her.
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
So what?
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
Crime rates go up in recession. Hardly her fault seen as the recession wasn't hers.
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
What has that got to do with her?
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
Minimum wages lead to unemployment. Poverty comes through unemployment.
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
They were loss making. And privatisation led to lower prices for people.
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
A shift from income taxes to consumption taxes. You pay for what you use. Great policy.
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
And the highest at times
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
So what?
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
Understandable due to structural changes
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
Fight against inflation.
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
She only became PM in 1979 so you can't put this down to her.
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
So what?
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
Crime rates go up in recession. Hardly her fault seen as the recession wasn't hers.
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
What has that got to do with her?
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
Minimum wages lead to unemployment. Poverty comes through unemployment.
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
They were loss making. And privatisation led to lower prices for people.
ohwiseone: con't
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
This was in main to her policy of changing from income tax to consumption taxes. The wealthy were paying 80% and higher tax rates.
42. 21.9% inflation
She brought inflation down from 21% when she entered office to 4$ when she left. That was with a real growth rate of 5%. Another ridiculous assertion
Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.
She was the driving force in increasing British prosperity which was eroded for the previous 30 years. All the above assertions are misleading or false.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
This was in main to her policy of changing from income tax to consumption taxes. The wealthy were paying 80% and higher tax rates.
42. 21.9% inflation
She brought inflation down from 21% when she entered office to 4$ when she left. That was with a real growth rate of 5%. Another ridiculous assertion
Most people recognise the massive changes that evolved during the 1980s. However, to ascribe the positive changes to one person, as though they never would have happened in her absence, is laughable.
She was the driving force in increasing British prosperity which was eroded for the previous 30 years. All the above assertions are misleading or false.
You made no rebuttal to No. 19, "she called Nelson Mandela a grubby little terrorist". She was wrong there. He was in fact a dirty little communist scumbag murdering terrorist.
facetowardsfront: You made no rebuttal to No. 19, "she called Nelson Mandela a grubby little terrorist". She was wrong there. He was in fact a dirty little communist scumbag murdering terrorist.
I just wasn't sure the background to some of them so preferred not to comment. It seems like a list of socialist propaganda alright.
I have no problem at all with someone who says they admire Thatcher. I am on the centre left of politics and if someone is to the right I am sure they would admire her.
But it's when people keep banging on about how they did not like her politics but still admired her I dont get. How is that? Can you admire someone being arrogant? Stubborn? Mis informed about many issues including Northern Ireland and even Football. Lets not forget she thought ALL football supporters were hooligans.
And for those who tell us how she stood up to terrorism. Well it can also be pointed out that she supported some very disgusting regiemes around the world because it suited her at the time.
She supported the apartheid government when it was at its deadliest killing many in the late 1980s in state terrorism in SA and abroad in bombings and cross-border raids on neighboring states accused of harboring guerrilla fighters.
She fully supported Augusto Pinochet and his disgusting disctatoship in Chile. In his time over 2000 people who spoke againts him were killed, 31,947 tortured and 1500 approx exiled. The man was a war criminal asnd she had him over on a state visit!
She supported other leaders in South America and coups and not to mention her son Marks involvent in the plot to overthrow a government.
People who want to admire the lady, well admire away. But at least be honest with the facts on her. All all those who say she has a family and nobody should speak ill of her. Well all the people who dies in SA young ahd families, all those people in Chile had fmailies and all those young boys on the Belgrano had families too.
But it's when people keep banging on about how they did not like her politics but still admired her I dont get. How is that?
Can you admire someone being arrogant? Stubborn? Mis informed about many issues including Northern Ireland and even Football. Lets not forget she thought ALL football supporters were hooligans.And for those who tell us how she stood up to terrorism. Well it can also be pointed out that she supported some very disgusting regiemes around the world because it suited her at the time.
She supported the apartheid government when it was at its deadliest killing many in the late 1980s in state terrorism in SA and abroad in bombings and cross-border raids on neighboring states accused of harboring guerrilla fighters.
She fully supported Augusto Pinochet and his disgusting disctatoship in Chile. In his time over 2000 people who spoke againts him were killed, 31,947 tortured and 1500 approx exiled. The man was a war criminal asnd she had him over on a state visit!
She supported other leaders in South America and coups and not to mention her son Marks involvent in the plot to overthrow a government.
People who want to admire the lady, well admire away. But at least be honest with the facts on her. All all those who say she has a family and nobody should speak ill of her. Well all the people who dies in SA young ahd families, all those people in Chile had fmailies and all those young boys on the Belgrano had families too.
sofarsogood74: I have no problem at all with someone who says they admire Thatcher. I am on the centre left of politics and if someone is to the right I am sure they would admire her.
But it's when people keep banging on about how they did not like her politics but still admired her I dont get. How is that? Can you admire someone being arrogant? Stubborn? Mis informed about many issues including Northern Ireland and even Football. Lets not forget she thought ALL football supporters were hooligans.
And for those who tell us how she stood up to terrorism. Well it can also be pointed out that she supported some very disgusting regiemes around the world because it suited her at the time.
She supported the apartheid government when it was at its deadliest killing many in the late 1980s in state terrorism in SA and abroad in bombings and cross-border raids on neighboring states accused of harboring guerrilla fighters.
She fully supported Augusto Pinochet and his disgusting disctatoship in Chile. In his time over 2000 people who spoke againts him were killed, 31,947 tortured and 1500 approx exiled. The man was a war criminal asnd she had him over on a state visit!
She supported other leaders in South America and coups and not to mention her son Marks involvent in the plot to overthrow a government.
People who want to admire the lady, well admire away. But at least be honest with the facts on her. All all those who say she has a family and nobody should speak ill of her. Well all the people who dies in SA young ahd families, all those people in Chile had fmailies and all those young boys on the Belgrano had families too.
But it's when people keep banging on about how they did not like her politics but still admired her I dont get. How is that? Can you admire someone being arrogant? Stubborn? Mis informed about many issues including Northern Ireland and even Football. Lets not forget she thought ALL football supporters were hooligans.
And for those who tell us how she stood up to terrorism. Well it can also be pointed out that she supported some very disgusting regiemes around the world because it suited her at the time.
She supported the apartheid government when it was at its deadliest killing many in the late 1980s in state terrorism in SA and abroad in bombings and cross-border raids on neighboring states accused of harboring guerrilla fighters.
She fully supported Augusto Pinochet and his disgusting disctatoship in Chile. In his time over 2000 people who spoke againts him were killed, 31,947 tortured and 1500 approx exiled. The man was a war criminal asnd she had him over on a state visit!
She supported other leaders in South America and coups and not to mention her son Marks involvent in the plot to overthrow a government.
People who want to admire the lady, well admire away. But at least be honest with the facts on her. All all those who say she has a family and nobody should speak ill of her. Well all the people who dies in SA young ahd families, all those people in Chile had fmailies and all those young boys on the Belgrano had families too.
I agree with you about Chile, her support for dictatorship was very disappointing. She had the view that if you were a communist it was your own fault for ending up in Pinochet's torture chamber, as such there was a bit of a lack of humanity there. It also had the effect of making her look like a hypocrite when she talked of the rule of law in NI.
snowlynx: I agree with you about Chile, her support for dictatorship was very disappointing. She had the view that if you were a communist it was your own fault for ending up in Pinochet's torture chamber, as such there was a bit of a lack of humanity there. It also had the effect of making her look like a hypocrite when she talked of the rule of law in NI.
C'mon Snow. Is disappointing a strong enoough word. Firtsly the man was not elected. He was a distator. Secondly he killed as many as the IRA and tortured many more.
And what about her support for the SA government in the 80's? Nobody mentions that. She considers Mandella a terrorits and the ANC all terorists.
The UK papers today are full of didgy arms deals signed by her that her son Mark made millions being the middle man.
I could go on all day. In my opinion she was not a character to be admired for any reason. I wont call her any manes as others have done. But I certainly wont talk well of her just because she passed away.
It is not a selective account you quizling..it's all fact..!! I notice you could not dispute any of the facts that I raised..The like's of you still cow tow to the Brits..Mourning a war monger who visited heaps of misery on the citizens of your own country..Hang your head in shame..!!!
thepooka: It is not a selective account you quizling..it's all fact..!! I notice you could not dispute any of the facts that I raised..The like's of you still cow tow to the Brits..Mourning a war monger who visited heaps of misery on the citizens of your own country..Hang your head in shame..!!!
i see
so we should be grabbing our pitchforks & firing shotguns in the air, shouting brits out at everyone
WadeWilson: i see
so we should be grabbing our pitchforks & firing shotguns in the air, shouting brits out at everyone
so we should be grabbing our pitchforks & firing shotguns in the air, shouting brits out at everyone
Of course not. But if you are going to say you admire the woman surely you have to be honest with yourself about what she stood for and the leaders of the world she supported.
WadeWilson: i see
so we should be grabbing our pitchforks & firing shotguns in the air, shouting brits out at everyone
so we should be grabbing our pitchforks & firing shotguns in the air, shouting brits out at everyone
why the hysteria..just shout it at those it concerns..
and no i dont agree with pitchforks...looking like gimpy farmers is what gets ya invaded..remember!!
..
We always knew the day she died would cause a rift..the same rift she caused in power..the capitalists versus the socialists..
shes gone now...but her policies are alive n kicking in our own country...we are allowing our own elected rule us..cos the majority are up their own arses..
no one learns..
fifitheminx: why the hysteria..just shout it at those it concerns..
and no i dont agree with pitchforks...looking like gimpy farmers is what gets ya invaded..remember!!
and no i dont agree with pitchforks...looking like gimpy farmers is what gets ya invaded..remember!!
forgot to add these dudes here..>>
thepooka: It is not a selective account you quizling..it's all fact..!! I notice you could not dispute any of the facts that I raised..The like's of you still cow tow to the Brits..Mourning a war monger who visited heaps of misery on the citizens of your own country..Hang your head in shame..!!!
She didn't cause misery for anyone living in this country.
sofarsogood74: C'mon Snow. Is disappointing a strong enoough word. Firtsly the man was not elected. He was a distator. Secondly he killed as many as the IRA and tortured many more.
And what about her support for the SA government in the 80's? Nobody mentions that. She considers Mandella a terrorits and the ANC all terorists.
The UK papers today are full of didgy arms deals signed by her that her son Mark made millions being the middle man.
I could go on all day. In my opinion she was not a character to be admired for any reason. I wont call her any manes as others have done. But I certainly wont talk well of her just because she passed away.
And what about her support for the SA government in the 80's? Nobody mentions that. She considers Mandella a terrorits and the ANC all terorists.
The UK papers today are full of didgy arms deals signed by her that her son Mark made millions being the middle man.
I could go on all day. In my opinion she was not a character to be admired for any reason. I wont call her any manes as others have done. But I certainly wont talk well of her just because she passed away.
Yeah, fair enough....I accept all those points.
snowlynx: She didn't cause misery for anyone living in this country.
Maybe not. But you did say we should be thankfull to her. I dont see why to be honest.
But she did cause hardship for many in the UK and N. Ireland. She also had no problem supporting dictators who tortured and murdered and also the SA government of the 80's.
Admire her all you want but please be honest about the sort of leader you're admiring.
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Funny but that's the attitude of lot's of Irish people had in the aftermath of 1916...But today salute them as hereo's..
Glatlol..explain..You say very different things.
I dont have to explain anything to you. As far as I am concerned the hunger strikers were terrorists who tried to use the "political" card in prison.