Should special ed kids be in the same class with regular and gifted kids? (32)
Another effect of the policy of students not having to repeat the year leaves many of them not caring about their grades. In an effort to cater to everybody's ability and needs, it seems that they're doing a disservice because they're graduating kids who will not be able to compete in the job market. That last sentence is m.o.
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Nidifugous: The state of Hamburg, Germany legislated a new education concept. Just saw a docu on this.
Children with special needs/learning disabilities of varying degree are integrated in the regular classroom. Moreover, kids no longer have to repeat a year if they get failing grades. The docu I watched showed the challenges that this brings to the teachers (showed the actual classroom workings).
I should say that Germany has a three-tiered school system that tracks kids after age 10 and thus pretty much determines the future of the kid. Changes can be made later, but it's hard.
The docu basically showed that this new concept brings down the performance of the entire class because more resources have to be devoted to the special ed kids (time, double tests) and the learning objectives aren't met. Kids with normal or gifted abilities are bored and just slug around, disinterested.
The teachers say that it's a grand idea on paper, but they neither have the time, money and resources to cater to such a great intellectual diversity in the classroom.
Do you think that a combined classroom is the way to go? or should there be separate schools for special ed and separate courses for gifted kids?
Children with special needs/learning disabilities of varying degree are integrated in the regular classroom. Moreover, kids no longer have to repeat a year if they get failing grades. The docu I watched showed the challenges that this brings to the teachers (showed the actual classroom workings).
I should say that Germany has a three-tiered school system that tracks kids after age 10 and thus pretty much determines the future of the kid. Changes can be made later, but it's hard.
The docu basically showed that this new concept brings down the performance of the entire class because more resources have to be devoted to the special ed kids (time, double tests) and the learning objectives aren't met. Kids with normal or gifted abilities are bored and just slug around, disinterested.
The teachers say that it's a grand idea on paper, but they neither have the time, money and resources to cater to such a great intellectual diversity in the classroom.
Do you think that a combined classroom is the way to go? or should there be separate schools for special ed and separate courses for gifted kids?
HI Nidi,
I think it's not a good idea.Looking at the three tiered system in Germany, about 30 years ago something could get out of you if you went to Hauptschule. No one wants to send their kids there these days as it's more off a "keep the kids of the street" holding pen than kids actually getting a qualification.
I was around when the "Gesamtschule" was brought in, which put all 3 school systems together and if a kid is good enough, it can on doing his leaving cert. It still has the name that it's easier on a school like this to get the leaving than if you go to a gymnasium.
Unfortunately no one goes to school because it's so much fun, but to learn something and get an adequate education. Parents wanting an alternative way of teaching often send their kids to a Montessori school. I would also question if a kid with learning disabilities has any advantages being schooled with kids who grasp thinks a lot easier.
I saw kids who struggled being send to a special needs school and they actually did a lot better. Teachers know how to best teach these kids and class room sizes are often smaller.
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In America, I graduated from high school. I admit I have a learning disability! The difference was for me, was high learning and those who can cope with limited assistance. I was near main stream classes, depends on the level of the child or the teen adult. I think it is a good idea, how else will they learn something "new" without adapting and try it out to see how they like it, they might learn a lot more if they did try out the new classes. Course this was almost 20 years ago, next year will be 20 years since I was in High school.
The younger generation, of those who has a learning disability. Are becoming VERY smart for their age if they are 18 or younger, when I was 18 I didn't think of ONE scholarship or anything. THAT I regret, I should have done that...
The younger generation, of those who has a learning disability. Are becoming VERY smart for their age if they are 18 or younger, when I was 18 I didn't think of ONE scholarship or anything. THAT I regret, I should have done that...
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KNenagh: HI Nidi, I think it's not a good idea.
Looking at the three tiered system in Germany, about 30 years ago something could get out of you if you went to Hauptschule. No one wants to send their kids there these days as it's more off a "keep the kids of the street" holding pen than kids actually getting a qualification.
I was around when the "Gesamtschule" was brought in, which put all 3 school systems together and if a kid is good enough, it can on doing his leaving cert. It still has the name that it's easier on a school like this to get the leaving than if you go to a gymnasium.
Unfortunately no one goes to school because it's so much fun, but to learn something and get an adequate education. Parents wanting an alternative way of teaching often send their kids to a Montessori school. I would also question if a kid with learning disabilities has any advantages being schooled with kids who grasp thinks a lot easier.
I saw kids who struggled being send to a special needs school and they actually did a lot better. Teachers know how to best teach these kids and class room sizes are often smaller.
Looking at the three tiered system in Germany, about 30 years ago something could get out of you if you went to Hauptschule. No one wants to send their kids there these days as it's more off a "keep the kids of the street" holding pen than kids actually getting a qualification.
I was around when the "Gesamtschule" was brought in, which put all 3 school systems together and if a kid is good enough, it can on doing his leaving cert. It still has the name that it's easier on a school like this to get the leaving than if you go to a gymnasium.
Unfortunately no one goes to school because it's so much fun, but to learn something and get an adequate education. Parents wanting an alternative way of teaching often send their kids to a Montessori school. I would also question if a kid with learning disabilities has any advantages being schooled with kids who grasp thinks a lot easier.
I saw kids who struggled being send to a special needs school and they actually did a lot better. Teachers know how to best teach these kids and class room sizes are often smaller.
In a nutshell, that's my opinion also. I think that while it may sound good in theory to integrate kids with different needs, it strikes me as an impossible feat in practice and all kids involved are somehow shortchanged in the process. Not a single group gets fully what they need.
I went through the traditional system in Rh-land/Pfalz where they implemented the Gesamtschule as an option when I was in 7th grade and you are spot on when you say that rumor had it that those kids who were sent there got their certificate easier than the rest of us. I don't know whether it's true, but that was what was said.
Yes, Hauptschule was pretty much the kiss of death. My girlfriend next door went there and one day, I skipped classes and went with her to class. They were 2-3 years behind us. One thing I didn't see in the docu was the type of school where they filmed. Somehow I don't think it was one of the traditional schools.
I recall them implementing a 10th year for those kids and called it Berufsvorbereitende Schule to keep the kids who couldn't find an apprentice position off the street. Did you ever see the Pisa results?
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MBT77: In America, I graduated from high school. I admit I have a learning disability! The difference was for me, was high learning and those who can cope with limited assistance. I was near main stream classes, depends on the level of the child or the teen adult. I think it is a good idea, how else will they learn something "new" without adapting and try it out to see how they like it, they might learn a lot more if they did try out the new classes. Course this was almost 20 years ago, next year will be 20 years since I was in High school.
The younger generation, of those who has a learning disability. Are becoming VERY smart for their age if they are 18 or younger, when I was 18 I didn't think of ONE scholarship or anything. THAT I regret, I should have done that...
The younger generation, of those who has a learning disability. Are becoming VERY smart for their age if they are 18 or younger, when I was 18 I didn't think of ONE scholarship or anything. THAT I regret, I should have done that...
When you went to school with a learning disability, did the teachers give you less difficult tests or spend more time with you to make sure you learn the material or were you left to your own devices?
I guess much depends on the degree of the learning disability. I think that in special schools, they can challenge the kids and introduce them to mainstream material, but the teachers there are specially trained to deal with the different disabilities and can accommodate the students better. Moreover, I like to think that the kids aren't exposed to bullying or ridicule from other students. You know how it is. Some kids can be really brutal.
Yes, some kids with disability are very smart and in some cases smarter than average (esp. autistic students and Aspbergers kids).
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My daughter is 10 years old, she was 3 years in primary school and is now in high school (jumped grade 4 and is gifted), and I just asked her how it was for her in primary school.
She was in a so called cooperative class. They were 24 pupils, 12 of the pupils were cooperative kids with mental and physical disabilities.
We parents could decide, before the first class started, if we wanted our kids to be in a cooperative class. I wanted it because I wanted her to see like me any disability not as disability.
In the lessons the class teacher was in front of the class, and two additional teachers were there in the background to help the cooperative kids when help was needed. She said it was totally okay and she didn´t have the impression that they learned at any time slower than the other classes.
She was in a so called cooperative class. They were 24 pupils, 12 of the pupils were cooperative kids with mental and physical disabilities.
We parents could decide, before the first class started, if we wanted our kids to be in a cooperative class. I wanted it because I wanted her to see like me any disability not as disability.
In the lessons the class teacher was in front of the class, and two additional teachers were there in the background to help the cooperative kids when help was needed. She said it was totally okay and she didn´t have the impression that they learned at any time slower than the other classes.
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COMBINED!! So, so, so MUCH more to be gained this route!
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MBT77: In America, I graduated from high school. I admit I have a learning disability! The difference was for me, was high learning and those who can cope with limited assistance. I was near main stream classes, depends on the level of the child or the teen adult. I think it is a good idea, how else will they learn something "new" without adapting and try it out to see how they like it, they might learn a lot more if they did try out the new classes. Course this was almost 20 years ago, next year will be 20 years since I was in High school.
The younger generation, of those who has a learning disability. Are becoming VERY smart for their age if they are 18 or younger, when I was 18 I didn't think of ONE scholarship or anything. THAT I regret, I should have done that...
The younger generation, of those who has a learning disability. Are becoming VERY smart for their age if they are 18 or younger, when I was 18 I didn't think of ONE scholarship or anything. THAT I regret, I should have done that...
I agree with you MB that the disabled should be in the same classroom as other kids. Apparently it inspired creativity for you because you are now an artist. How about showing some of your art in your photo profile. Being in a regular classroom encourages the disabled to work harder for better grades. In today's world, kids are so much smarter then when I was in school. However on the negative side I do worry that the disabled will be bullied.
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Nidifugous: The state of Hamburg, Germany legislated a new education concept. Just saw a docu on this.
Children with special needs/learning disabilities of varying degree are integrated in the regular classroom. Moreover, kids no longer have to repeat a year if they get failing grades. The docu I watched showed the challenges that this brings to the teachers (showed the actual classroom workings).
I should say that Germany has a three-tiered school system that tracks kids after age 10 and thus pretty much determines the future of the kid. Changes can be made later, but it's hard.
The docu basically showed that this new concept brings down the performance of the entire class because more resources have to be devoted to the special ed kids (time, double tests) and the learning objectives aren't met. Kids with normal or gifted abilities are bored and just slug around, disinterested.
The teachers say that it's a grand idea on paper, but they neither have the time, money and resources to cater to such a great intellectual diversity in the classroom.
Do you think that a combined classroom is the way to go? or should there be separate schools for special ed and separate courses for gifted kids?
Wow, does this ever bring back some memories and observations regarding the entire corporation surrounding developmentally disabled citizens. In the 1980's, public schools were mandated to integrate classrooms to the fullest meaning of that application. Cost was not allowed to be considered; the mandate was supreme. So, classrooms became, in many instances, hospital and/or nursing home wards, with near comatose students being wheeled in on gurneys to be babysat by LPN's and teaching assistants. Feeding them lunch could often take three hours. Other programs were dropped in favor of the the mandated rule, angering many parents of mainstream kids. Sports took a deep dive, especially at the middle school level. In their efforts to be fair to the MRDD kids, the systems became increasingly unfair, to the max, at that, to the mainstream kids. It was a good idea gone haywire. Here is how it could best be accomplished: Have special education teachers, as in the fifties, in classrooms designed for that educational structure, but have mainstream kids come in for a part of their class time to help, coach, etc...Have the MRDD kids integrate the mainstream classroom for short periods, but not in such a way as to disrupt the overall routine of the classroom plan for those students. For years, I heard over and over, about the rights needing to be the same for MRDD as anyone else. Nowhere did I ever see or read or hear that the rights were to be better, or to eliminate the educational rights of the others, but that's what has happened.Children with special needs/learning disabilities of varying degree are integrated in the regular classroom. Moreover, kids no longer have to repeat a year if they get failing grades. The docu I watched showed the challenges that this brings to the teachers (showed the actual classroom workings).
I should say that Germany has a three-tiered school system that tracks kids after age 10 and thus pretty much determines the future of the kid. Changes can be made later, but it's hard.
The docu basically showed that this new concept brings down the performance of the entire class because more resources have to be devoted to the special ed kids (time, double tests) and the learning objectives aren't met. Kids with normal or gifted abilities are bored and just slug around, disinterested.
The teachers say that it's a grand idea on paper, but they neither have the time, money and resources to cater to such a great intellectual diversity in the classroom.
Do you think that a combined classroom is the way to go? or should there be separate schools for special ed and separate courses for gifted kids?
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Innocentia00122: My daughter is 10 years old, she was 3 years in primary school and is now in high school (jumped grade 4 and is gifted), and I just asked her how it was for her in primary school.
She was in a so called cooperative class. They were 24 pupils, 12 of the pupils were cooperative kids with mental and physical disabilities.
We parents could decide, before the first class started, if we wanted our kids to be in a cooperative class. I wanted it because I wanted her to see like me any disability not as disability.
In the lessons the class teacher was in front of the class, and two additional teachers were there in the background to help the cooperative kids when help was needed. She said it was totally okay and she didn´t have the impression that they learned at any time slower than the other classes.
She was in a so called cooperative class. They were 24 pupils, 12 of the pupils were cooperative kids with mental and physical disabilities.
We parents could decide, before the first class started, if we wanted our kids to be in a cooperative class. I wanted it because I wanted her to see like me any disability not as disability.
In the lessons the class teacher was in front of the class, and two additional teachers were there in the background to help the cooperative kids when help was needed. She said it was totally okay and she didn´t have the impression that they learned at any time slower than the other classes.
I'm so glad you posted this because there's a big difference between how they worked it in your daughters class vs in the one shown in the docu in Hamburg.
In Hamburg, they had one teacher, 20 kids and of those, 6 were special needs kids. No assistants, no help. The teacher had to spend a disproportionate amount of time with the special needs kids. Two kids just couldn't/wouldn't do the assignments unless the teacher was there guiding them.
So my argument is that yes, great idea if the resources are there and if, as they did in your case, they make the staff available to make it a success. Apparently Hamburg put the horse before the chart and didn't allocate the resources.
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Da_Moose: COMBINED!! So, so, so MUCH more to be gained this route!
How are they working it in Canada?
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rohaan: Wow, does this ever bring back some memories and observations regarding the entire corporation surrounding developmentally disabled citizens. In the 1980's, public schools were mandated to integrate classrooms to the fullest meaning of that application. Cost was not allowed to be considered; the mandate was supreme. So, classrooms became, in many instances, hospital and/or nursing home wards, with near comatose students being wheeled in on gurneys to be babysat by LPN's and teaching assistants. Feeding them lunch could often take three hours. Other programs were dropped in favor of the the mandated rule, angering many parents of mainstream kids. Sports took a deep dive, especially at the middle school level. In their efforts to be fair to the MRDD kids, the systems became increasingly unfair, to the max, at that, to the mainstream kids. It was a good idea gone haywire. Here is how it could best be accomplished: Have special education teachers, as in the fifties, in classrooms designed for that educational structure, but have mainstream kids come in for a part of their class time to help, coach, etc...Have the MRDD kids integrate the mainstream classroom for short periods, but not in such a way as to disrupt the overall routine of the classroom plan for those students. For years, I heard over and over, about the rights needing to be the same for MRDD as anyone else. Nowhere did I ever see or read or hear that the rights were to be better, or to eliminate the educational rights of the others, but that's what has happened.
Wow, what a story. I've seen this "head through the wall" approach many times, but I had no idea that that is what they did in OR. By the way, was this a state-wide mandate in OR? I don't recall seeing or hearing anything in NJ. Well, when my son was in school it wasn't done as I recall.
Your point is well taken though. You cannot implement a program to create equality to the detriment of another group. That misses the mark entirely. So what happened in the end?
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Nidifugous: Wow, what a story. I've seen this "head through the wall" approach many times, but I had no idea that that is what they did in OR. By the way, was this a state-wide mandate in OR? I don't recall seeing or hearing anything in NJ. Well, when my son was in school it wasn't done as I recall.
Your point is well taken though. You cannot implement a program to create equality to the detriment of another group. That misses the mark entirely. So what happened in the end?
I don't have the answer to that. At that time, I was working full time as a medical assistant/pharmacy technician, and part-time for a school district while taking upperclass courses for a degree in education. Because I was making considerably more money on the associate's degree, and had, by that time, become jaded with teaching, I advanced in the medical field instead. It was my understanding that the mandate was national, but it may have been for individual states to decide. There is quite a bit of difference in how schools, group homes, foster homes, day-camps and the like implement programs, so that tells me there must be room for variation. I do know that the programs are tightly monitored, and offenses are dealt with swiftly and severely. I believe it must be extremely difficult to be a teacher, classroom assistant, administrator, group home manager, skill trainer, whatever, in that industry.Your point is well taken though. You cannot implement a program to create equality to the detriment of another group. That misses the mark entirely. So what happened in the end?
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An Aunt on mom's side retired from being a special education teacher in High School. More individual attention is given and lessons are gone-over-and-over, until the student gets it, or catches on to the subject and are tested more exclusively to a high school level, without adding any precollege questions at all on the tests... Taking my breath away here, thinking back. I was so burned-out after Junior High school, no band, no chorus, no sports, no clubs. Just get me the hell in and get me the hell out. I was sort-of Gothic by graduation in 1983... Yes, separate classes are needed, so that students in need, won't be left behind.
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rohaan: I don't have the answer to that. At that time, I was working full time as a medical assistant/pharmacy technician, and part-time for a school district while taking upperclass courses for a degree in education. Because I was making considerably more money on the associate's degree, and had, by that time, become jaded with teaching, I advanced in the medical field instead. It was my understanding that the mandate was national, but it may have been for individual states to decide. There is quite a bit of difference in how schools, group homes, foster homes, day-camps and the like implement programs, so that tells me there must be room for variation. I do know that the programs are tightly monitored, and offenses are dealt with swiftly and severely. I believe it must be extremely difficult to be a teacher, classroom assistant, administrator, group home manager, skill trainer, whatever, in that industry.
Yes, what about the needs of the really bright student, why should they be held back because someone else is unfortunate.
These are the children who will be our scientists and engineers and doctors of the fiture.
Lets drop the political correctness and nurture our bright students like they do in so many eastern countries.
Life is not fair and we are not all equal, so encourage our talent or lose it.
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Nidifugous: In a nutshell, that's my opinion also. I think that while it may sound good in theory to integrate kids with different needs, it strikes me as an impossible feat in practice and all kids involved are somehow shortchanged in the process. Not a single group gets fully what they need.
I went through the traditional system in Rh-land/Pfalz where they implemented the Gesamtschule as an option when I was in 7th grade and you are spot on when you say that rumor had it that those kids who were sent there got their certificate easier than the rest of us. I don't know whether it's true, but that was what was said.
Yes, Hauptschule was pretty much the kiss of death. My girlfriend next door went there and one day, I skipped classes and went with her to class. They were 2-3 years behind us. One thing I didn't see in the docu was the type of school where they filmed. Somehow I don't think it was one of the traditional schools.
I recall them implementing a 10th year for those kids and called it Berufsvorbereitende Schule to keep the kids who couldn't find an apprentice position off the street. Did you ever see the Pisa results?
I went through the traditional system in Rh-land/Pfalz where they implemented the Gesamtschule as an option when I was in 7th grade and you are spot on when you say that rumor had it that those kids who were sent there got their certificate easier than the rest of us. I don't know whether it's true, but that was what was said.
Yes, Hauptschule was pretty much the kiss of death. My girlfriend next door went there and one day, I skipped classes and went with her to class. They were 2-3 years behind us. One thing I didn't see in the docu was the type of school where they filmed. Somehow I don't think it was one of the traditional schools.
I recall them implementing a 10th year for those kids and called it Berufsvorbereitende Schule to keep the kids who couldn't find an apprentice position off the street. Did you ever see the Pisa results?
Yes, the Pisa results were a fair wake up call. I do like the "2. Berufsweg", that means that kids who weren't doing well a school can go back later in life and study part time - let it be for their leaving cert or any other field of study they want. (my brother did that - he want to the Hauptschule, became a mechanic, went back to do his leaving (technical field) and studied engineering at the Hochschule - he has a really good job he likes in that field now).
I actually think that more support is needed - especially in the field of integration and learning the language for migrants so that the kids are not left behind and get a good chance for a job as well as kids who need more help studying. Support should be more specifically though - I think special courses are probably the better option than lugging everyone together.
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I respect those children or people who are less gifted or even 'special'... to all the people who are arrogant as to how intelligent they are...be careful...It can only take one head injury to also become 'special' and if you are in the position to ever become a parent or grand parent... be thankful for having what you have... as this can change with a blink of the eye...
Our patience and giving in life is not tested with gifted people (there our own intelligence is tested), it is tested with the weakest one...
We have a role to play in society ensuring the weakest one is also able to fit into society and will be able to be economic active (the economy of every country would benefit from this and 'special' could have various definitions)... It just makes sense...thus with children with special needs...The educational focus will be different with them...so separate...
Our patience and giving in life is not tested with gifted people (there our own intelligence is tested), it is tested with the weakest one...
We have a role to play in society ensuring the weakest one is also able to fit into society and will be able to be economic active (the economy of every country would benefit from this and 'special' could have various definitions)... It just makes sense...thus with children with special needs...The educational focus will be different with them...so separate...
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KNenagh: Yes, the Pisa results were a fair wake up call. I do like the "2. Berufsweg", that means that kids who weren't doing well a school can go back later in life and study part time - let it be for their leaving cert or any other field of study they want. (my brother did that - he want to the Hauptschule, became a mechanic, went back to do his leaving (technical field) and studied engineering at the Hochschule - he has a really good job he likes in that field now).
I actually think that more support is needed - especially in the field of integration and learning the language for migrants so that the kids are not left behind and get a good chance for a job as well as kids who need more help studying. Support should be more specifically though - I think special courses are probably the better option than lugging everyone together.
Oh so great, thanks. Caused me to remember the old school days. I did have to go to summer school twice, to increase scores for passing a grade. I actually think that more support is needed - especially in the field of integration and learning the language for migrants so that the kids are not left behind and get a good chance for a job as well as kids who need more help studying. Support should be more specifically though - I think special courses are probably the better option than lugging everyone together.
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LonelyfromAfrica: I respect those children or people who are less gifted or even 'special'... to all the people who are arrogant as to how intelligent they are...be careful...It can only take one head injury to also become 'special' and if you are in the position to ever become a parent or grand parent... be thankful for having what you have... as this can change with a blink of the eye...
Our patience and giving in life is not tested with gifted people (there our own intelligence is tested), it is tested with the weakest one...
We have a role to play in society ensuring the weakest one is also able to fit into society and will be able to be economic active (the economy of every country would benefit from this and 'special' could have various definitions)... It just makes sense...thus with children with special needs...The educational focus will be different with them...so separate...
Our patience and giving in life is not tested with gifted people (there our own intelligence is tested), it is tested with the weakest one...
We have a role to play in society ensuring the weakest one is also able to fit into society and will be able to be economic active (the economy of every country would benefit from this and 'special' could have various definitions)... It just makes sense...thus with children with special needs...The educational focus will be different with them...so separate...
I disagree with you, our bright young people are our future.
I'm sorry if you had a head injury which caused you to become disabled.
But this does not alter the fact talent should be rewarded, for the good of society.
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Children with special needs/learning disabilities of varying degree are integrated in the regular classroom. Moreover, kids no longer have to repeat a year if they get failing grades. The docu I watched showed the challenges that this brings to the teachers (showed the actual classroom workings).
I should say that Germany has a three-tiered school system that tracks kids after age 10 and thus pretty much determines the future of the kid. Changes can be made later, but it's hard.
The docu basically showed that this new concept brings down the performance of the entire class because more resources have to be devoted to the special ed kids (time, double tests) and the learning objectives aren't met. Kids with normal or gifted abilities are bored and just slug around, disinterested.
The teachers say that it's a grand idea on paper, but they neither have the time, money and resources to cater to such a great intellectual diversity in the classroom.
Do you think that a combined classroom is the way to go? or should there be separate schools for special ed and separate courses for gifted kids?