7 shots close range in the back. (268)
bodleing2: The video doesn't address the issue that this thread is really about.....seven shots in the back.
Thanks bodleing. I just wish people would read the opening post and digest what the thread is really about.
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germanspitz:
YOU KEEP STATING I'M A TROLL AND YOU DISLIKE ME SO WHY ARE YOU TROLLING ME WITH ALL THE NAME CALLING
my dear Spitz pudding is a term of enderment in the West countr, you rubbished many of my threads, but nrvrt ming you can't aee you are just attention seekingYOU KEEP STATING I'M A TROLL AND YOU DISLIKE ME SO WHY ARE YOU TROLLING ME WITH ALL THE NAME CALLING
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jac_the_gripper: I'm asking because people don't always react how they might be expected to. Sometimes people are 'shocked into silence', are confused by extreme events, or even go into 'sensible overdrive'.
In the video of the fatal shooting of Philando Castile after being stopped for a broken tail light, his girlfriend Diamond Reynolds remains calm, videos the post-shooting incident and doesn't skip a yes sir/no sir despite Castile passing away next to her and having the gun pointed towards her. Philando Castile had declared he had a licensed gun and was following instructions to get his ID when he was shot. Reynolds doesn't break down until she is out of the car and handcuffed. Her (pre-school age?) daughter attempts to emotionally support her by saying, "It's okay, mommy" and "It's okay, I'm right here with you."
In the video of the fatal shooting of Michael Ramos which may have been sparked by a bogus emergency call, Ramos appears afraid and confused by 8 armed officers yelling instructions at him. Initially compliant, he gradually manoeuvres himself behind the car door so he has a barrier between himself and the armed police. He appears to struggle to maintain a standing position with his arms in the air, begins to buckle with fear and uses the car door for support. When he is shot, he leaps into the car in a bid to escape his attackers, but is gunned down.
Secretagent posted a link to the fatal shooting of Daniel Shaver where he attempted to comply with numerous contradictory instructions before he was fatally shot.
There are different races of people involved in these cases and there is perhaps something(s) fundamentally wrong with the way these high emotion situations are carried out, but perhaps race does need to addressed.
I appreciate that the 'yes sir/no sir' etiquette in the US is not culture specific, but I can't help thinking polite compliance and obeisance must feel uniquely humiliating and frightening for black American people when faced with white, irrational authority. I also question how much trust there is in that being an effective survival strategy given the history of America.
How people react to life threatening attacks, or perceived life threatening attacks will vary from individual to individual. That's true of the police officers, citizens involved in serious criminal activity and citizens going about their ordinary lives, with, or without minor infractions.
Clearly, the root issue is the incidence of these high stakes situations. How is it that in the US a broken tail light can lead to guns being drawn? It begs the question whether the right to bear arms as a means of self-protection is, on a practical level, the right for some people to bear arms whereby everyone is in danger of unwitting suicide.
Hi Jac,In the video of the fatal shooting of Philando Castile after being stopped for a broken tail light, his girlfriend Diamond Reynolds remains calm, videos the post-shooting incident and doesn't skip a yes sir/no sir despite Castile passing away next to her and having the gun pointed towards her. Philando Castile had declared he had a licensed gun and was following instructions to get his ID when he was shot. Reynolds doesn't break down until she is out of the car and handcuffed. Her (pre-school age?) daughter attempts to emotionally support her by saying, "It's okay, mommy" and "It's okay, I'm right here with you."
In the video of the fatal shooting of Michael Ramos which may have been sparked by a bogus emergency call, Ramos appears afraid and confused by 8 armed officers yelling instructions at him. Initially compliant, he gradually manoeuvres himself behind the car door so he has a barrier between himself and the armed police. He appears to struggle to maintain a standing position with his arms in the air, begins to buckle with fear and uses the car door for support. When he is shot, he leaps into the car in a bid to escape his attackers, but is gunned down.
Secretagent posted a link to the fatal shooting of Daniel Shaver where he attempted to comply with numerous contradictory instructions before he was fatally shot.
There are different races of people involved in these cases and there is perhaps something(s) fundamentally wrong with the way these high emotion situations are carried out, but perhaps race does need to addressed.
I appreciate that the 'yes sir/no sir' etiquette in the US is not culture specific, but I can't help thinking polite compliance and obeisance must feel uniquely humiliating and frightening for black American people when faced with white, irrational authority. I also question how much trust there is in that being an effective survival strategy given the history of America.
How people react to life threatening attacks, or perceived life threatening attacks will vary from individual to individual. That's true of the police officers, citizens involved in serious criminal activity and citizens going about their ordinary lives, with, or without minor infractions.
Clearly, the root issue is the incidence of these high stakes situations. How is it that in the US a broken tail light can lead to guns being drawn? It begs the question whether the right to bear arms as a means of self-protection is, on a practical level, the right for some people to bear arms whereby everyone is in danger of unwitting suicide.
Secretagent raised a good point on post 88 re the case of Amadou Diallo in 1999. 41 shots fired of which 19 hit the target namely Amadou when he was reaching for his Identity Card outside his home.
As in all cases it's easier to be wise after the event but for some that comes too late.
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germanspitz: Thanks bodleing.
I just wish people would read the opening post and digest what the thread is really about.
In fairness the video does present a good argument as to why a firearm was used.I just wish people would read the opening post and digest what the thread is really about.
However, there's no reference to the excessive number of rounds deployed even though the video is quite long.
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germanspitz: Hi Jac,
Secretagent raised a good point on post 88 re the case of Amadou Diallo in 1999. 41 shots fired of which 19 hit the target namely Amadou when he was reaching for his Identity Card outside his home.
As in all cases it's easier to be wise after the event but for some that comes too late.
exactlySecretagent raised a good point on post 88 re the case of Amadou Diallo in 1999. 41 shots fired of which 19 hit the target namely Amadou when he was reaching for his Identity Card outside his home.
As in all cases it's easier to be wise after the event but for some that comes too late.
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jac_the_gripper: That comes back to how individuals react to perceived threat.
Assuming that racial issues are generally more subtle than white officers murdering black citizens because they can, it's likely the officer perceived a danger so great to himself that he felt it necessary to keep shooting until he no longer felt threatened.
For as long as these scenarios exist, you will have some officers reacting irrationally through fear. Sometimes that fear will have a racial element.
One can argue for better selection and training of police officers, but you will always have an unpredictable element to these scenarios because of the high levels of pressure and emotions.
It's absolutely despicable to witness a man being shot like this, but is it reasonable to expect police officers, or citizens to negotiate an impossible cultural norm perfectly?
This is also my assessment of the situation, sorry to agree with you JacAssuming that racial issues are generally more subtle than white officers murdering black citizens because they can, it's likely the officer perceived a danger so great to himself that he felt it necessary to keep shooting until he no longer felt threatened.
For as long as these scenarios exist, you will have some officers reacting irrationally through fear. Sometimes that fear will have a racial element.
One can argue for better selection and training of police officers, but you will always have an unpredictable element to these scenarios because of the high levels of pressure and emotions.
It's absolutely despicable to witness a man being shot like this, but is it reasonable to expect police officers, or citizens to negotiate an impossible cultural norm perfectly?
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jac_the_gripper: That comes back to how individuals react to perceived threat.
Assuming that racial issues are generally more subtle than white officers murdering black citizens because they can, it's likely the officer perceived a danger so great to himself that he felt it necessary to keep shooting until he no longer felt threatened.
For as long as these scenarios exist, you will have some officers reacting irrationally through fear. Sometimes that fear will have a racial element.
One can argue for better selection and training of police officers, but you will always have an unpredictable element to these scenarios because of the high levels of pressure and emotions.
It's absolutely despicable to witness a man being shot like this, but is it reasonable to expect police officers, or citizens to negotiate an impossible cultural norm perfectly?
Whatever was going through the Officer's mind is know only to him in the split second that he opened fire.Assuming that racial issues are generally more subtle than white officers murdering black citizens because they can, it's likely the officer perceived a danger so great to himself that he felt it necessary to keep shooting until he no longer felt threatened.
For as long as these scenarios exist, you will have some officers reacting irrationally through fear. Sometimes that fear will have a racial element.
One can argue for better selection and training of police officers, but you will always have an unpredictable element to these scenarios because of the high levels of pressure and emotions.
It's absolutely despicable to witness a man being shot like this, but is it reasonable to expect police officers, or citizens to negotiate an impossible cultural norm perfectly?
Are we now turning into a culture of "Shoot first and ask questions later" providing of course that the suspect lives long enough to state his case.
We will always have criminals and of course we need a Police Force to protect us ,but there seems to be no common ground as to what defines reasonable force these days when making a citizens' arrest.
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A wounded man can still cut, or shoot you, or the ones around you...
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mikey4691: A wounded man can still cut, or shoot you, or the ones around you...
True Mikey and I'm actually not defending the suspect, just 7 bullets seems an inordinate amount of ammo to bring a man down, especially the position he was in at the time. The policemen could actually have slammed the car door on him from what I could see.
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first of all the man resisted which is a no no. he did have a warrant out for him. he did have a knife in his hand. he went into his car, the officer did not know what he may pull out of his car. could of had a gun who knows. the officer only has a split second to react. why he fired seven shots who knows maybe fear for his life don't know. it is a tough job. if the man just would of complied he would not be in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.
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stringman: first of all the man resisted which is a no no. he did have a warrant out for him. he did have a knife in his hand. he went into his car, the officer did not know what he may pull out of his car. could of had a gun who knows. the officer only has a split second to react. why he fired seven shots who knows maybe fear for his life don't know. it is a tough job. if the man just would of complied he would not be in a wheel chair for the rest of his life.
All true Stringman and we don't know what was going through the suspect's head when he walked away to his car. Was he concerned about his own safety, maybe his kids safety knowing what has happened in the past when black or white men get arrested.------ This thread is Archived ------
jac_the_gripper: That comes back to how individuals react to perceived threat.
Assuming that racial issues are generally more subtle than white officers murdering black citizens because they can, it's likely the officer perceived a danger so great to himself that he felt it necessary to keep shooting until he no longer felt threatened.
For as long as these scenarios exist, you will have some officers reacting irrationally through fear. Sometimes that fear will have a racial element.
One can argue for better selection and training of police officers, but you will always have an unpredictable element to these scenarios because of the high levels of pressure and emotions.
It's absolutely despicable to witness a man being shot like this, but is it reasonable to expect police officers, or citizens to negotiate an impossible cultural norm perfectly?
That maybe true, but it shouldn't be used to negate culpability in this particular case imo.Assuming that racial issues are generally more subtle than white officers murdering black citizens because they can, it's likely the officer perceived a danger so great to himself that he felt it necessary to keep shooting until he no longer felt threatened.
For as long as these scenarios exist, you will have some officers reacting irrationally through fear. Sometimes that fear will have a racial element.
One can argue for better selection and training of police officers, but you will always have an unpredictable element to these scenarios because of the high levels of pressure and emotions.
It's absolutely despicable to witness a man being shot like this, but is it reasonable to expect police officers, or citizens to negotiate an impossible cultural norm perfectly?
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It's one more thug off the street.. Take down the ones burning our cities now..
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mikey4691: It's one more thug off the street.. Take down the ones burning our cities now..
Don't get me started on Financial crime then Mikey . Who gets to deal with those villains. 
The World will always have criminals, nothing new ,but it is getting out of hand when you have a following that jump on the band wagon and take up arms as that 17 year old did killing 2 people.
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germanspitz: Whatever was going through the Officer's mind is know only to him in the split second that he opened fire.
Are we now turning into a culture of "Shoot first and ask questions later" providing of course that the suspect lives long enough to state his case.
We will always have criminals and of course we need a Police Force to protect us ,but there seems to be no common ground as to what defines reasonable force these days when making a citizens' arrest.
One of my lecturers at uni conducted research into stereotyping. In the control group subjects were given scenarios to read followed by multiple choice questions about each scenario, some answers relying upon stereotyping.Are we now turning into a culture of "Shoot first and ask questions later" providing of course that the suspect lives long enough to state his case.
We will always have criminals and of course we need a Police Force to protect us ,but there seems to be no common ground as to what defines reasonable force these days when making a citizens' arrest.
In other variables the subjects had to simultaneously carry out arithmetical tasks of varying difficulty.
Reliance upon stereotyping when answering questions increased as the cognitive challenges increased.
In a (perceived) life threatening situation people are cognitively challenged, therefore are more likely to assess and react using stereotyping and other cognitive short cuts to decision making. You will never find common ground because each individual will use different short-cuts in their decision making processes, based upon personal experience and the fluid situation they find themselves in.
Unfortunately, these scenarios will always be assessed for justifiability after the fact. Investigations and opinions will inevitably involve bias according to which perspective an individual understands and empathises with most. We are unlikely to ever get reliable and usable feedback unless independent investigations are carried out.
I still maintain that we need to go back further and reduce the number of these situations occurring, rather than try and reduce the number that are poorly handled. Poor handling is inevitable because of the way our brains work.
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bodleing2: That maybe true, but it shouldn't be used to negate culpability in this particular case imo.
I think it should be independently investigated, but perhaps truth and reconciliation should be at least an element of the process.Severe penal consequences aren't the only means of dealing with culpability. They are perhaps not the most productive, either.
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jac_the_gripper: I think it should be independently investigated, but perhaps truth and reconciliation should be at least an element of the process.
Severe penal consequences aren't the only means of dealing with culpability. They are perhaps not the most productive, either.
I'm with you a hundred percent cent there jac, but sadly here and now society expects penal consequences for those who threaten it's questionable stability.Severe penal consequences aren't the only means of dealing with culpability. They are perhaps not the most productive, either.
Fortunately a more enlightened awareness to addressing crime and punishment is slowly gathering momentum in some parts of the world, but it's a long way off from where we are now.
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germanspitz: All true Stringman and we don't know what was going through the suspect's head when he walked away to his car. Was he concerned about his own safety, maybe his kids safety knowing what has happened in the past when black or white men get arrested.
Just try thinking of the police officer, the subct of his arrest is a criminal, armed with a killing weapon, the officder has only his stereotype assesssmant of the subject who is being uncooperative, armed maybe waiting for the chance to strike down the officer.I my opinion his safest course is to kill the suspect, bt he failed to do so even after emptying is gun into him, he was lucky he got away intact.
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bodleing2: I'm with you a hundred percent cent there jac, but sadly here and now society expects penal consequences for those who threaten it's questionable stability.
Fortunately a more enlightened awareness to addressing crime and punishment is slowly gathering momentum in some parts of the world, but it's a long way off from where we are now.
Totally agree with your last statement and sadly have to agree with you.Fortunately a more enlightened awareness to addressing crime and punishment is slowly gathering momentum in some parts of the world, but it's a long way off from where we are now.
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In the video of the fatal shooting of Philando Castile after being stopped for a broken tail light, his girlfriend Diamond Reynolds remains calm, videos the post-shooting incident and doesn't skip a yes sir/no sir despite Castile passing away next to her and having the gun pointed towards her. Philando Castile had declared he had a licensed gun and was following instructions to get his ID when he was shot. Reynolds doesn't break down until she is out of the car and handcuffed. Her (pre-school age?) daughter attempts to emotionally support her by saying, "It's okay, mommy" and "It's okay, I'm right here with you."
In the video of the fatal shooting of Michael Ramos which may have been sparked by a bogus emergency call, Ramos appears afraid and confused by 8 armed officers yelling instructions at him. Initially compliant, he gradually manoeuvres himself behind the car door so he has a barrier between himself and the armed police. He appears to struggle to maintain a standing position with his arms in the air, begins to buckle with fear and uses the car door for support. When he is shot, he leaps into the car in a bid to escape his attackers, but is gunned down.
Secretagent posted a link to the fatal shooting of Daniel Shaver where he attempted to comply with numerous contradictory instructions before he was fatally shot.
There are different races of people involved in these cases and there is perhaps something(s) fundamentally wrong with the way these high emotion situations are carried out, but perhaps race does need to addressed.
I appreciate that the 'yes sir/no sir' etiquette in the US is not culture specific, but I can't help thinking polite compliance and obeisance must feel uniquely humiliating and frightening for black American people when faced with white, irrational authority. I also question how much trust there is in that being an effective survival strategy given the history of America.
How people react to life threatening attacks, or perceived life threatening attacks will vary from individual to individual. That's true of the police officers, citizens involved in serious criminal activity and citizens going about their ordinary lives, with, or without minor infractions.
Clearly, the root issue is the incidence of these high stakes situations. How is it that in the US a broken tail light can lead to guns being drawn? It begs the question whether the right to bear arms as a means of self-protection is, on a practical level, the right for some people to bear arms whereby everyone is in danger of unwitting suicide.