do u tink people should be excutied for smuggleing drugs? (238)
Lostrebel: that will create jobs as well ....rope making is a trade right?
Perfect. A suspended sentence to suit every case!
Jan1305: As for those of you who bang on about how people should know and realise their fate when they do such things in certain countries, well that's all well and good, but not as simplistic as that. Many of these people often, in my opinion, do not truly realise the consequences of their actions, and believe they will be treated in accordance with Western law if the worst comes to the worst.
This particular man was, as far as we know, mentally ill....how many 53 year old mentally stable men would believe they could have a successful pop career in China)...or anywhere for that matter.
I am absolutely disgusted about this particular case, regardless of all the comments made in this thread about drug smuggling.
This particular man was, as far as we know, mentally ill....how many 53 year old mentally stable men would believe they could have a successful pop career in China)...or anywhere for that matter.
I am absolutely disgusted about this particular case, regardless of all the comments made in this thread about drug smuggling.
Firstly, if he was sufficiently ill that he was not aware of or responsible for his actions why had the family not done anything before he decided to have a pop career in China? I mean from what I have seen in coverage of this it seems there was no record of mental illness in the UK, certainly an interview with a psychologist implied that he was working from hearsay to come up with a diagnosis, which I suspect wouldn't have been the case if he had been diagnosed as mentally ill in the UK.
Secondly, if you go abroad without taking account of the laws of the country you are visiting you are a fool, would you have any sympathy with a Russian lorry driver who came over here got drunk and killed a young family in their car and then turned round and said "Well I wouldn't have been over the limit in Russia" would you? So why doesn't the same apply when 'westerners' go abroad.
Finally Heroin is illegal across the world, there is a reason for that but that is not the topic of this thread.
Iuchi_Zien: So do you believe in the Death Penalty as vengeance or punishment? Justice isn't supposed to be about vengeance it is supposed to be about the punishment of wrongdoers, or criminals the moment you start to bring vengeance into the equation it stops being Justice and is simply mob rule, is that what you want?
personlay I think the death penalty should be about protecting the public, If a person is a serious threat to the public thn exicute them, If they can be retrained then retrain them, If they did something wrong but are not a threat to the general public then jail time. I know that is a simplified version and implimenting it would be fare more complicated but that is what I think.
Iuchi_Zien: Firstly, if he was sufficiently ill that he was not aware of or responsible for his actions why had the family not done anything before he decided to have a pop career in China? I mean from what I have seen in coverage of this it seems there was no record of mental illness in the UK, certainly an interview with a psychologist implied that he was working from hearsay to come up with a diagnosis, which I suspect wouldn't have been the case if he had been diagnosed as mentally ill in the UK.
Secondly, if you go abroad without taking account of the laws of the country you are visiting you are a fool, would you have any sympathy with a Russian lorry driver who came over here got drunk and killed a young family in their car and then turned round and said "Well I wouldn't have been over the limit in Russia" would you? So why doesn't the same apply when 'westerners' go abroad.
Finally Heroin is illegal across the world, there is a reason for that but that is not the topic of this thread.
Secondly, if you go abroad without taking account of the laws of the country you are visiting you are a fool, would you have any sympathy with a Russian lorry driver who came over here got drunk and killed a young family in their car and then turned round and said "Well I wouldn't have been over the limit in Russia" would you? So why doesn't the same apply when 'westerners' go abroad.
Finally Heroin is illegal across the world, there is a reason for that but that is not the topic of this thread.
Well, I have travelled extensively in my work and I abide by the rules and customs of every country I live in. However, I am sane, and certainly not into drug smuggling nor any other illicit behaviour.
As for this particular man, I have heard his daughter speak on the BBC, and it was clear that his family had no idea of what he has been doing for some time, and his few emails were undoubtedly written. as confirmed by mental health specialists, by an emotionally unstable man. This man apparently was a successful businessman in his early life, but has been living outside the UK for some time and his family had not been an integral part of his life, as happens so often with people who have mental problems.
I have lived and worked in Russia, as you mention, for some time, and of course I realise the laws there, and in other countries I've worked in, but then, as I've already said, I am perfectly sound of mind.
Things are not always so cut and dried.
Jan1305: Well, I have travelled extensively in my work and I abide by the rules and customs of every country I live in. However, I am sane, and certainly not into drug smuggling nor any other illicit behaviour.
As for this particular man, I have heard his daughter speak on the BBC, and it was clear that his family had no idea of what he has been doing for some time, and his few emails were undoubtedly written. as confirmed by mental health specialists, by an emotionally unstable man. This man apparently was a successful businessman in his early life, but has been living outside the UK for some time and his family had not been an integral part of his life, as happens so often with people who have mental problems.
I have lived and worked in Russia, as you mention, for some time, and of course I realise the laws there, and in other countries I've worked in, but then, as I've already said, I am perfectly sound of mind.
Things are not always so cut and dried.
As for this particular man, I have heard his daughter speak on the BBC, and it was clear that his family had no idea of what he has been doing for some time, and his few emails were undoubtedly written. as confirmed by mental health specialists, by an emotionally unstable man. This man apparently was a successful businessman in his early life, but has been living outside the UK for some time and his family had not been an integral part of his life, as happens so often with people who have mental problems.
I have lived and worked in Russia, as you mention, for some time, and of course I realise the laws there, and in other countries I've worked in, but then, as I've already said, I am perfectly sound of mind.
Things are not always so cut and dried.
You are of sound mind? wow I think you are the only one on cs, personaly I question my own sanity quite often.
scoutmaster: personlay I think the death penalty should be about protecting the public, If a person is a serious threat to the public thn exicute them, If they can be retrained then retrain them, If they did something wrong but are not a threat to the general public then jail time. I know that is a simplified version and implimenting it would be fare more complicated but that is what I think.
And you don't think the public is just as protected with those dangerous people behind bars? The modern prison system is based on the theory that the deprivation of freedom is the punishment, and serves three purposes.
1. The public is protected from the criminal while he/she serves his sentence.
2. An opportunity to try to rehabilitate the criminal to make him/her a 'useful' member of society.
3. He/she is deprived of their freedom and will (rarely) see the error of their ways and decide that they don't wish to go through the punishment system again
As I've said I don't have a problem with capital punishment provided somebody is prepared to take responsibility and accept the results of a miscarriage of Justice. Capital Punishment, when incorrectly applied, is murder and somebody should be held accountable for that murder and if nobody is prepared to accept that responsibility then Capital punishment should not be used.
Jan1305: Well, I have travelled extensively in my work and I abide by the rules and customs of every country I live in. However, I am sane, and certainly not into drug smuggling nor any other illicit behaviour.
As for this particular man, I have heard his daughter speak on the BBC, and it was clear that his family had no idea of what he has been doing for some time, and his few emails were undoubtedly written. as confirmed by mental health specialists, by an emotionally unstable man. This man apparently was a successful businessman in his early life, but has been living outside the UK for some time and his family had not been an integral part of his life, as happens so often with people who have mental problems.
I have lived and worked in Russia, as you mention, for some time, and of course I realise the laws there, and in other countries I've worked in, but then, as I've already said, I am perfectly sound of mind.
Things are not always so cut and dried.
As for this particular man, I have heard his daughter speak on the BBC, and it was clear that his family had no idea of what he has been doing for some time, and his few emails were undoubtedly written. as confirmed by mental health specialists, by an emotionally unstable man. This man apparently was a successful businessman in his early life, but has been living outside the UK for some time and his family had not been an integral part of his life, as happens so often with people who have mental problems.
I have lived and worked in Russia, as you mention, for some time, and of course I realise the laws there, and in other countries I've worked in, but then, as I've already said, I am perfectly sound of mind.
Things are not always so cut and dried.
The problem is there is an enormous difference between 'emotionally unstable' and 'not responsible for his actions', a friend of mine whilst in Russia was asked by a friend of a friend to bring a parcel to the UK and post it, which he did. What he did was incredibly stupid but does not make him 'not responsible for his actions' the family are trying to say that doing something incredibly stupid does make him not responsible and nothing I have heard on any of the news outlets suggest he was not capable of making a judgement, however stupid that judgement may have been. Stupidity is not a legal defence!
as someone who has been smoking weed 30 years. i really dont call weed drugs. but while others have moved on to harder drugs. i always stuck with weed. never done any hard drugs.
Godsgift: Moi! Ach just hang everyone for anything they do wrong. It will save on pensions.
I would take it more seriously than that. People will think twice before to commit a crime, any crime if there will be a death penalty for it.
I do not want to pay my money to keep those morons in jails.
I have no love lost for someone who markets in drugs. This world has many problems and drugs is one of them and it shouldn't be one.
Iuchi_Zien: The problem is there is an enormous difference between 'emotionally unstable' and 'not responsible for his actions', a friend of mine whilst in Russia was asked by a friend of a friend to bring a parcel to the UK and post it, which he did. What he did was incredibly stupid but does not make him 'not responsible for his actions' the family are trying to say that doing something incredibly stupid does make him not responsible and nothing I have heard on any of the news outlets suggest he was not capable of making a judgement, however stupid that judgement may have been. Stupidity is not a legal defence!
I think yo may be pre-judging without any real understanding of mental ill health.
I do not profess to be an expert either, but from what I have read and heard whilst here in the UK for Christmas, this man may have been bipolar, which induces manic and uncontrollable behaviour if not treated, His family believe he has not been medically treated for some time.
I do not believe real mental illness can or should ever be equated to "stupidity" as you say. The problem in this particular case was that the man was not allowed a medical assessment before he was executed, despite the pleas made.....that is a crime.
As far as drugs go, If the person is the leader of a drug cartell and has a history of pushing and dealing, again think of the lives they have ruined, they are a danger to public safty, If they just got in with the wrong croud and can be retrained or after a time in prison be released as a procuctive member of society, then that is a better option.
Jan1305: I think yo may be pre-judging without any real understanding of mental ill health.
I do not profess to be an expert either, but from what I have read and heard whilst here in the UK for Christmas, this man may have been bipolar, which induces manic and uncontrollable behaviour if not treated, His family believe he has not been medically treated for some time.
I do not believe real mental illness can or should ever be equated to "stupidity" as you say. The problem in this particular case was that the man was not allowed a medical assessment before he was executed, despite the pleas made.....that is a crime.
I do not profess to be an expert either, but from what I have read and heard whilst here in the UK for Christmas, this man may have been bipolar, which induces manic and uncontrollable behaviour if not treated, His family believe he has not been medically treated for some time.
I do not believe real mental illness can or should ever be equated to "stupidity" as you say. The problem in this particular case was that the man was not allowed a medical assessment before he was executed, despite the pleas made.....that is a crime.
As somebody who suffers from chronic Depression I do have an understanding of mental ill health, I also came close to being sectioned because I didn't believe my anti-depressants were working and refused to take them along with my diabetes meds.
Nothing I have read about bi-polar disorder suggests that you become incapable of making judgements, and I fought hard to say that in spite of my depression I had the RIGHT to stop taking my meds and since I wasn't a threat to anybody else they had no right to treat me as incapable.
We are all assuming that China somehow is incapable of organising a fair trial, if he was as uncontrolled as his family say I'm sure his defence team would have put that forward. I find it interesting that the government and the family don't suggest the trial was unfair yet that is the time when mitigating evidence should have been put forward. Certainly from what I have read his defence was "I didn't know it was there" not "I'm mentally ill"
Mental illness is not stupidity, but it certainly encourages the making of stupid decisions (I could have saved myself a whole heap of aggravation by simply lying about taking my meds!) But that should never absolve me of responsibility for the decisions I or anybody else make.
kiwi69: So correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying you whole heartedly agree with their laws? Was he found with drugs or not? What are the consequences of drugs found in possession-- Oh that's right, he's a foreigner, why not treat him DIFFERENTLY
Are you purposely trying to twist my words or just plain stupid and so deserve to be executed, as that is what you think should happen according to YOUR WORDS!!!!
I clearly said I support and respect the laws of ANY country in which I am staying.
I also said that it does not matter where an accused person comes from, be he foreigner or a local resident, they should all be given the full defence and rights due to them.
In this particular case, the defence was not allowed to use any medical reports produced in the UK, no consideration was given to his medical background.
That, IMO, is wrong.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BEING A FOREIGNER
Iuchi_Zien: As somebody who suffers from chronic Depression I do have an understanding of mental ill health, I also came close to being sectioned because I didn't believe my anti-depressants were working and refused to take them along with my diabetes meds.
Nothing I have read about bi-polar disorder suggests that you become incapable of making judgements, and I fought hard to say that in spite of my depression I had the RIGHT to stop taking my meds and since I wasn't a threat to anybody else they had no right to treat me as incapable.
We are all assuming that China somehow is incapable of organising a fair trial, if he was as uncontrolled as his family say I'm sure his defence team would have put that forward. I find it interesting that the government and the family don't suggest the trial was unfair yet that is the time when mitigating evidence should have been put forward. Certainly from what I have read his defence was "I didn't know it was there" not "I'm mentally ill"
Mental illness is not stupidity, but it certainly encourages the making of stupid decisions (I could have saved myself a whole heap of aggravation by simply lying about taking my meds!) But that should never absolve me of responsibility for the decisions I or anybody else make.
Nothing I have read about bi-polar disorder suggests that you become incapable of making judgements, and I fought hard to say that in spite of my depression I had the RIGHT to stop taking my meds and since I wasn't a threat to anybody else they had no right to treat me as incapable.
We are all assuming that China somehow is incapable of organising a fair trial, if he was as uncontrolled as his family say I'm sure his defence team would have put that forward. I find it interesting that the government and the family don't suggest the trial was unfair yet that is the time when mitigating evidence should have been put forward. Certainly from what I have read his defence was "I didn't know it was there" not "I'm mentally ill"
Mental illness is not stupidity, but it certainly encourages the making of stupid decisions (I could have saved myself a whole heap of aggravation by simply lying about taking my meds!) But that should never absolve me of responsibility for the decisions I or anybody else make.
I'm sorry about your illness, yet I am at a loss, in the light of this in particular, why you should be so blinkered in your views about this specific case.
As for the comments you make about the Government, if you are talking about the British Government, you are quite wrong. They have publicly denounced the execution and have not yet let it rest.
I do not wish to argue with you about the varying degrees of mental illness, nor whether one suffering from such is able to fully comprehend whether they should take their medication and the consequences if they don't.
Most people I know have serious misgivings about Chinese politics and how it affects the way of life for people living there. It has been compared to life in Spain under Franco, or any dictatorship for that matter, when people are unable to hold get togethers or have visitors without the fear of a heavy knock on the door, or even worse. I also doubt that many people would condone the number of executions there have been in China or the methods adopted.
But then, I am always shocked, when I read here on CS, people writing about how they would be happy to "pull the trigger" themselves, so what do I know as a small dissenting voice in the crowd of would be executioners.
rizlared: Are you purposely trying to twist my words or just plain stupid and so deserve to be executed, as that is what you think should happen according to YOUR WORDS!!!!
I clearly said I support and respect the laws of ANY country in which I am staying.
I also said that it does not matter where an accused person comes from, be he foreigner or a local resident, they should all be given the full defence and rights due to them.
In this particular case, the defence was not allowed to use any medical reports produced in the UK, no consideration was given to his medical background.
That, IMO, is wrong.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BEING A FOREIGNER
I clearly said I support and respect the laws of ANY country in which I am staying.
I also said that it does not matter where an accused person comes from, be he foreigner or a local resident, they should all be given the full defence and rights due to them.
In this particular case, the defence was not allowed to use any medical reports produced in the UK, no consideration was given to his medical background.
That, IMO, is wrong.
IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS BEING A FOREIGNER
I'm not saying you're wrong but I was under the impression firstly his defence was "I didn't know it was there" not a mental health defence, secondly that there was no medical reports from the UK just psychologists from the UK who believed, based on his actions that he was Bipolar. I was also under the impression that he was provided with consular access within a short period of his arrest who may or may not (not been to China or arrested in China so I'm guessing) have provided him with a list of competent Defence lawyers. Haven't heard anything from the defence lawyers saying the trial was unfair.
Iuchi_Zien: We had a case recently, well fairly recently, where a man was convicted on DNA evidence of killing a woman, one in one billion chance the DNA could have come from somebody else. It later transpired that there had been contamination at the laboratory resulting in his DNA coming in contact with the women's clothing and as a result the guy was pardoned. If you had pulled the trigger on him would you have been prepared to forfeit your life?
Also for all their 'better lifestyle' can they open the door walk outside and watch the sunset come up? can they walk/drive/ride into town and have a beer? If life is so great in prison how come most of them spend their time trying to get out? Don't think I've ever heard of a convict saying "Don't parole me, I want to stay in here!"
Also for all their 'better lifestyle' can they open the door walk outside and watch the sunset come up? can they walk/drive/ride into town and have a beer? If life is so great in prison how come most of them spend their time trying to get out? Don't think I've ever heard of a convict saying "Don't parole me, I want to stay in here!"
actualy around here that have been quite a few cases of people committing a crime while on parol just to go back to prison.
as far as that rare case of DNA misshandeling, Who Is really to blame, The executioner who carried out sentence, the jurry who found guilty, the judge who passed sentence, or the person who misshandled the evidance. secondly is that person a threat to socioty or made a mistake that should sentence them to be punished, and or retrained.
as someone who spent a few years in a cage. sending someone to prison because you think drugs are bad. as adults we have choices. as we all no. at times adult make bad choices. i,m i saying drugs should be legalized. besides weed no,
Jan1305: I'm sorry about your illness, yet I am at a loss, in the light of this in particular, why you should be so blinkered in your views about this specific case.
The implications of this case are that if you suffer Bi-polar disorder (one of the effects of which is severe Depression) then you are somehow less responsible for your actions than if you were 'sane' As somebody who suffers from Depression I'm entitled to make exactly the same stupid mistakes as somebody who is 'sane' and to be held accountable for those mistakes.
Jan1305:
As for the comments you make about the Government, if you are talking about the British Government, you are quite wrong. They have publicly denounced the execution and have not yet let it rest.
As for the comments you make about the Government, if you are talking about the British Government, you are quite wrong. They have publicly denounced the execution and have not yet let it rest.
Not the execution but the trial leading up to the sentence, I've not seen anything suggesting that the guy wasn't provided with a defence or was 'railroaded'
Jan1305:
Most people I know have serious misgivings about Chinese politics and how it affects the way of life for people living there. It has been compared to life in Spain under Franco, or any dictatorship for that matter, when people are unable to hold get togethers or have visitors without the fear of a heavy knock on the door, or even worse. I also doubt that many people would condone the number of executions there have been in China or the methods adopted.
Most people I know have serious misgivings about Chinese politics and how it affects the way of life for people living there. It has been compared to life in Spain under Franco, or any dictatorship for that matter, when people are unable to hold get togethers or have visitors without the fear of a heavy knock on the door, or even worse. I also doubt that many people would condone the number of executions there have been in China or the methods adopted.
Then why was nobody complaining or protesting the execution of the people responsible for putting melamine in baby milk? It seems to me the only reason that any of this debate is occurring is because it was a 'Westerner' who was executed, and I can see how that could seriously wind up the Chinese. In this case I do have some sympathy with the Chinese authorities, if they had allowed the tests, condemnation internally for giving in to the west, if they don't, condemnation from the west for not allowing the tests.
Iuchi_Zien: I'm not saying you're wrong but I was under the impression firstly his defence was "I didn't know it was there" not a mental health defence, secondly that there was no medical reports from the UK just psychologists from the UK who believed, based on his actions that he was Bipolar. I was also under the impression that he was provided with consular access within a short period of his arrest who may or may not (not been to China or arrested in China so I'm guessing) have provided him with a list of competent Defence lawyers. Haven't heard anything from the defence lawyers saying the trial was unfair.
Lets just say that my understanding of the defence/consular support and yours are very different.
China, from what I have discovered so far, is a country of extremes,
on one side you have magnificent buildings, beautiful parks and lakes, fantastic restaurants and food, Shopping malls that are futuristic and an enviable transport system.
On the other hand, there is extreme poverty, people living in no more than tents or tenement blocks that are crumbling away from lack of maintenance, beggars in the streets with disabilities so they cannot work.
Some drive the latest BMW's while others have no transport other than walking or using a bus.
Yet the people you see downtown are happy and constantly smiling, laughter is everywhere, indeed the two passions of the Chinese is singing and laughing.
No country is perfect, but my opinion of China is that on the whole it is a wonderful place with a bright and healthy future.
I just feel that the execution has been a backward step in China's attempt to become seen as a world power,however, it will all be forgotten in a week or so as something else will dominate the headlines.
sassysuzy: yes line them up and shoot the lot of them, what if it was your child killing himself with Heroin that they'd got him hooked on?
Meth,Crack, Coke and HEROIN what about the people that would loose their lives who have been taken in by these DRUGS....Bet the next drug dealer will think twice...BANG YOUR DEAD.
rizlared: Lets just say that my understanding of the defence/consular support and yours are very different.
I'm basing it on what I've heard in the press (not just the English press) so if you've heard different...
Iuchi_Zien:
Not the execution but the trial leading up to the sentence, I've not seen anything suggesting that the guy wasn't provided with a defence or was 'railroaded'
Not the execution but the trial leading up to the sentence, I've not seen anything suggesting that the guy wasn't provided with a defence or was 'railroaded'
The west only see's in the news that which is allowed to be seen, this case was not even headline news in China until it was criticised by the west.
China controls 99.9% of the media
rizlared: The west only see's in the news that which is allowed to be seen, this case was not even headline news in China until it was criticised by the west.
China controls 99.9% of the media
China controls 99.9% of the media
Yes but I would have thought the UK government or the family would have been more vocal about the trial if they felt the trial was a sham. Mostly what I here from the government and the family is that the execution was wrong not that the trial was unfair.
gooddogman: Meth,Crack, Coke and HEROIN what about the people that would loose their lives who have been taken in by these DRUGS....Bet the next drug dealer will think twice...BANG YOUR DEAD.
No it will have no effect, those who organise the drug trafficking use saps like the British guy, they know they cannot be caught, and they will always find stupid ignorant people to do their dirty work for them.
The Chinese police are doing a good job in the drug war, but as in any country, it is a huge task, and with a country the size of China with the worlds largest population, it is a mammoth task.
Iuchi_Zien: Yes but I would have thought the UK government or the family would have been more vocal about the trial if they felt the trial was a sham. Mostly what I here from the government and the family is that the execution was wrong not that the trial was unfair.
I have read the British press and also had stories here translated for me, all I can say is there is a conflict of opinions between the two media's
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As for the particular case which has been brought up here, I am absolutely appalled that this man has been executed, and I sincerely hope the British Government pays more than the "slap on the wrist" lip service it has made so far.
As for those of you who bang on about how people should know and realise their fate when they do such things in certain countries, well that's all well and good, but not as simplistic as that. Many of these people often, in my opinion, do not truly realise the consequences of their actions, and believe they will be treated in accordance with Western law if the worst comes to the worst.
This particular man was, as far as we know, mentally ill....how many 53 year old mentally stable men would believe they could have a successful pop career in China)...or anywhere for that matter.
I am absolutely disgusted about this particular case, regardless of all the comments made in this thread about drug smuggling.