COMMUNISME OR KAPITALISME ? (480)
We need a 3rd system of government.
Capitalism and communism both have their flaws, and bad ones. Communism is not much different than being ruled by a king or queen, and capitalism is a feeding troth for the rich.
I have no idea what the 3rd system would be, but we need it. Its time to evolved beyond the crap.
Capitalism and communism both have their flaws, and bad ones. Communism is not much different than being ruled by a king or queen, and capitalism is a feeding troth for the rich.
I have no idea what the 3rd system would be, but we need it. Its time to evolved beyond the crap.
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RillyNiceGuy: No fair system will ever work......too much self and greed. Those who would rule need to be made servants and those who would serve made into rulers.
that is not possible as not everybody has the capabillity to rule over people.
The only thing that is asking yourself, which system is fair enough that can bring the weak ()est people into our society without judgemends, but with care.
Not every one (90%procent of the world population) gets a golden chance in live, how smart they might be.
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Bulll: that is not possible as not everybody has the capabillity to rule over people.
The only thing that is asking yourself, which system is fair enough that can bring the weak ()est people into our society without judgemends, but with care.
Not every one (90%procent of the world population) gets a golden chance in live, how smart they might be.
Those who WOULD rule (choice) would do so to rule for power and greed in most cases. But one who WOULD serve (choice) knows the needs of another to seeing it is given. All would be feed, all would be warm,....etc......but all would need be doing the same.....a servant cannot rule among jackels.The only thing that is asking yourself, which system is fair enough that can bring the weak ()est people into our society without judgemends, but with care.
Not every one (90%procent of the world population) gets a golden chance in live, how smart they might be.
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Bulll: respond to your 1+2) remark.
When people arent rated on their money, they get rathed on their personality and that was how hard are you willing to show that you are a men that is willing to work for his nation,people and family, kamaraad, that is called esperite democratie not Stalinism.
Stalinism becomes after goverments try to over throw yours and you have to be carefull that your people dont get infacted by those ideas. But as i manchend it is better this way, as kapitalism will over trow itself.
When people arent rated on their money, they get rathed on their personality and that was how hard are you willing to show that you are a men that is willing to work for his nation,people and family, kamaraad, that is called esperite democratie not Stalinism.
Stalinism becomes after goverments try to over throw yours and you have to be carefull that your people dont get infacted by those ideas. But as i manchend it is better this way, as kapitalism will over trow itself.
I would say that sounds in a sense Nationalist, even a trace of Libertarian, as opposed to Communist. Nonetheless you still need a society that reflects effort through incentives towards it.
The point is history shows it doesn't work, and it's descent into Stalinism time and time again. One or two ideas from the Bolsheviks I would use if it was up to me, but it's still so flawed, the idea of paying a doctor and a taxi driver the same wage is just ridiculous. The idea of throwing away Culturism(inherited values, traditions, morals etc)is just wrong.
New ideas are needed towards Socialism and politics in general, it seems that philosophy and political ideology has barely moved an inch since WWII.
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StillOfTheNight: We need a 3rd system of government.
Capitalism and communism both have their flaws, and bad ones. Communism is not much different than being ruled by a king or queen, and capitalism is a feeding troth for the rich.
I have no idea what the 3rd system would be, but we need it. Its time to evolved beyond the crap.
Capitalism and communism both have their flaws, and bad ones. Communism is not much different than being ruled by a king or queen, and capitalism is a feeding troth for the rich.
I have no idea what the 3rd system would be, but we need it. Its time to evolved beyond the crap.
That would be Fascism(as in the political ideology)you are describing, essentially it is a synergy of Communism and Capitalism.
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StillOfTheNight: We need a 3rd system of government.
Capitalism and communism both have their flaws, and bad ones. Communism is not much different than being ruled by a king or queen, and capitalism is a feeding troth for the rich.
I have no idea what the 3rd system would be, but we need it. Its time to evolved beyond the crap.
Better read up on Capitalism,and don't throw it in the Bag labeled Statism!Capitalism and communism both have their flaws, and bad ones. Communism is not much different than being ruled by a king or queen, and capitalism is a feeding troth for the rich.
I have no idea what the 3rd system would be, but we need it. Its time to evolved beyond the crap.
Can't have it both ways!
You're talking about Fascism and Communism,which are basically just rival Gangs fighting over the same territory!
Then in the end,when a mixed Economy bites the Dust,they blame Capitalism,something that has never existed on this Earth!
Pretty disingenuous I might say.
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A very interesting thread I think, and a very interesting dicussion in general.
Very complex, obviously.
For the Americans who say that "Capitalism is the American way": read Howard Zinn "A people's history of the United States" and learn how a century socialism was booming, largely thanks to the appalling conditions people living in and working in.
TO everybody else: read Michale Parenti's books, amongst others to learn how the US empire have succeeded in overthrowing popular movements all over the world. With him I would say: most countries in the world are capitalist countries: Mexico, Guatemala, Chili, Angola, Mozambique, Mali, Nigeria, the Filippines, Indonesia. Look at the conditions those people are living in: no health care, no schools,..no food.
About the former communist countries: it's true that bureaucracy took over, and that there was a lack of politcal rights. But there was also housing for everybody (no slums), education up to university level, food, women's rights, work for everybody (no army of unemployed needed to keep wages down). Just compare the "unhappy" people in the former USSR with the hapiness of it's people under capitalism: no more cheap housing, no more work, education and health care for everybody. But a small group of millionaire with enough money to buy European soccer teams as a hobby.
Cuba: a Batista dicatorship supported by the USA (and by its mafia) with people living under exstremely bad conditions; no freedom no democracy. Today (and I know there's also things going wrong): highest literacy of Latin America (and higher than USA), life expectancy highest of Latin America (and equal or little above that in the USA), more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, more doctors in Third World countries than any other country in the world, a direct democracy. Result: a USA boycott, attempts to kill Castro and a failed invasion.
Before people start responding that there is no democracy in Cuba: you're wrong. They have local, provincial and national elections. For local elections they take quartes from about 2000 people to elect a cancidate. All candidfates are on one list and get equal attention in the press. For provincial and national elections candidates are selected from students, unions, elder people, etc. How are they selected? By hearing the opinion of about 10% of the population (that is only for the formation of the list of candidates!). There are no professional politians, once a candidate is elected, he or she just gets time of from the job. When an elected politician doens't do well, people can replace him with another candidate! About 90-95% of all voters use their vote! I only learned all of this recently because our "independent and objective press" never mentions this!
Very complex, obviously.
For the Americans who say that "Capitalism is the American way": read Howard Zinn "A people's history of the United States" and learn how a century socialism was booming, largely thanks to the appalling conditions people living in and working in.
TO everybody else: read Michale Parenti's books, amongst others to learn how the US empire have succeeded in overthrowing popular movements all over the world. With him I would say: most countries in the world are capitalist countries: Mexico, Guatemala, Chili, Angola, Mozambique, Mali, Nigeria, the Filippines, Indonesia. Look at the conditions those people are living in: no health care, no schools,..no food.
About the former communist countries: it's true that bureaucracy took over, and that there was a lack of politcal rights. But there was also housing for everybody (no slums), education up to university level, food, women's rights, work for everybody (no army of unemployed needed to keep wages down). Just compare the "unhappy" people in the former USSR with the hapiness of it's people under capitalism: no more cheap housing, no more work, education and health care for everybody. But a small group of millionaire with enough money to buy European soccer teams as a hobby.
Cuba: a Batista dicatorship supported by the USA (and by its mafia) with people living under exstremely bad conditions; no freedom no democracy. Today (and I know there's also things going wrong): highest literacy of Latin America (and higher than USA), life expectancy highest of Latin America (and equal or little above that in the USA), more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, more doctors in Third World countries than any other country in the world, a direct democracy. Result: a USA boycott, attempts to kill Castro and a failed invasion.
Before people start responding that there is no democracy in Cuba: you're wrong. They have local, provincial and national elections. For local elections they take quartes from about 2000 people to elect a cancidate. All candidfates are on one list and get equal attention in the press. For provincial and national elections candidates are selected from students, unions, elder people, etc. How are they selected? By hearing the opinion of about 10% of the population (that is only for the formation of the list of candidates!). There are no professional politians, once a candidate is elected, he or she just gets time of from the job. When an elected politician doens't do well, people can replace him with another candidate! About 90-95% of all voters use their vote! I only learned all of this recently because our "independent and objective press" never mentions this!
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AGreatGuy2: So the answer is that we should allow standards as bad as those countries so we can retain the jobs???
Simply too stupid to merit a response.
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Gert1: A very interesting thread I think, and a very interesting dicussion in general.
Very complex, obviously.
For the Americans who say that "Capitalism is the American way": read Howard Zinn "A people's history of the United States" and learn how a century socialism was booming, largely thanks to the appalling conditions people living in and working in.
TO everybody else: read Michale Parenti's books, amongst others to learn how the US empire have succeeded in overthrowing popular movements all over the world. With him I would say: most countries in the world are capitalist countries: Mexico, Guatemala, Chili, Angola, Mozambique, Mali, Nigeria, the Filippines, Indonesia. Look at the conditions those people are living in: no health care, no schools,..no food.
About the former communist countries: it's true that bureaucracy took over, and that there was a lack of politcal rights. But there was also housing for everybody (no slums), education up to university level, food, women's rights, work for everybody (no army of unemployed needed to keep wages down). Just compare the "unhappy" people in the former USSR with the hapiness of it's people under capitalism: no more cheap housing, no more work, education and health care for everybody. But a small group of millionaire with enough money to buy European soccer teams as a hobby.
Cuba: a Batista dicatorship supported by the USA (and by its mafia) with people living under exstremely bad conditions; no freedom no democracy. Today (and I know there's also things going wrong): highest literacy of Latin America (and higher than USA), life expectancy highest of Latin America (and equal or little above that in the USA), more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, more doctors in Third World countries than any other country in the world, a direct democracy. Result: a USA boycott, attempts to kill Castro and a failed invasion.
Before people start responding that there is no democracy in Cuba: you're wrong. They have local, provincial and national elections. For local elections they take quartes from about 2000 people to elect a cancidate. All candidfates are on one list and get equal attention in the press. For provincial and national elections candidates are selected from students, unions, elder people, etc. How are they selected? By hearing the opinion of about 10% of the population (that is only for the formation of the list of candidates!). There are no professional politians, once a candidate is elected, he or she just gets time of from the job. When an elected politician doens't do well, people can replace him with another candidate! About 90-95% of all voters use their vote! I only learned all of this recently because our "independent and objective press" never mentions this!
Very complex, obviously.
For the Americans who say that "Capitalism is the American way": read Howard Zinn "A people's history of the United States" and learn how a century socialism was booming, largely thanks to the appalling conditions people living in and working in.
TO everybody else: read Michale Parenti's books, amongst others to learn how the US empire have succeeded in overthrowing popular movements all over the world. With him I would say: most countries in the world are capitalist countries: Mexico, Guatemala, Chili, Angola, Mozambique, Mali, Nigeria, the Filippines, Indonesia. Look at the conditions those people are living in: no health care, no schools,..no food.
About the former communist countries: it's true that bureaucracy took over, and that there was a lack of politcal rights. But there was also housing for everybody (no slums), education up to university level, food, women's rights, work for everybody (no army of unemployed needed to keep wages down). Just compare the "unhappy" people in the former USSR with the hapiness of it's people under capitalism: no more cheap housing, no more work, education and health care for everybody. But a small group of millionaire with enough money to buy European soccer teams as a hobby.
Cuba: a Batista dicatorship supported by the USA (and by its mafia) with people living under exstremely bad conditions; no freedom no democracy. Today (and I know there's also things going wrong): highest literacy of Latin America (and higher than USA), life expectancy highest of Latin America (and equal or little above that in the USA), more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, more doctors in Third World countries than any other country in the world, a direct democracy. Result: a USA boycott, attempts to kill Castro and a failed invasion.
Before people start responding that there is no democracy in Cuba: you're wrong. They have local, provincial and national elections. For local elections they take quartes from about 2000 people to elect a cancidate. All candidfates are on one list and get equal attention in the press. For provincial and national elections candidates are selected from students, unions, elder people, etc. How are they selected? By hearing the opinion of about 10% of the population (that is only for the formation of the list of candidates!). There are no professional politians, once a candidate is elected, he or she just gets time of from the job. When an elected politician doens't do well, people can replace him with another candidate! About 90-95% of all voters use their vote! I only learned all of this recently because our "independent and objective press" never mentions this!
and being mentioned favorably by Noam Chomski isn't too much of a Recommendation either.
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Conrad73: http://spectator.org/archives/2010/08/02/the-case-against-howard-zinnhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/sean-paige/howard-zinns-unwholesome_b_670243.htmland being mentioned favorably by Noam Chomski isn't too much of a Recommendation either.
So, what's the problem? That he was labeled a communist during the McCarthy witch hunt? That the FBI and CIA etc etc don't like communists, we all know that. As instrument of the coporate state, what else would they do?
That's no proof, not even the faintest indication that what he wrote isn't correct. In fact, I've read his book and it's very good, he did very good historical research (and he's a good writer, which is a bonus).
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It seems Conrad,pleases you only whatever written,by the extreme right.-
Conrad73: http://spectator.org/archives/2010/08/02/the-case-against-howard-zinnhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/sean-paige/howard-zinns-unwholesome_b_670243.htmland being mentioned favorably by Noam Chomski isn't too much of a Recommendation either.
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Gert1: So, what's the problem? That he was labeled a communist during the McCarthy witch hunt? That the FBI and CIA etc etc don't like communists, we all know that. As instrument of the coporate state, what else would they do?
That's no proof, not even the faintest indication that what he wrote isn't correct. In fact, I've read his book and it's very good, he did very good historical research (and he's a good writer, which is a bonus).
He was a Cardcarrying Communist!That's no proof, not even the faintest indication that what he wrote isn't correct. In fact, I've read his book and it's very good, he did very good historical research (and he's a good writer, which is a bonus).
In cahoots with the Enemies of the USA!
A National Security Threat!
You a Marxist or something?
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TrueBlue1986: I thought you are the extreme right? You sound like a Rand type to me.
Extreme Right?
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Conrad73: Extreme Right?
Well yes. Rand is anti-social, anti-welfare, egoism over altruism and holds the belief that the sole motivation within people at all times is self-interest. She's a dumbed down version of Nietzsche.
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shunshine dont look at people who are doing good, look at people who arent doing that well, i can promise you one thing.
That with your additute and your money you wouldnt last a second in more then 60 procent of the world area.
How about me buying you a ticket to Mexico, leave the accomodations up to me
That with your additute and your money you wouldnt last a second in more then 60 procent of the world area.
How about me buying you a ticket to Mexico, leave the accomodations up to me
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Bulll: shunshine dont look at people who are doing good, look at people who arent doing that well, i can promise you one thing.
That with your additute and your money you wouldnt last a second in more then 60 procent of the world area.
How about me buying you a ticket to Mexico, leave the accomodations up to me
That with your additute and your money you wouldnt last a second in more then 60 procent of the world area.
How about me buying you a ticket to Mexico, leave the accomodations up to me
I was talking to the proffesor, all inclusive holiday ?
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TrueBlue1986: Well yes. Rand is anti-social, anti-welfare, egoism over altruism and holds the belief that the sole motivation within people at all times is self-interest. She's a dumbed down version of Nietzsche.
actually she despised him!------ This thread is Archived ------
Gert1: A very interesting thread I think, and a very interesting dicussion in general.
Very complex, obviously.
For the Americans who say that "Capitalism is the American way": read Howard Zinn "A people's history of the United States" and learn how a century socialism was booming, largely thanks to the appalling conditions people living in and working in.
TO everybody else: read Michale Parenti's books, amongst others to learn how the US empire have succeeded in overthrowing popular movements all over the world. With him I would say: most countries in the world are capitalist countries: Mexico, Guatemala, Chili, Angola, Mozambique, Mali, Nigeria, the Filippines, Indonesia. Look at the conditions those people are living in: no health care, no schools,..no food.
About the former communist countries: it's true that bureaucracy took over, and that there was a lack of politcal rights. But there was also housing for everybody (no slums), education up to university level, food, women's rights, work for everybody (no army of unemployed needed to keep wages down). Just compare the "unhappy" people in the former USSR with the hapiness of it's people under capitalism: no more cheap housing, no more work, education and health care for everybody. But a small group of millionaire with enough money to buy European soccer teams as a hobby.
Cuba: a Batista dicatorship supported by the USA (and by its mafia) with people living under exstremely bad conditions; no freedom no democracy. Today (and I know there's also things going wrong): highest literacy of Latin America (and higher than USA), life expectancy highest of Latin America (and equal or little above that in the USA), more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, more doctors in Third World countries than any other country in the world, a direct democracy. Result: a USA boycott, attempts to kill Castro and a failed invasion.
Before people start responding that there is no democracy in Cuba: you're wrong. They have local, provincial and national elections. For local elections they take quartes from about 2000 people to elect a cancidate. All candidfates are on one list and get equal attention in the press. For provincial and national elections candidates are selected from students, unions, elder people, etc. How are they selected? By hearing the opinion of about 10% of the population (that is only for the formation of the list of candidates!). There are no professional politians, once a candidate is elected, he or she just gets time of from the job. When an elected politician doens't do well, people can replace him with another candidate! About 90-95% of all voters use their vote! I only learned all of this recently because our "independent and objective press" never mentions this!
you meant Fascist of Course!Very complex, obviously.
For the Americans who say that "Capitalism is the American way": read Howard Zinn "A people's history of the United States" and learn how a century socialism was booming, largely thanks to the appalling conditions people living in and working in.
TO everybody else: read Michale Parenti's books, amongst others to learn how the US empire have succeeded in overthrowing popular movements all over the world. With him I would say: most countries in the world are capitalist countries: Mexico, Guatemala, Chili, Angola, Mozambique, Mali, Nigeria, the Filippines, Indonesia. Look at the conditions those people are living in: no health care, no schools,..no food.
About the former communist countries: it's true that bureaucracy took over, and that there was a lack of politcal rights. But there was also housing for everybody (no slums), education up to university level, food, women's rights, work for everybody (no army of unemployed needed to keep wages down). Just compare the "unhappy" people in the former USSR with the hapiness of it's people under capitalism: no more cheap housing, no more work, education and health care for everybody. But a small group of millionaire with enough money to buy European soccer teams as a hobby.
Cuba: a Batista dicatorship supported by the USA (and by its mafia) with people living under exstremely bad conditions; no freedom no democracy. Today (and I know there's also things going wrong): highest literacy of Latin America (and higher than USA), life expectancy highest of Latin America (and equal or little above that in the USA), more doctors per capita than any other country in the world, more doctors in Third World countries than any other country in the world, a direct democracy. Result: a USA boycott, attempts to kill Castro and a failed invasion.
Before people start responding that there is no democracy in Cuba: you're wrong. They have local, provincial and national elections. For local elections they take quartes from about 2000 people to elect a cancidate. All candidfates are on one list and get equal attention in the press. For provincial and national elections candidates are selected from students, unions, elder people, etc. How are they selected? By hearing the opinion of about 10% of the population (that is only for the formation of the list of candidates!). There are no professional politians, once a candidate is elected, he or she just gets time of from the job. When an elected politician doens't do well, people can replace him with another candidate! About 90-95% of all voters use their vote! I only learned all of this recently because our "independent and objective press" never mentions this!
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TrueBlue1986: Well yes. Rand is anti-social, anti-welfare, egoism over altruism and holds the belief that the sole motivation within people at all times is self-interest. She's a dumbed down version of Nietzsche.
Actually you have some real need to read some Rand,Hayek,von Mises and Rothbarth!------ This thread is Archived ------
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The answer is National Socialism/Fascism, untrustworthy because you're relying on the dictator to be an incredibly noble person.
Communism's two flaws
1) Spiritual/Cultural void, the Bolsheviks bond over the current class system but then destroy the current class sytem under Communism, then there is nothing for the society to relate together over. One reason why it so easily turns to Stalinism.
2) Profit motive. Many people simply won't apply more skill or take on more responsibility without an incentive to do so. Without the incentives for effort the system needs someone ruthless to drive it, again, Stalinism.
respond to your 1+2) remark.
When people arent rated on their money, they get rathed on their personality and that was how hard are you willing to show that you are a men that is willing to work for his nation,people and family, kamaraad, that is called esperite democratie not Stalinism.
Stalinism becomes after goverments try to over throw yours and you have to be carefull that your people dont get infacted by those ideas. But as i manchend it is better this way, as kapitalism will over trow itself.