time for the working man to offer up ideas on how to handle this bail;out (19)
Im not advocating communisim or even socialism here but I do see that capitalism is currently devouring not only itself, but also the freedoms of us all.
Any society which is based on competition as opposed to co-operation or, which prioritises the needs of the rich above those of the poor or, removes the means of earning a living from the majority or, which is designed for the benefit of corporations and uses violence to assert its purpose......... is bloody wrong!
Any society which is based on competition as opposed to co-operation or, which prioritises the needs of the rich above those of the poor or, removes the means of earning a living from the majority or, which is designed for the benefit of corporations and uses violence to assert its purpose......... is bloody wrong!
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To me any bail outs should start with the "little guy" the subprime mortages were often given on an inflated value of the property.... this should be adjusted to an accurate value and the loans readjusted. I think it´s better to lose 20% of the loan then to lose the entire amount to foreclosure... glutting the market with additional properties and lowering housing values even more.
To me... pushing for deregulation of the banking and finance industry and then expecting the taxpayers to pick up the pieces... is a bit like having your cake and eating it too.
To me... pushing for deregulation of the banking and finance industry and then expecting the taxpayers to pick up the pieces... is a bit like having your cake and eating it too.
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trish123: Im not advocating communisim or even socialism here but I do see that capitalism is currently devouring not only itself, but also the freedoms of us all.
Any society which is based on competition as opposed to co-operation or, which prioritises the needs of the rich above those of the poor or, removes the means of earning a living from the majority or, which is designed for the benefit of corporations and uses violence to assert its purpose......... is bloody wrong!
Any society which is based on competition as opposed to co-operation or, which prioritises the needs of the rich above those of the poor or, removes the means of earning a living from the majority or, which is designed for the benefit of corporations and uses violence to assert its purpose......... is bloody wrong!
Unfortuneatly you'll get greed and malfeasance in any system. Democratic capitalism has the best chance for reasonable world peace (trading partners are less likely to go to war in a democracy, more co-operative). The problem with the system as I see it is that the average Joe accepts the declarations of corporate heads, inadvertantly allowing the greed, rather than dispersing profit within the workforce equally or at least in a more balanced way. Human value is now measured by status and or 'job position' rather than equality in contributions. My eight hour day ought to be just as valuable as any other, providing I performed well
I think everyone realizes its abhorrent to be paying sports stars and movie stars and corporate leaders the obnoxioius sums of money they get but no one seems willing to to stop buying what they sell. The labour movement made inroads into the system but has fallen short in my opinion. The greed of elite interests will fight to maintain the large gap between haves and the have nots in any system. I still think a value based economy in democratic capitalism has the best chance.
As for the current problem, I suggest giving that 700 billion back to american citizens! They say the purpose is to get the ecomony moving again, and that would do it. Instead they are propping up corporations that will continue to foster the inequaties of a greed based system, will add more profits to those who already have it and leave average Joes with less. Please help the rich??? Really, .... people!!!!!!!!!
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maybe we can consider making stupidity a criminal offense.
punishable by loss of property and forfeiture of all assets.
they in a way are doing it already to the lees educated and underemployed....
maybe this unwritten law should transcend to the higher income and educated brackets of Americans.
punishable by loss of property and forfeiture of all assets.
they in a way are doing it already to the lees educated and underemployed....
maybe this unwritten law should transcend to the higher income and educated brackets of Americans.
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fireliter: maybe we can consider making stupidity a criminal offense.
punishable by loss of property and forfeiture of all assets.
they in a way are doing it already to the lees educated and underemployed....
I dunno, if I were rich, getting the poor to pay my bills seems pretty smart actually...
Hence the public outcry...and the very little we can do about it...
maybe this unwritten law should transcend to the higher income and educated brackets of Americans.
punishable by loss of property and forfeiture of all assets.
they in a way are doing it already to the lees educated and underemployed....
I dunno, if I were rich, getting the poor to pay my bills seems pretty smart actually...
Hence the public outcry...and the very little we can do about it...
maybe this unwritten law should transcend to the higher income and educated brackets of Americans.
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BnaturAl: Unfortuneatly you'll get greed and malfeasance in any system. Democratic capitalism has the best chance for reasonable world peace (trading partners are less likely to go to war in a democracy, more co-operative). The problem with the system as I see it is that the average Joe accepts the declarations of corporate heads, inadvertantly allowing the greed, rather than dispersing profit within the workforce equally or at least in a more balanced way. Human value is now measured by status and or 'job position' rather than equality in contributions. My eight hour day ought to be just as valuable as any other, providing I performed well
I think everyone realizes its abhorrent to be paying sports stars and movie stars and corporate leaders the obnoxioius sums of money they get but no one seems willing to to stop buying what they sell. The labour movement made inroads into the system but has fallen short in my opinion. The greed of elite interests will fight to maintain the large gap between haves and the have nots in any system. I still think a value based economy in democratic capitalism has the best chance.
As for the current problem, I suggest giving that 700 billion back to american citizens! They say the purpose is to get the ecomony moving again, and that would do it. Instead they are propping up corporations that will continue to foster the inequaties of a greed based system, will add more profits to those who already have it and leave average Joes with less. Please help the rich??? Really, .... people!!!!!!!!!
I think everyone realizes its abhorrent to be paying sports stars and movie stars and corporate leaders the obnoxioius sums of money they get but no one seems willing to to stop buying what they sell. The labour movement made inroads into the system but has fallen short in my opinion. The greed of elite interests will fight to maintain the large gap between haves and the have nots in any system. I still think a value based economy in democratic capitalism has the best chance.
As for the current problem, I suggest giving that 700 billion back to american citizens! They say the purpose is to get the ecomony moving again, and that would do it. Instead they are propping up corporations that will continue to foster the inequaties of a greed based system, will add more profits to those who already have it and leave average Joes with less. Please help the rich??? Really, .... people!!!!!!!!!
Well, now we know what that meager stimulus check they gave is costing us now... real quick what was the interest rate that has been charged us por that stimulus check? and could we assess the same rate on this bailout loan they asking for?
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Lemme try this again...
I dunno, if I were rich, getting the poor to pay my bills seems pretty smart actually...
Hence the public outcry...and the very little we can do about it...
I dunno, if I were rich, getting the poor to pay my bills seems pretty smart actually...
Hence the public outcry...and the very little we can do about it...
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Galactic_bodhi: Lemme try this again...
I dunno, if I were rich, getting the poor to pay my bills seems pretty smart actually...
Hence the public outcry...and the very little we can do about it...
I dunno, if I were rich, getting the poor to pay my bills seems pretty smart actually...
Hence the public outcry...and the very little we can do about it...
THANK YOU I went back a read my post and thought damn I did not say that...
however you've revealed you definitely have the ability to write campaign ads comparable to what I've been seeing lately
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I have no idea how to handle this crisis. But then, again, you asked for a worling man's ideas. I haven't worked in 10 years.
Bottom line...too old to care anymore. I'll be dead before this crisis is over, anyway
Have at It, Boys and girls!! It's your world now!!
Bottom line...too old to care anymore. I'll be dead before this crisis is over, anyway
Have at It, Boys and girls!! It's your world now!!
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fireliter: Well, now we know what that meager stimulus check they gave is costing us now... real quick what was the interest rate that has been charged us por that stimulus check? and could we assess the same rate on this bailout loan they asking for?
That stimulus check was a psychological red herring they knew what was coming. Toss some scraps at the commoners first so they feel cared for, to justify even larger sums being tossed to the rich.
They just print more money. The interest goes to the world bank lenders. You realize that money has no backing now. Its no longer backed by any value, including gold. America is being brought 'inline' by the world bank and the elite to level with the the rest of the world. Global economy isn't just a buzz word, its an elite agenda.
it always amazes me how citizens are placated psychologically and remain blind to whats really going on. Take gas prices for example. They use psychological warfare there as well. They have been doing it for ages.
They raise fuel costs to a real obnoxious level for a couple weeks, freaking you out, and then lower it back down, but not as low as it was before they raised it. This lessens your freak out, psychologically, you go "phew thats better" but they have effectively gotten the increase they wanted, while you feel "ok" about the new (higher) current price. Freak you out, calm you down, freak you out calm you down, all the while making gains off your backs on the fact that psychologically you feel 'better' about the new price.
you are always going to pay, no matter what 'they do' because 'they' run the system and you paying is how it all works.
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BnaturAl: That stimulus check was a psychological red herring they knew what was coming. Toss some scraps at the commoners first so they feel cared for, to justify even larger sums being tossed to the rich.
They just print more money. The interest goes to the world bank lenders. You realize that money has no backing now. Its no longer backed by any value, including gold. America is being brought 'inline' by the world bank and the elite to level with the the rest of the world. Global economy isn't just a buzz word, its an elite agenda.
it always amazes me how citizens are placated psychologically and remain blind to whats really going on. Take gas prices for example. They use psychological warfare there as well. They have been doing it for ages.
They raise fuel costs to a real obnoxious level for a couple weeks, freaking you out, and then lower it back down, but not as low as it was before they raised it. This lessens your freak out, psychologically, you go "phew thats better" but they have effectively gotten the increase they wanted, while you feel "ok" about the new (higher) current price. Freak you out, calm you down, freak you out calm you down, all the while making gains off your backs on the fact that psychologically you feel 'better' about the new price.
you are always going to pay, no matter what 'they do' because 'they' run the system and you paying is how it all works.
They just print more money. The interest goes to the world bank lenders. You realize that money has no backing now. Its no longer backed by any value, including gold. America is being brought 'inline' by the world bank and the elite to level with the the rest of the world. Global economy isn't just a buzz word, its an elite agenda.
it always amazes me how citizens are placated psychologically and remain blind to whats really going on. Take gas prices for example. They use psychological warfare there as well. They have been doing it for ages.
They raise fuel costs to a real obnoxious level for a couple weeks, freaking you out, and then lower it back down, but not as low as it was before they raised it. This lessens your freak out, psychologically, you go "phew thats better" but they have effectively gotten the increase they wanted, while you feel "ok" about the new (higher) current price. Freak you out, calm you down, freak you out calm you down, all the while making gains off your backs on the fact that psychologically you feel 'better' about the new price.
you are always going to pay, no matter what 'they do' because 'they' run the system and you paying is how it all works.
I was just raging about fiat money in another thread the other day.
Yep. Our money is debt-backed. Got plenty of that. We should all be rich, if that's all that we need...
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Galactic_bodhi: Anytime someone has attempted to change this, they are either assassinated or marginalized.
If you look closely, the elite don't have rational reasons to elect their stooges. They use ad hominen attacks rather than attack the policy of someone dangerous to them, and then, once these ad hominems are established as warrants with no true fact-checking, they proceed to the next step, which is an appeal to emotion:
"<insert liberals name here> is bad. Look at who he is...do you want this man running your government and being responsible for the education of your kids? vote <insert conservative's name here> for a better
America!" Okay. So how are they going to make it better? By giving welfare to the rich? They DONT NEED IT! Give me an actual rational reason why I should believe an effing word that comes out of these peoples mouths (any of them).
If you look closely, the elite don't have rational reasons to elect their stooges. They use ad hominen attacks rather than attack the policy of someone dangerous to them, and then, once these ad hominems are established as warrants with no true fact-checking, they proceed to the next step, which is an appeal to emotion:
"<insert liberals name here> is bad. Look at who he is...do you want this man running your government and being responsible for the education of your kids? vote <insert conservative's name here> for a better
America!" Okay. So how are they going to make it better? By giving welfare to the rich? They DONT NEED IT! Give me an actual rational reason why I should believe an effing word that comes out of these peoples mouths (any of them).
I can't think of a reason Trace.
Power has never ever actually changed hands, since the beginning of time. Oh, governments have been toppled for sure but the elite have always ran and controlled whatever system is in place from fuedalism to capitalism. They have also controlled what government is in place in different countries all over the globe depending on that country's importance to their plan and global domination. The system isn't nearly as important as who runs it, who DICTATES it. The last guy who tried to sever the ties got killed for it, Kennedy.We've already been marginalized. I wonder if there is any correalation between the fed and being fed up? I watched Bush's announcement on TV last night, the rhetoric was thick and slimey, placating americans into beleiveing that supporting the rich was good for all those ordinary people. If they can prop up wall street, they sure as hell can prop up the common man, but never will.
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fireliter: I agree but in the scope that you mentioned I'm one of those janitor, secretary types so what can i expect... increased responsibility and more financial burdens...
I'm telling everyone who will read this I'm going back to the barter system and cutting out the middle man... the taxes on the necessities of life have and should be more than enough to take from me...
As for my student loans.... well I own a piece of the loan company so I hereby exercise my right to issue a PAID In FULL receipt to me for that debt... it'll hurt my bottom line this quarter but hell deserve it.
I'm telling everyone who will read this I'm going back to the barter system and cutting out the middle man... the taxes on the necessities of life have and should be more than enough to take from me...
As for my student loans.... well I own a piece of the loan company so I hereby exercise my right to issue a PAID In FULL receipt to me for that debt... it'll hurt my bottom line this quarter but hell deserve it.
The barter system is how america was founded. It closer to a value based system and closer to what democracy should be. A quick look at american history, shows the elite trying forceably to have america succumb to them and when that didn't work they worked their way into the financial system in america (and further but thats another story). They essentially indermined america, without guns and force, gained control through the money system. America was a value based economy in its early stages when it was by the people for the people. It is no longer. The constitution is not much more than paper now.
Of course most countries have succumbed to this, its not just America. America was last major force against the elite control in our earth's history, and they are now the biggest supporter of it.
, the gov. I mean, not it's citizens, though they inadvertanly or ignorantly acquiese like the rest of us.
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We should not bail it out, let the beast die.
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It needs realistic innovation to change. Realistic in that it is practical, scienctific viable, and affordable. Innovative in that it gives the country and its industry a creative edge in the world marketplace.
What was structured in the US over the last 8 years, was that the
US would be the policeman on the world beat, the financing party to many international deals, and the exporter of democracy. But not a exporter of goods and service of world demand.
We lost our competitive edge with aging industries and infrastructure.
That has been occurring even before the last 8 years. But with GWOT AFghanistan and Iraq. GWB adminstration was not focused on the industrail issues of energy and production in the country. Free enterprise and capitolism would be the driving mechanism. But with Japan selling more cars here than Detriot, and similar in other industries. Our competitive edge and our competitive drive was gone.
We lost a standard of excellence in the world marketplace as companies cut corners and foreign firm improved theirs.
So?
To get out of the hole. Innovative products for consumers that are energy efficient. Innovation redevelopment of the countries industries.
Create demands in the new developing markets of China, India, and South America. In other words.....a lot of work.
With the country headed to a benefit society, I don't see anyone willing to take it on. If Obama wins, innovation will be taxed and sent abroad. I just postphoned a $500,000 development project, till after the election. Why do it here with tax rates of presently 38% and more with a Obama win. I can do it else where where the tax rates are much less. With industries and labor that are more effiencent. I can do it with a foriegn patent.....take a royalty......pay US taxes of a individual.
So I miss the corporate tax rate here. The world still get a new product. But the US will miss the job creation, exportation and corporate taxes revenues. The US loses the creative edge that the technology would bring to it.
What was structured in the US over the last 8 years, was that the
US would be the policeman on the world beat, the financing party to many international deals, and the exporter of democracy. But not a exporter of goods and service of world demand.
We lost our competitive edge with aging industries and infrastructure.
That has been occurring even before the last 8 years. But with GWOT AFghanistan and Iraq. GWB adminstration was not focused on the industrail issues of energy and production in the country. Free enterprise and capitolism would be the driving mechanism. But with Japan selling more cars here than Detriot, and similar in other industries. Our competitive edge and our competitive drive was gone.
We lost a standard of excellence in the world marketplace as companies cut corners and foreign firm improved theirs.
So?
To get out of the hole. Innovative products for consumers that are energy efficient. Innovation redevelopment of the countries industries.
Create demands in the new developing markets of China, India, and South America. In other words.....a lot of work.
With the country headed to a benefit society, I don't see anyone willing to take it on. If Obama wins, innovation will be taxed and sent abroad. I just postphoned a $500,000 development project, till after the election. Why do it here with tax rates of presently 38% and more with a Obama win. I can do it else where where the tax rates are much less. With industries and labor that are more effiencent. I can do it with a foriegn patent.....take a royalty......pay US taxes of a individual.
So I miss the corporate tax rate here. The world still get a new product. But the US will miss the job creation, exportation and corporate taxes revenues. The US loses the creative edge that the technology would bring to it.
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BnaturAl: Unfortuneatly you'll get greed and malfeasance in any system. Democratic capitalism has the best chance for reasonable world peace (trading partners are less likely to go to war in a democracy, more co-operative). The problem with the system as I see it is that the average Joe accepts the declarations of corporate heads, inadvertantly allowing the greed, rather than dispersing profit within the workforce equally or at least in a more balanced way. Human value is now measured by status and or 'job position' rather than equality in contributions. My eight hour day ought to be just as valuable as any other, providing I performed well
I think everyone realizes its abhorrent to be paying sports stars and movie stars and corporate leaders the obnoxioius sums of money they get but no one seems willing to to stop buying what they sell. The labour movement made inroads into the system but has fallen short in my opinion. The greed of elite interests will fight to maintain the large gap between haves and the have nots in any system. I still think a value based economy in democratic capitalism has the best chance.
As for the current problem, I suggest giving that 700 billion back to american citizens! They say the purpose is to get the ecomony moving again, and that would do it. Instead they are propping up corporations that will continue to foster the inequaties of a greed based system, will add more profits to those who already have it and leave average Joes with less. Please help the rich??? Really, .... people!!!!!!!!!
Let the F***** pay the 700bl back with interest!I think everyone realizes its abhorrent to be paying sports stars and movie stars and corporate leaders the obnoxioius sums of money they get but no one seems willing to to stop buying what they sell. The labour movement made inroads into the system but has fallen short in my opinion. The greed of elite interests will fight to maintain the large gap between haves and the have nots in any system. I still think a value based economy in democratic capitalism has the best chance.
As for the current problem, I suggest giving that 700 billion back to american citizens! They say the purpose is to get the ecomony moving again, and that would do it. Instead they are propping up corporations that will continue to foster the inequaties of a greed based system, will add more profits to those who already have it and leave average Joes with less. Please help the rich??? Really, .... people!!!!!!!!!
Use the Payback to give the Taxpayer a Tax-break!
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I think the stimulus package was a big mistake. Like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
As to the mortgage crisis it was caused by far too many people who hadn't a clue on how to manage money getting sucked into over extending themselves thinking they had a "Right" to the "American Dream" of home ownership by unscroupulous banks & mortgage companies. It really was little more than a ponzi scheme and like all ponzi schemes it had to come crashing down eventually.
The solution to the mortgage problem is extremely simple.
Anyone facing foreclosure should have their mortgages converted to a 20-30 year fixed at the prevailing rate. Lending institutions will take a small hit due to the low initial payments made by the borrower but they caused the problem in the first place. At least people wouldn't be forced out on the street and the situation will begin to heal itself immediately. Having 100's of boarded up vacant houses in every town does nobody any good. All it does is further depress home values.
Next: Lending institutions need to have regulations re-applied because it's obvious they can't regulate themselves.
Next: Margin buying of stocks should be temporarily halted especially by hedge funds until the market calms down and only then can it be implemented very slowly. Borrowing money to buy stock is the reason for the crash of 1929 and it is the primary reason Wall Street is tanking now. The main differences between then & now is, back then "Joe the Plumber" could buy stocks for as little as 10 cents on the dollar, I think it's about 80 cents today. And now, hedge funds are the big margin buyers with Billions borrowed to finance their far flung portfolios.
As to the mortgage crisis it was caused by far too many people who hadn't a clue on how to manage money getting sucked into over extending themselves thinking they had a "Right" to the "American Dream" of home ownership by unscroupulous banks & mortgage companies. It really was little more than a ponzi scheme and like all ponzi schemes it had to come crashing down eventually.
The solution to the mortgage problem is extremely simple.
Anyone facing foreclosure should have their mortgages converted to a 20-30 year fixed at the prevailing rate. Lending institutions will take a small hit due to the low initial payments made by the borrower but they caused the problem in the first place. At least people wouldn't be forced out on the street and the situation will begin to heal itself immediately. Having 100's of boarded up vacant houses in every town does nobody any good. All it does is further depress home values.
Next: Lending institutions need to have regulations re-applied because it's obvious they can't regulate themselves.
Next: Margin buying of stocks should be temporarily halted especially by hedge funds until the market calms down and only then can it be implemented very slowly. Borrowing money to buy stock is the reason for the crash of 1929 and it is the primary reason Wall Street is tanking now. The main differences between then & now is, back then "Joe the Plumber" could buy stocks for as little as 10 cents on the dollar, I think it's about 80 cents today. And now, hedge funds are the big margin buyers with Billions borrowed to finance their far flung portfolios.
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ooby_dooby: I think the stimulus package was a big mistake. Like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.
As to the mortgage crisis it was caused by far too many people who hadn't a clue on how to manage money getting sucked into over extending themselves thinking they had a "Right" to the "American Dream" of home ownership by unscroupulous banks & mortgage companies. It really was little more than a ponzi scheme and like all ponzi schemes it had to come crashing down eventually.
The solution to the mortgage problem is extremely simple.
Anyone facing foreclosure should have their mortgages converted to a 20-30 year fixed at the prevailing rate. Lending institutions will take a small hit due to the low initial payments made by the borrower but they caused the problem in the first place. At least people wouldn't be forced out on the street and the situation will begin to heal itself immediately. Having 100's of boarded up vacant houses in every town does nobody any good. All it does is further depress home values.
Next: Lending institutions need to have regulations re-applied because it's obvious they can't regulate themselves.
Next: Margin buying of stocks should be temporarily halted especially by hedge funds until the market calms down and only then can it be implemented very slowly. Borrowing money to buy stock is the reason for the crash of 1929 and it is the primary reason Wall Street is tanking now. The main differences between then & now is, back then "Joe the Plumber" could buy stocks for as little as 10 cents on the dollar, I think it's about 80 cents today. And now, hedge funds are the big margin buyers with Billions borrowed to finance their far flung portfolios.
As to the mortgage crisis it was caused by far too many people who hadn't a clue on how to manage money getting sucked into over extending themselves thinking they had a "Right" to the "American Dream" of home ownership by unscroupulous banks & mortgage companies. It really was little more than a ponzi scheme and like all ponzi schemes it had to come crashing down eventually.
The solution to the mortgage problem is extremely simple.
Anyone facing foreclosure should have their mortgages converted to a 20-30 year fixed at the prevailing rate. Lending institutions will take a small hit due to the low initial payments made by the borrower but they caused the problem in the first place. At least people wouldn't be forced out on the street and the situation will begin to heal itself immediately. Having 100's of boarded up vacant houses in every town does nobody any good. All it does is further depress home values.
Next: Lending institutions need to have regulations re-applied because it's obvious they can't regulate themselves.
Next: Margin buying of stocks should be temporarily halted especially by hedge funds until the market calms down and only then can it be implemented very slowly. Borrowing money to buy stock is the reason for the crash of 1929 and it is the primary reason Wall Street is tanking now. The main differences between then & now is, back then "Joe the Plumber" could buy stocks for as little as 10 cents on the dollar, I think it's about 80 cents today. And now, hedge funds are the big margin buyers with Billions borrowed to finance their far flung portfolios.
I'm bumping this thread in view of what happened today. These guys in Washington must be reading my posts because they just put in place a plan to help people facing foreclosure, very similar to what I suggested except instead of a 20- 30 year fixed rate they made it 40 years and instead of the prevailing rate they set the rate at 3%. Does it make you all fuzzy knowing you got a celebrity like me on this board?
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Mine would be an across the board for corporations and brokerage houses and conglomerate first pay 15% of income/profiit/earnings...only then should all individual taxpayers can be ASKED to pay a price.
This set price of 2000.00 per working citizen is not fair period.