US is negotiating with Taliban (433)
Blues63: Why is this poll about the US? It's a coalition in Afghanistan; many nations came together in an effort to rid the world of supporters of Al-Quaeda.
It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.
Knowing OP........It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.
Blues63: Why is this poll about the US? It's a coalition in Afghanistan; many nations came together in an effort to rid the world of supporters of Al-Quaeda.
It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.
It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.
It's always been about the USA and always will be.Hey we're the ones who started the wars in Iraq & Afhhanistan aren't we and are all our troops who died in those wars just all our imagination.
Now Obama is talking about bringing some troops home when he promised during his whole campiagn that he was going to bring ALL not some but ALL the troops home.Or did some people in this country have selective earing or memory?
raphael118: you cant turn a bunch of hogs into race horses.
a civil war followed by the west sending cruise missles etc. etc. might work a lot better.we cant afford the astronomical sums of money forever.
a civil war followed by the west sending cruise missles etc. etc. might work a lot better.we cant afford the astronomical sums of money forever.
We've been borrowing money for along time from China wakeup.
We're proabaly still borrowing money from China to support the cause in Libya.
Blues63: Why is this poll about the US? It's a coalition in Afghanistan; many nations came together in an effort to rid the world of supporters of Al-Quaeda.
It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.
It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.
Didn't some country or countries pull out of both wars?
leigh2154: So if you feel this way my friend could not the same be said of doing nothing?
The thing is, that most "threats" are actually artificial, and non existent, even the name of a Al Quida was actually a name of the list, on which the names of all CIA middle east assets from Afghanistan - Russian war were - Bin Laden being one of them. - - - - -
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
Ccincy: It's always been about the USA and always will be.Hey we're the ones who started the wars in Iraq & Afhhanistan aren't we and are all our troops who died in those wars just all our imagination.
That's all part of the misinformation isn't it? The USA did not start either of those wars alone. Your second point doesn't make much sense to me, perhaps you could elaborate?
In response to: Now Obama is talking about bringing some troops home when he promised during his whole campiagn that he was going to bring ALL not some but ALL the troops home.Or did some people in this country have selective earing or memory?
Well, he can't can't just recall the troops without leaving a stable government behind, that's just irresponsible. Hence the need for a diplomatic resolution see?
Ccincy: It's funny how our country(USA) and other countries call what they do 'negoiating'.I suppose bombing other countries is 'negoiating' way way to funny.They make policial deals behind our backs all the time and we the citizens are stupid enough to believe that our leaders are going to make all our problems go away.
I have people accuse me of not knowing to which I'm speaking.I'm alot smarter then people give me credit for.
People piss and moan cause things aren't going the way they thought it would/should but they keep on voting these very smae people in office time and time again.Well they get what they pay for.
I have people accuse me of not knowing to which I'm speaking.I'm alot smarter then people give me credit for.
People piss and moan cause things aren't going the way they thought it would/should but they keep on voting these very smae people in office time and time again.Well they get what they pay for.
“Every country has the government it deserves.” - - - - Joseph Marie de Maistre
Blues63: That's all part of the misinformation isn't it? The USA did not start either of those wars alone. Your second point doesn't make much sense to me, perhaps you could elaborate?
Well, he can't can't just recall the troops without leaving a stable government behind, that's just irresponsible. Hence the need for a diplomatic resolution see?
Well, he can't can't just recall the troops without leaving a stable government behind, that's just irresponsible. Hence the need for a diplomatic resolution see?
What mis -inforamtion?
What doesn't make sense? Maybe you should elaborate yourself.
54xmax: The thing is, that most "threats" are actually artificial, and non existent, even the name of a Al Quida was actually a name of the list, on which the names of all CIA middle east assets from Afghanistan - Russian war were - Bin Laden being one of them. - - - - -
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
Some fanciful claims there my friend.
54xmax: The thing is, that most "threats" are actually artificial, and non existent, even the name of a Al Quida was actually a name of the list, on which the names of all CIA middle east assets from Afghanistan - Russian war were - Bin Laden being one of them. - - - - -
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
Watch someone boo hoo what you just posted.
Blues63: Some fanciful claims there my friend.
Well they this is how I see the whole situation - - - - I could go on and on much more in detail, but I do believe, it is useless, people that want to get to the bottom of things, can get same information I have, the ones that don't will not listen, nor hear what ever has been told to them, no matter how much evidence you show them. People in general simply don't want to believe, that they are sheep, fools, that chose to believe, that politicians care, and that BS they are being fed with, is actually a nice all american apple pie, and not load of crap - - - - one simply has to open the eyes, be sceptical, and start checking things on it's own - - - - - starting asking questions - - - - I did my homework - - - -
Let me try that again.
This is what I meant that didn't make sense to me. Don't you think our nation is tired of the funerals? We haven't lost as many as the US, but it's not a competition. Public opinion appears to view this war as unpopular. So, don't you think a diplomatic resuolution may prevent further loss of life?
Ccincy: It's always been about the USA and always will be.Hey we're the ones who started the wars in Iraq & Afhhanistan aren't we....
I effectively dealt with this point.
...and are all our troops who died in those wars just all our imagination.
I effectively dealt with this point.
...and are all our troops who died in those wars just all our imagination.
This is what I meant that didn't make sense to me. Don't you think our nation is tired of the funerals? We haven't lost as many as the US, but it's not a competition. Public opinion appears to view this war as unpopular. So, don't you think a diplomatic resuolution may prevent further loss of life?
54xmax: - - one simply has to open the eyes, be sceptical, and start checking things on it's own - - - - - starting asking questions - - - - I did my homework - - - -
So did I and I didn't arrive at your conclusions, however, so be it.
I feel it does people a disservice to refer to them as blind, or sheep merely for the reason that they don't agree with you.
54xmax: Well they this is how I see the whole situation - - - - I could go on and on much more in detail, but I do believe, it is useless, people that want to get to the bottom of things, can get same information I have, the ones that don't will not listen, nor hear what ever has been told to them, no matter how much evidence you show them. People in general simply don't want to believe, that they are sheep, fools, that chose to believe, that politicians care, and that BS they are being fed with, is actually a nice all american apple pie, and not load of crap - - - - one simply has to open the eyes, be sceptical, and start checking things on it's own - - - - - starting asking questions - - - - I did my homework - - - -
Some people walk around with blinders on all their lives like to led around like and being spoon fed all the BS like good little sheeple.Well I'm not one of them sheeple.I can spoon feed myself thank you very much
I had a person on here one time tell me that I was un-patriotic.I laughed at that one.
Blues63: Let me try that again.
This is what I meant that didn't make sense to me. Don't you think our nation is tired of the funerals? We haven't lost as many as the US, but it's not a competition. Public opinion appears to view this war as unpopular. So, don't you think a diplomatic resuolution may prevent further loss of life?
This is what I meant that didn't make sense to me. Don't you think our nation is tired of the funerals? We haven't lost as many as the US, but it's not a competition. Public opinion appears to view this war as unpopular. So, don't you think a diplomatic resuolution may prevent further loss of life?
If nations are so tired of wars then why do they start them and keep on funding them then?
I don't see how negoiating is going to pervent more deaths.I wish someone would explain to me how that's possible.
Ccincy: Some people walk around with blinders on all their lives like to led around like and being spoon fed all the BS like good little sheeple.Well I'm not one of them sheeple.I can spoon feed myself thank you very much
I had a person on here one time tell me that I was un-patriotic.I laughed at that one.
I had a person on here one time tell me that I was un-patriotic.I laughed at that one.
Murdoch - - - who is not with us is against us crap
Think I'll bow out of this here thread and go get Fizikal in the Fizikal thread.I think the person meant Physical.
Ccincy: If nations are so tired of wars then why do they start them and keep on funding them then?
Generally, that's as old as history in itself. Specifically in reference to Iraq and Afghanistan~well you know the history.
In response to: I don't see how negoiating is going to pervent more deaths.I wish someone would explain to me how that's possible.
Well, by gaining a diplomatic resolution, there may be an effective withdrawal of troops, therefore, no more troops die in that theatre.
54xmax: The thing is, that most "threats" are actually artificial, and non existent, even the name of a Al Quida was actually a name of the list, on which the names of all CIA middle east assets from Afghanistan - Russian war were - Bin Laden being one of them. - - - - -
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
When one's starts looking things out of the box, getting info from many sources, when one starts figuring out, in which way propaganda works, and in what way BS is being sold to people, when one starts understanding the bigger picture, and actual situation of middle east and it's culture, then one sees, that what "we know" is mostly disinformation, or very much exaggerated information, where mouse turns in to the elephant.
How many cases are, where your government admitted on a later date, that reasons for war were made up - - - - - Fiction. How many times CIA admitted that they were faking evidence - - - - how much lies one has to hear to start doubting what politicians are saying ( I am talking about our's too, not just yours ) - - - - - The fact of the matter is - - - - - What "we" are being told, and what the truth is, are two different stories - - - - - Doing nothing - - - - is sometimes better then doing something, cos what ever has been done, for one example, destroyed cultural heritage of Iraq ( Wiping out cultural identity of the nation ), second, billions of dollars gone missing, cos of the war, Afghanistan being used for a pipeline route, that they could not build while Taliban were in power, so they had to go, and the route through Iran was not an option.
America has to import around 40% of it's oil now, and the consumption is growing. The Region of Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, and Turkmenistan is ripe with oil, estimates are over 60 billion of barrels, not that oil has to be transported - - - - Pakistan allowed for pipeline to be build, Afghanistan under Taliban didn't - - - - The American bases are positioned so, that they protect the pipeline - - - - this war is about oil, nothing else, next one will be about water - - - -
When you one sees the real background, and history of mayor players involved, then one seas the real reasons for wars - - - -
But one has to BS people, and play on the patriotic note, to get public support - - - - the propaganda tactics used, were the ones that Goebbels invented - - - - Murdoch simply made them work better with the technology of mass media we got now. Perfect example "Fox News"
Max, the last thing I want to do is offend you, but the above is an example of you doing EXACTLY what you complain about....I assume you do realize the US has more than enough "natural" resources and, if the need ever does arise, can sustain herself without depending on "oil" from the ME...We cannot, however, live in a terrorist controlled world......
Blues63: Oh, for sure. it's an age old political tactic historians refer to as 'the fear of the common enemy'. But to refer to those who follow as sheep is a little harsh in my view. Some people aren't interested in politics, so be it. Many don't have the time to investigate current affairs, for their wordly concerns dominate their lives~again, so be it. However, as you may know, I've studied history at an academic level and I'm very careful and sceptical of so-called internet 'truths'.
There I have to agree with you - - - - I didn't study history on the "Academic level", that doesn't mean I didn't or that I don't study history as it is something I enjoy doing - - - - and not an "internet history", you might be surprised, I actually read books, on history, psychology,y, sociology, and technology. and religion. I read scientific articles, and I try to get my hands on as many information from as independent sources as possible ( I work in the air Traffic Control, so I got time to do these things
). It is not just about history, one has to go in to the state of mind, the society, one is growing, history from which the person comes from, cultural heritage, and religion. - - - - - But I would be harsh about it, exactly cos of the fact, that - - - - if they don't have time, ok, but then still chose to believe, and to follow, - - - - to live in a bubble - - - Everyone of us has to take care of our selves, that doesn't mean that one can't use one's brains - - - - - I would also reflect on one thing - - - - in general speaking - - - studying on academical level - - - what does that mean - - - if one is told what to read, that is not for me an informed studying, if one reads what one is told, ok, but if also one try's to recheck the information from a different angle, from different sources, then one might see a different picture, and in the end, history is written by victors - - - and how many times, history changed, cos of the political situation has changed, or political system has changed - - - - - Nothing is as simple as it seems - - - - -
leigh2154: Max, the last thing I want to do is offend you, but the above is an example of you doing EXACTLY what you complain about....I assume you do realize the US has more than enough "natural" resources and, if the need ever does arise, can sustain herself without depending on "oil" from the ME...We cannot, however, live in a terrorist controlled world......
Well I think we will agree now that we disagree again
54xmax: There I have to agree with you - - - - I didn't study history on the "Academic level", that doesn't mean I didn't or that I don't study history as it is something I enjoy doing - - - - and not an "internet history", you might be surprised, I actually read books, on history, psychology,y, sociology, and technology. and religion. I read scientific articles, and I try to get my hands on as many information from as independent sources as possible ( I work in the air Traffic Control, so I got time to do these things ). It is not just about history, one has to go in to the state of mind, the society, one is growing, history from which the person comes from, cultural heritage, and religion. - - - - - But I would be harsh about it, exactly cos of the fact, that - - - - if they don't have time, ok, but then still chose to believe, and to follow, - - - - to live in a bubble - - - Everyone of us has to take care of our selves, that doesn't mean that one can't use one's brains - - - - -
I would also reflect on one thing - - - - in general speaking - - - studying on academical level - - - what does that mean - - - if one is told what to read, that is not for me an informed studying, if one reads what one is told, ok, but if also one try's to recheck the information from a different angle, from different sources, then one might see a different picture, and in the end, history is written by victors - - - and how many times, history changed, cos of the political situation has changed, or political system has changed - - - - - Nothing is as simple as it seems - - - - -
I would also reflect on one thing - - - - in general speaking - - - studying on academical level - - - what does that mean - - - if one is told what to read, that is not for me an informed studying, if one reads what one is told, ok, but if also one try's to recheck the information from a different angle, from different sources, then one might see a different picture, and in the end, history is written by victors - - - and how many times, history changed, cos of the political situation has changed, or political system has changed - - - - - Nothing is as simple as it seems - - - - -
To add - - - - I think, that the truth is then found somewhere in between
54xmax: There I have to agree with you - - - - I didn't study history on the "Academic level", that doesn't mean I didn't or that I don't study history as it is something I enjoy doing - - - - and not an "internet history", you might be surprised, I actually read books, on history, psychology,y, sociology, and technology. and religion. I read scientific articles, and I try to get my hands on as many information from as independent sources as possible ( I work in the air Traffic Control, so I got time to do these things ). It is not just about history, one has to go in to the state of mind, the society, one is growing, history from which the person comes from, cultural heritage, and religion. - - - - - But I would be harsh about it, exactly cos of the fact, that - - - - if they don't have time, ok, but then still chose to believe, and to follow, - - - - to live in a bubble - - - Everyone of us has to take care of our selves, that doesn't mean that one can't use one's brains - - - - -
I would also reflect on one thing - - - - in general speaking - - - studying on academical level - - - what does that mean - - - if one is told what to read, that is not for me an informed studying, if one reads what one is told, ok, but if also one try's to recheck the information from a different angle, from different sources, then one might see a different picture, and in the end, history is written by victors - - - and how many times, history changed, cos of the political situation has changed, or political system has changed - - - - - Nothing is as simple as it seems - - - - -
I would also reflect on one thing - - - - in general speaking - - - studying on academical level - - - what does that mean - - - if one is told what to read, that is not for me an informed studying, if one reads what one is told, ok, but if also one try's to recheck the information from a different angle, from different sources, then one might see a different picture, and in the end, history is written by victors - - - and how many times, history changed, cos of the political situation has changed, or political system has changed - - - - - Nothing is as simple as it seems - - - - -
Well, it would appear that we are both well read. History, encompasses all aspects of culture, politics and economics~it is not merely a collection of battles and dates~far from it. I disagree that studying on an academic level is merely being spoon-fed a list of books and then following the lecturer's opinions. It is much more than that. One has to view all the arguments and formulate an opinion based on the extant evidence. Furthermore, documentary evidence is not merely the legacy of books, therefore that old axiom of 'History being written by the victors' is becoming less and less relevant, and has been for some time.
54xmax: To add - - - - I think, that the truth is then found somewhere in between
Yes, take the extremes of opinion and what lies halfway often embraces logic.
Blues63: Yes, take the extremes of opinion and what lies halfway often embraces logic.
A lot to be said for logic, experience, common sense, and of course simple math...2 X 2 really does equal 4......
leigh2154: A lot to be said for logic, experience, common sense, and of course simple math...2 X 2 really does equal 4......
Blues63: Well, it would appear that we are both well read. History, encompasses all aspects of culture, politics and economics~it is not merely a collection of battles and dates~far from it. I disagree that studying on an academic level is merely being spoon-fed a list of books and then following the lecturer's opinions. It is much more than that. One has to view all the arguments and formulate an opinion based on the extant evidence. Furthermore, documentary evidence is not merely the legacy of books, therefore that old axiom of 'History being written by the victors' is becoming less and less relevant, and has been for some time.
Well - - - - - I was never an academic sort
- - - - - But as I said it comes down to the school system of the country - - - - So I will disagree with you on the "History being written by the victors" - - - - for example I know for a fact, what is being taught in Russia about history of WW 2 for example and it is not exactly the same as it is being taught in EU for example. But they are teaching the history that suites the political agenda, and system . . . . ( I know as I talked to historians from that country, that have to teach what they are being told, and they also told me, what they have been taught in school, that again it differs from what they have to teach now . . . . . ( Russia saved america during world war two, and helped America with material, and america didn't do anything for Russia ) - - - is one of the things how they present things - - - - -
54xmax: Well - - - - - I was never an academic sort - - - - - But as I said it comes down to the school system of the country - - - - So I will disagree with you on the "History being written by the victors" - - - - for example I know for a fact, what is being taught in Russia about history of WW 2 for example and it is not exactly the same as it is being taught in EU for example. But they are teaching the history that suites the political agenda, and system . . . . ( I know as I talked to historians from that country, that have to teach what they are being told, and they also told me, what they have been taught in school, that again it differs from what they have to teach now . . . . .
( Russia saved america during world war two, and helped America with material, and america didn't do anything for Russia ) - - - is one of the things how they present things - - - - -
( Russia saved america during world war two, and helped America with material, and america didn't do anything for Russia ) - - - is one of the things how they present things - - - - -
Oh, for sure. Under such a regime the education system doesn't promote research, or limits accessibility to certain evidence. Then the axiom becomes the so-called 'truth'. A good student will research the source as much as the material contained therein. However, since the fall of the Iron Curtain things must be changing. Having said that, the Soviet contribution to WWII was often down played in western history books, but that is seen as a product of the Cold War and is now recognised as such.
I wish I could continue this discussion with you Max, but I must go to bed. It's midnight here. Thanks for a pleasant conversation all.
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It would appear that this poll is yet another veiled anti-american diatribe.