US is negotiating with Taliban (433)
Yes, you are leaving VICTORIOUS from Afghanistan.
leigh2154: US did not formally declare war on Afghanistan, if it makes you feel better to make false statements, then by all means go for it.....you agenda has become so boring Chris....
Unwinnable is not even a word!!
Unwinnable is not even a word!!
ttom500: Oh my .......am about to have a heart attack here.
The three of you will just have to start a new thread. This one is far too serious for frivolity
gsmonks: Negotiating? It's about bloody time. As to the position, "These are the people guilty of 9-11!", your point is? The Taliban exists because they were created jointly by the US (specifically the CIA) and Pakistan during the Cold War. The CIA and US foreign policy have been playing a dirty game for many years, and have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. 9-11 is a scrape on the knee compared to the humanitarian crimes the CIA and US foreign policy are guilty of. It's really a case of the chickens coming home to roost.
The US has long got away with thinking it's untouchable, and above being included in the death and destruction it has engineered in other countries.
As to negotiating with the Taliban, for the US this is like a father negotiating with a son he trained to be a killer, turned him loose to work some agenda, and when the dirty deed was done spat in his face instead of saying so much as "well done".
In other words, chances of making things right aren't good, but the onus is on the US to make the effort, regardless the outcome.
The US has long got away with thinking it's untouchable, and above being included in the death and destruction it has engineered in other countries.
As to negotiating with the Taliban, for the US this is like a father negotiating with a son he trained to be a killer, turned him loose to work some agenda, and when the dirty deed was done spat in his face instead of saying so much as "well done".
In other words, chances of making things right aren't good, but the onus is on the US to make the effort, regardless the outcome.
You want some blunt words on this? OK.......screw em. Yes screw the bloody Taliban, alQeada and the Pakistani/Iranians that support them.
They murdered 3000 people on 911 and you want to kiss and coddle them.
Any time....I get a chance to do just that.....which has been several times in my life and more in the future I hope. I do.
The Taliban came from the Mushadeen....a invention of one Perez Mushareff...who used them in operation Cargil on India. But believe what you will. Feel free to check that out independently.
ttom500: But we got bin Laden!!
When?
leigh2154: The highlighted is taken out of context...it is propaganda at it worst...
The rest of your post is garbage.....JMO
The rest of your post is garbage.....JMO
Oh, really? You must have missed out on all those times the US backed corrupt regimes to "balance things out" with the USSR.
How about when the US bombed Guatemala's capital when Guatemala nationalised its oil reserves? We did that here in Canada, and the US painted Trudeau as a "red".
How about when Carter signed an arms deal with Indonesia, while Indonesia was committing genocide in East Timor?
I could go on for pages, here.
Propaganda and garbage? Looks like you bought into it.
gsmonks: Negotiating? It's about bloody time. As to the position, "These are the people guilty of 9-11!", your point is? The Taliban exists because they were created jointly by the US (specifically the CIA) and Pakistan during the Cold War. The CIA and US foreign policy have been playing a dirty game for many years, and have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. 9-11 is a scrape on the knee compared to the humanitarian crimes the CIA and US foreign policy are guilty of. It's really a case of the chickens coming home to roost.
The US has long got away with thinking it's untouchable, and above being included in the death and destruction it has engineered in other countries.
As to negotiating with the Taliban, for the US this is like a father negotiating with a son he trained to be a killer, turned him loose to work some agenda, and when the dirty deed was done spat in his face instead of saying so much as "well done".
In other words, chances of making things right aren't good, but the onus is on the US to make the effort, regardless the outcome.
The US has long got away with thinking it's untouchable, and above being included in the death and destruction it has engineered in other countries.
As to negotiating with the Taliban, for the US this is like a father negotiating with a son he trained to be a killer, turned him loose to work some agenda, and when the dirty deed was done spat in his face instead of saying so much as "well done".
In other words, chances of making things right aren't good, but the onus is on the US to make the effort, regardless the outcome.
haven't changed your spots,have you?gsmonks: Oh, really? You must have missed out on all those times the US backed corrupt regimes to "balance things out" with the USSR.
How about when the US bombed Guatemala's capital when Guatemala nationalised its oil reserves? We did that here in Canada, and the US painted Trudeau as a "red".
How about when Carter signed an arms deal with Indonesia, while Indonesia was committing genocide in East Timor?
I could go on for pages, here.
Propaganda and garbage? Looks like you bought into it.
How about when the US bombed Guatemala's capital when Guatemala nationalised its oil reserves? We did that here in Canada, and the US painted Trudeau as a "red".
How about when Carter signed an arms deal with Indonesia, while Indonesia was committing genocide in East Timor?
I could go on for pages, here.
Propaganda and garbage? Looks like you bought into it.
ttom500: You want some blunt words on this? OK.......screw em. Yes screw the bloody Taliban, alQeada and the Pakistani/Iranians that support them.
They murdered 3000 people on 911 and you want to kiss and coddle them.
Any time....I get a chance to do just that.....which has been several times in my life and more in the future I hope. I do.
The Taliban came from the Mushadeen....a invention of one Perez Mushareff...who used them in operation Cargil on India. But believe what you will. Feel free to check that out independently.
They murdered 3000 people on 911 and you want to kiss and coddle them.
Any time....I get a chance to do just that.....which has been several times in my life and more in the future I hope. I do.
The Taliban came from the Mushadeen....a invention of one Perez Mushareff...who used them in operation Cargil on India. But believe what you will. Feel free to check that out independently.
3000 dead? Big deal! The US is guilty of the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and then has the presumptuous arrogance to tell the world its hands are clean!
You have a problem with facts, Conrad? Maybe you'd better do a little research.
chris27292729: Yes, you are leaving VICTORIOUS from Afghanistan.
well,your Alex didn't!gsmonks: 3000 dead? Big deal! The US is guilty of the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and then has the presumptuous arrogance to tell the world its hands are clean!
You sad Man you!gsmonks: Oh, really? You must have missed out on all those times the US backed corrupt regimes to "balance things out" with the USSR.
How about when the US bombed Guatemala's capital when Guatemala nationalised its oil reserves? We did that here in Canada, and the US painted Trudeau as a "red".
How about when Carter signed an arms deal with Indonesia, while Indonesia was committing genocide in East Timor?
I could go on for pages, here.
Propaganda and garbage? Looks like you bought into it.
How about when the US bombed Guatemala's capital when Guatemala nationalised its oil reserves? We did that here in Canada, and the US painted Trudeau as a "red".
How about when Carter signed an arms deal with Indonesia, while Indonesia was committing genocide in East Timor?
I could go on for pages, here.
Propaganda and garbage? Looks like you bought into it.
well,your Agenda is just about as transparent as could be,Sunshine! ttom500: Chris....so you try to say that 911 was not a attack? Come on Chris even you cannot be that blind. 911 was most definitely an attack. A military target was selected....the Pentagon. 1000s of civilians were killed.
So? The US was not going to Afghanistan on a bin Laden hunt with two sheriffs from Mayberry, USA (with only one with a single bullet in his gun).... just to be political correct for you or other European librals that want to play word games.
Why you are trying to twist and turn things.My post was in refference what NATO considers an attack,from one country against another,and a terrorist attack on 9/11, according to NATO chapter,at the time,it wasn't an attach,of one country against another.Is considered a crime to be a liberal in USA???. The indisputable fact remains,that US attacked Afghanistan FIRST and NATO followed long after.So? The US was not going to Afghanistan on a bin Laden hunt with two sheriffs from Mayberry, USA (with only one with a single bullet in his gun).... just to be political correct for you or other European librals that want to play word games.
chris27292729: In Pakistan well done.
Chris, these guys use borders like they are private sanctionaries made for them. In Pakistan or in What ever it is Stan, bin Laden was going to be hunted till he fell.
Does the US owe Afghanistan a rebuilding? Did the Russians stay around to rebuild that country following the Afghan/Russia war?
See any Rubles heading into Afghanistan for the damages done?
They did not spend a ruble in reparations.
Maybe Iran and Pakistan should do the rebuilding here. They both aided bin Laden in the 911 attack. One harboring him post 911. The other aiding him with transit of the hijackers.
Today Pakistan hides Mohammed Omar the leader of the Taliban. He is the one that organized the students from the Jhadist Universities of Peshwar, Pakistan to kick out the Northern Alliance. Had the Northern Alliance been in power, bin Laden did not have a place to organize alQeada.
gsmonks: 3000 dead? Big deal! The US is guilty of the deaths of hundreds of thousands, and then has the presumptuous arrogance to tell the world its hands are clean!
Name of a few of those dead for us, please. Take their cases to the World court. Am sure it will be heard. Do a song a dance for your buddies, the Taliban and alQeada, that stone women to death and execute other under goal posts.
Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.
(More on Sunday.)
Haroon Siddiqui, the Star's editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursdays and Sundays. hsiddiq@thestar.ca
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.
(More on Sunday.)
Haroon Siddiqui, the Star's editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursdays and Sundays. hsiddiq@thestar.ca
chris27292729: Why you are trying to twist and turn things.My post was in refference what NATO considers an attack,from one country against another,and a terrorist attack on 9/11, according to NATO chapter,at the time,it wasn't an attach,of one country against another.Is considered a crime to be a liberal in USA???. The indisputable fact remains,that US attacked Afghanistan FIRST and NATO followed long after.
Does the NATO-Charter state at what point in time it has to come to the support of a Member?BTW,how long is "Long After"?
Conrad73: haven't changed your spots,have you?
SO Do do you But your one admission is on record,am sure you remember which one. chris27292729: Why you are trying to twist and turn things.My post was in refference what NATO considers an attack,from one country against another,and a terrorist attack on 9/11, according to NATO chapter,at the time,it wasn't an attach,of one country against another.Is considered a crime to be a liberal in USA???. The indisputable fact remains,that US attacked Afghanistan FIRST and NATO followed long after.
Me twist things? Yikes Chris. The Taliban were the government of a country....Afghanistan.....when 911 occurred. bin Laden 911 attack on the US was sanctioned and supported by the Taliban of Afghanistan, by the Iranians, and by the Pakistani.
The 911 v Iran court case has 135 pages of charges, testimony and evidence on Iran's participation in 911.
911 was a nation state attack. Just executed by a para military organization, alQeada.
gsmonks: Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.
(More on Sunday.)
Haroon Siddiqui, the Star's editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursdays and Sundays. hsiddiq@thestar.ca
Editorials!By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.
(More on Sunday.)
Haroon Siddiqui, the Star's editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursdays and Sundays. hsiddiq@thestar.ca
Agenda,Sunshine,agenda!
Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.
(More on Sunday.)
Haroon Siddiqui, the Star's editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursdays and Sundays. hsiddiq@thestar.ca
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
"If it becomes part of the public record that there have been 1 million deaths and it later turns out that it was only 100,000, then people will say, `Fine, it wasn't all that bad.'
"But 100,000 dead is still a great tragedy, and the Iraq adventure has been an utter and complete disaster at every level."
How many injured Iraqis?
At least 125,000. That's "quite firmly established," says Hamit Dardagan, another IBC co-founder. "It's not an estimate, but a tally or compilation of known injuries."
As for Iraqi refugees, it is well established by United Nations agencies that more than 4 million have been displaced: 1.2 million in Syria, 800,000 in Jordan and the rest internally – and barely surviving.
James Paul, executive director of Global Policy Forum, which monitors policy making at the United Nations, says: "Considering the number of the dead and displaced, this is probably the biggest humanitarian crisis in the world."
You wouldn't know that listening to the politicians in North America or following the media.
(More on Sunday.)
Haroon Siddiqui, the Star's editorial page editor emeritus, appears Thursdays and Sundays. hsiddiq@thestar.ca
Conrad73: Editorials!
Agenda,Sunshine,agenda!
and look what Shysters you quote!Agenda,Sunshine,agenda!
Conrad73: well,your Alex didn't!
And all of them after Alexander, with their tales between their legs,am sure GWB and Rumsfeld didn't know anything about Afghan history at the time. Why you didn't forwarned them Conrad???? gsmonks: You have a problem with facts, Conrad? Maybe you'd better do a little research.
I did some research and know that this statement is a big fat lie;
gsmonks: The Taliban exists because they were created jointly by the US (specifically the CIA) and Pakistan during the Cold War.
gsmonks: Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
You bet!
Haroon Siddiqui:
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Better recheck the reputation, methodology and refusal to allow examination of the raw data used to compile the poll and the Lancelet study Haroon. You will find they have been discredited.
Haroon Siddiqui:
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
The only realistic entity keeping score.
gsmonks: You have a problem with facts, Conrad? Maybe you'd better do a little research.
I did some research and know that this statement is a big fat lie;
gsmonks: The Taliban exists because they were created jointly by the US (specifically the CIA) and Pakistan during the Cold War.
gsmonks: Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
You bet!
Haroon Siddiqui:
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Better recheck the reputation, methodology and refusal to allow examination of the raw data used to compile the poll and the Lancelet study Haroon. You will find they have been discredited.
Haroon Siddiqui:
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
His group, in turn, has been attacked for underestimating the casualties. But he insists: "We should not exaggerate. We ought not to debase the currency of death.
The only realistic entity keeping score.
Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
Just a question here. How many of those Iraq deathes and kidnappings were done by the Islamic foreign fighters, alQeada of Iraq, former Saddam Hussien henchmen, and Iranian agents that came into the country? Got any numbers for that?
Because when US forces did murder Iraqi civilians (and there were some)....under our UMCJ...they were charged and tried for the criminial act. Until you can define the actual acts of crime from one another.....you got a big problem in making criminal cases.
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
Just a question here. How many of those Iraq deathes and kidnappings were done by the Islamic foreign fighters, alQeada of Iraq, former Saddam Hussien henchmen, and Iranian agents that came into the country? Got any numbers for that?
Because when US forces did murder Iraqi civilians (and there were some)....under our UMCJ...they were charged and tried for the criminial act. Until you can define the actual acts of crime from one another.....you got a big problem in making criminal cases.
Conrad73: Editorials!
Agenda,Sunshine,agenda!
Agenda,Sunshine,agenda!
Facts, Conrad, facts.
What's your problem with the facts? Fact: Indonesia committed genocide in East Timor. Fact: several journalists were there and were murdered, some of them known to me. Fact: they were murdered with arms supplied by the US, who KNEW what they were being used for.
I used to write music for documentaries, Conrad. Some of the guys I worked with are now dead. Some of the stories they were covering were atrocities connected with US foreign policy.
So kindly keep your ignorant b.s. to yourself.
Conrad73: well,your Alex didn't!
ttom500: Here are some facts and stats. Read 'em, and tell me that the deaths of 3000 warrants this:
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
Just a question here. How many of those Iraq deathes and kidnappings were done by the Islamic foreign fighters, alQeada of Iraq, former Saddam Hussien henchmen, and Iranian agents that came into the country? Got any numbers for that?
Because when US forces did murder Iraqi civilians (and there were some)....under our UMCJ...they were charged and tried for the criminial act. Until you can define the actual acts of crime from one another.....you got a big problem in making criminal cases.
By Haroon Siddiqui Editorial Page (from the Toronto Star)
How many civilians have been killed, maimed and displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan? I spoke to four leading experts on this grim topic, which governments avoid and the media don't seem to care much about.
Gen. Tommy Franks, who oversaw the U.S. invasions of both Afghanistan and Iraq, famously said: "We don't do body counts."
His words now headline the website of Iraq Body Count, the U.K.-based non-profit group that does count the Iraqi dead.
Others do as well, albeit periodically. The latest is a British polling firm that puts the Iraqi dead at 1.22 million. That's roughly five times the number killed in the conflict in the former Yugoslavia.
Opinion Research Business conducted face-to-face interviews last month with a representative sample of 1,461 Iraqis.
Nearly one in two said their households had suffered at least one death by violence. Many reported multiple deaths. Projecting the findings on to Iraq's 4 million households, ORB estimated the death toll at more than a million.
The methodology is not universally accepted, though variations of it have been used to measure mortality figures in the conflicts in Congo, Kosovo, Sudan, etc.
Questions were also raised last year about a study by Johns Hopkins School of Public Health, done in partnership with Al Mustansiriya University in Baghdad.
Surveyors knocked on 1,849 doors asking if the household had suffered a death by violence. Projecting the responses nationally, the study put the toll at 654,965.
About a third of the deaths were attributed to coalition forces. Responsibility for 45 per cent of the deaths couldn't be determined.
The Iraq Body Count count, updated daily, stood yesterday at "between 72,596 and 79,187."
The group, run by academics and peace activists, insists on corroborating every death from two reliable sources – police, hospital and mortuary records, media and NGO reports.
The estimate is "irrefutable," says John Sloboda, professor of psychology at Keele University, and a co-founder of IBC. "Nobody can say that fewer people have died. There are many deaths that go unrecorded – kidnappings, assassinations, disappearances, etc.
"The death toll could be twice our number, but it could not possibly be 10 times higher," he told me, referring to the other studies.
Just a question here. How many of those Iraq deathes and kidnappings were done by the Islamic foreign fighters, alQeada of Iraq, former Saddam Hussien henchmen, and Iranian agents that came into the country? Got any numbers for that?
Because when US forces did murder Iraqi civilians (and there were some)....under our UMCJ...they were charged and tried for the criminial act. Until you can define the actual acts of crime from one another.....you got a big problem in making criminal cases.
Gee . . . George W. Bush propaganda, almost word-for-word. Seems it's still working its magic.
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The US has long got away with thinking it's untouchable, and above being included in the death and destruction it has engineered in other countries.
As to negotiating with the Taliban, for the US this is like a father negotiating with a son he trained to be a killer, turned him loose to work some agenda, and when the dirty deed was done spat in his face instead of saying so much as "well done".
In other words, chances of making things right aren't good, but the onus is on the US to make the effort, regardless the outcome.
The highlighted is taken out of context...it is propaganda at it worst...
The rest of your post is garbage.....JMO