riots in London (499)
tomcatwarne: Police funding cuts may also play a role. Everyone knows that police numbers are set to be thinned out. This can give potential offenders a confidence boost. The vandalism that mired the recent 'cuts' protest may have acted as a template too. If middle class students feel they can smash up public and private property because they have to pay more for their education, then, so the logic might run, why wouldn't disadvantaged youths with little access to any education feel justified in raiding a megastore?
This isn't helped by a few on the fringe of the anti-cuts movement describing these outbreaks of criminality as if they represented some form of 'resistance'. This contributes to a perception that criminal damage is an acceptable form of political participation, even though, in this case, it is more of a diabolical form of entertainment. While individuals are ultimately responsible for their own actions, it would be prudent if some commentators were a little more careful about what they encouraged young people to do.
The Metropolitan police, and some senior officers especially, also bear some responsibility. They have an unfortunate habit of attempting to cover up serious errors, especially when these have led to the deaths of civilians. In Brixton, for example, Smiley Culture, a local celebrity and Reggae star, died during a police raid on his home this year. For many locals, this death has not been satisfactorily explained and remains highly suspicious. More recently, we have seen senior police officers resign over the News International hacking scandal. The police have been too close to and too keen to protect powerful actors, especially in the media, for a number of years. They have used these connections to spin media events involving the police. This means that even when the Met engages in lawful killing (of an armed suspect, for example), many ordinary citizens are unsure whether to trust the police's account. They are the boys that cried wolf too many times.
This isn't helped by a few on the fringe of the anti-cuts movement describing these outbreaks of criminality as if they represented some form of 'resistance'. This contributes to a perception that criminal damage is an acceptable form of political participation, even though, in this case, it is more of a diabolical form of entertainment. While individuals are ultimately responsible for their own actions, it would be prudent if some commentators were a little more careful about what they encouraged young people to do.
The Metropolitan police, and some senior officers especially, also bear some responsibility. They have an unfortunate habit of attempting to cover up serious errors, especially when these have led to the deaths of civilians. In Brixton, for example, Smiley Culture, a local celebrity and Reggae star, died during a police raid on his home this year. For many locals, this death has not been satisfactorily explained and remains highly suspicious. More recently, we have seen senior police officers resign over the News International hacking scandal. The police have been too close to and too keen to protect powerful actors, especially in the media, for a number of years. They have used these connections to spin media events involving the police. This means that even when the Met engages in lawful killing (of an armed suspect, for example), many ordinary citizens are unsure whether to trust the police's account. They are the boys that cried wolf too many times.
Everyone has access to education in this country,it's whether they bother to turn up is the problem.You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. Just because they have no education, in your opinion,does NOT justify going on the rampage and destroying people's homes and businesses .
As for your comments about our police force,talk about give a dog a bad name. Tell me any country in the world today that hasn't got corruption in it's rank and file.
I would also add, tell me a country that isn't making cuts affecting it's people.We are not alone,so stop putting the boot in.
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bestbefore: Everyone has access to education in this country,it's whether they bother to turn up is the problem.You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. Just because they have no education, in your opinion,does NOT justify going on the rampage and destroying people's homes and businesses .
As for your comments about our police force,talk about give a dog a bad name. Tell me any country in the world today that hasn't got corruption in it's rank and file.
I would also add, tell me a country that isn't making cuts affecting it's people.We are not alone,so stop putting the boot in.
As for your comments about our police force,talk about give a dog a bad name. Tell me any country in the world today that hasn't got corruption in it's rank and file.
I would also add, tell me a country that isn't making cuts affecting it's people.We are not alone,so stop putting the boot in.
I suggest you don't take things out of context and read the whole, article, saying other countries do similar things does not make it right. I take exception to your accusation I am putting the boot in, when the article I quoted is logical and reasonable, I think your comment,putting the boot in, smacks of hooliganism.
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tomcatwarne: I suggest you don't take things out of context and read the whole, article, saying other countries do similar things does not make it right. I take exception to your accusation I am putting the boot in, when the article I quoted is logical and reasonable, I think your comment,putting the boot in, smacks of hooliganism.
I think at 71 I'm a bit too old to be called a hooligan don't you.
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bestbefore: I think at 71 I'm a bit too old to be called a hooligan don't you.
Then why reduce yourself to this kind on comment, I know you can argue in a reasonable way.
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The Met's actions have contributed to a general discontent and mistrust of the police. This is what gives cover to criminals who fancy a new pair of trainers, a TV, or just to burn a priceless building down. Policing in a free society requires the on-going consent and cooperation of the public. When that relationship of trust is fractured, the real criminals can step in and exploit the gap. This is part of what has happened in London.
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Wow_Factor: Here is someone who knows what he is talking about:
He is right about the need for authority, but in my opinion, there must be both authority and a chance for people to prosper. There is neither. Human rights are misinterpreted and not supported with economic rights. Both have to be in balance, and strong state, police and authority of parents and teachers is needed. However, it should not swing into direction of the violence from authorities, which is also a possibility in the current situation.
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joyaepace: He is right about the need for authority, but in my opinion, there must be both authority and a chance for people to prosper. There is neither. Human rights are misinterpreted and not supported with economic rights. Both have to be in balance, and strong state, police and authority of parents and teachers is needed. However, it should not swing into direction of the violence from authorities, which is also a possibility in the current situation.
I'm doubtful the police can do a group hug and calm down the bums.
(JMHO) Even over here we're hearing that a lot of the kids are just joining in for the fun of it.
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bestbefore: Everyone has access to education in this country,it's whether they bother to turn up is the problem.You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot force it to drink. Just because they have no education, in your opinion,does NOT justify going on the rampage and destroying people's homes and businesses .
As for your comments about our police force,talk about give a dog a bad name. Tell me any country in the world today that hasn't got corruption in it's rank and file.
I would also add, tell me a country that isn't making cuts affecting it's people.We are not alone,so stop putting the boot in.
As for your comments about our police force,talk about give a dog a bad name. Tell me any country in the world today that hasn't got corruption in it's rank and file.
I would also add, tell me a country that isn't making cuts affecting it's people.We are not alone,so stop putting the boot in.
Despite some of the rhetoric surrounding these events, NOTHING justifies what we have seen of late.
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Class5: Despite some of the rhetoric surrounding these events, NOTHING justifies what we have seen of late.
Precisely my point. The wanton destruction of peoples homes and businesses has nothing to do with greivances,in my opinion, just deliberate destruction for the sake of it.
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Class5: Despite some of the rhetoric surrounding these events, NOTHING justifies what we have seen of late.
It does not need to be justified, but explained and lessons learned.
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joyaepace: It does not need to be justified, but explained and lessons learned.
Tell that to the ordinary people of these boroughs that were put in fear of their lives trapped in burning buildings,and when shouting for help were told to F--- off by the mob.
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joyaepace: It does not need to be justified, but explained and lessons learned.
Well, explanations will depend on political affiliations. The lesson will possibly be tighter restrictions on public assemblies.
In the current economic climate there are no quick solutions to socio-economic problems and inciting division from within, only serves those with a political agenda.
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Class5: Well, explanations will depend on political affiliations. The lesson will possibly be tighter restrictions on public assemblies.
In the current economic climate there are no quick solutions to socio-economic problems and inciting division from within, only serves those with a political agenda.
In the current economic climate there are no quick solutions to socio-economic problems and inciting division from within, only serves those with a political agenda.
Everyone has political agenda. What agenda do you mean?
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joyaepace: Everyone has political agenda. What agenda do you mean?
Apportioning blame by one group against another for any current socio-economic issue is a political tactic employed by those wishing to exploit a group's grievances in order to further political careers. The history of democracy is littered with such demagogues all the way back to Ancient Attica.
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bestbefore: Tell that to the ordinary people of these boroughs that were put in fear of their lives trapped in burning buildings,and when shouting for help were told to F--- off by the mob.
This is most sad that the ordinary people and small business owners are the ones who suffer most. And they will suffer even more, because the riots will spring up again. Very easy way is to condemn for politicians, but the deep cause of problem - the huge inequality and thus the growth of underclass without hope and without knowledge for better is not addressed. What is the point, you condemn, condemn, condemn, put some in jail, they come out even worse and do the same.
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Class5: Apportioning blame by one group against another for any current socio-economic issue is a political tactic employed by those wishing to exploit a group's grievances in order to further political careers. The history of democracy is littered with such demagogues all the way back to Ancient Attica.
Sure, but it does not mean that those blamed are innocent. If you have to blame someone, then blame those who created that huge inequality and as a result, a class of people who are so uncivilized that they don't know what they are doing. You can blame them, but it is not helpful, because they are not fit to be responsible. Well, you can jail them, but they will be still useless and a huge cost to society. I think inequality puts a cost to society and must be addressed, but who is going to do it?
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joyaepace: Sure, but it does not mean that those blamed are innocent. If you have to blame someone, then blame those who created that huge inequality and as a result, a class of people who are so uncivilized that they don't know what they are doing. You can blame them, but it is not helpful, because they are not fit to be responsible. Well, you can jail them, but they will be still useless and a huge cost to society. I think inequality puts a cost to society and must be addressed, but who is going to do it?
Well, the global financial system is responsible for the GFC. Governments have become a convenient focus for the anger, and in some instances, economic mismanagement by government policy makers is partially to blame.
Furthermore, I don't believe that the government is solely responsible for creating "a class of people who are so uncivilised that they don't know what they are doing" - there are many social factors beyond governmental control that contribute to this situation, if indeed, it's true at all.
To your final point, the inequality you mention has been continually addressed by Fabian Socialists since the end of WWI. We now live in a period where this 'gulf' has never been so narrow. We, in the west, have little inkling of the true hardships suffered by our forebears. Who will do it? It's up to us using our ballot and by changing parties form within the membership.
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Class5: Well, the global financial system is responsible for the GFC. Governments have become a convenient focus for the anger, and in some instances, economic mismanagement by government policy makers is partially to blame.
Furthermore, I don't believe that the government is solely responsible for creating "a class of people who are so uncivilised that they don't know what they are doing" - there are many social factors beyond governmental control that contribute to this situation, if indeed, it's true at all.
To your final point, the inequality you mention has been continually addressed by Fabian Socialists since the end of WWI. We now live in a period where this 'gulf' has never been so narrow. We, in the west, have little inkling of the true hardships suffered by our forebears. Who will do it? It's up to us using our ballot and by changing parties form within the membership.
Furthermore, I don't believe that the government is solely responsible for creating "a class of people who are so uncivilised that they don't know what they are doing" - there are many social factors beyond governmental control that contribute to this situation, if indeed, it's true at all.
To your final point, the inequality you mention has been continually addressed by Fabian Socialists since the end of WWI. We now live in a period where this 'gulf' has never been so narrow. We, in the west, have little inkling of the true hardships suffered by our forebears. Who will do it? It's up to us using our ballot and by changing parties form within the membership.
Inequality 'gulf' has widened greatly in recent 30 or so years, especially in UK and USA,there are enough stats of that. And it is not the absolute welfare that we are concerned about, but how we are faring against the others, and we are not doing well. There are these few that are extremely well off, but most of us are struggling and it is not right. And there is no hope we will do better with the same people governing us, just in turns. What we are voting for? Just approved candidates, approved by their sponsors. And what is the point blaming global financial system - it would act as it is in their interest and it is failure of governments to let it do so. I think that the capitalist system is in deep crisis and who knows what to do. I am afraid that riots and civil unrests will be a common thing until people will find ways to organize societies better, if it is possible at all.
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joyaepace: Inequality 'gulf' has widened greatly in recent 30 or so years, especially in UK and USA,there are enough stats of that. And it is not the absolute welfare that we are concerned about, but how we are faring against the others, and we are not doing well. There are these few that are extremely well off, but most of us are struggling and it is not right. And there is no hope we will do better with the same people governing us, just in turns. What we are voting for? Just approved candidates, approved by their sponsors. And what is the point blaming global financial system - it would act as it is in their interest and it is failure of governments to let it do so. I think that the capitalist system is in deep crisis and who knows what to do. I am afraid that riots and civil unrests will be a common thing until people will find ways to organize societies better, if it is possible at all.
Statistical manipulation of these figures belies the truth. The middle to lower classes are better off than 30 years ago-that is undeniable. The gulf means that corporations are making larger profits, not that the standard of living is falling (it is actually rising). When were we not struggling? My parents struggled and so did theirs.
Then again, I worked for own education and I work three jobs to maintain my personal standard of living without surplus cash for savings-but I'm a 'glass half full' person I suppose.
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This isn't helped by a few on the fringe of the anti-cuts movement describing these outbreaks of criminality as if they represented some form of 'resistance'. This contributes to a perception that criminal damage is an acceptable form of political participation, even though, in this case, it is more of a diabolical form of entertainment. While individuals are ultimately responsible for their own actions, it would be prudent if some commentators were a little more careful about what they encouraged young people to do.
The Metropolitan police, and some senior officers especially, also bear some responsibility. They have an unfortunate habit of attempting to cover up serious errors, especially when these have led to the deaths of civilians. In Brixton, for example, Smiley Culture, a local celebrity and Reggae star, died during a police raid on his home this year. For many locals, this death has not been satisfactorily explained and remains highly suspicious. More recently, we have seen senior police officers resign over the News International hacking scandal. The police have been too close to and too keen to protect powerful actors, especially in the media, for a number of years. They have used these connections to spin media events involving the police. This means that even when the Met engages in lawful killing (of an armed suspect, for example), many ordinary citizens are unsure whether to trust the police's account. They are the boys that cried wolf too many times.