Prove to me.... ( Archived) (622)

Well just pointing out that you seem to be implying that you "resolved" the contradiction. Tee hee. Generally in a debate setting, it does go back and forth until someone forfeits. Right now the next post would be due from you.

Oh Mike stop being so melodramatic. I merely pointed out that the bible claims Jesus is both god and man! I dont care if you "forfeit."

"The orthodox doctrine is logically impossible. As Huston Smith, scholar of comparative religion, points out, it would not have been logically impossible if the creed said that Jesus was somewhat divine and somewhat human. But this is expressly what the creed denies. For orthodox Christians, Jesus cannot possess only some human qualities; he must possess all. He must be fully human. At the same time, he cannot possess only some divine qualities; he must have all. He must be fully divine. This is impossible because to be fully divine means one has to be free of human limitations. If he has only one human limitation then he is not God. But according to creed he has every human limitation. How, then, can he be God? Huston Smith calls this a blatant contradiction. In his book The World’s Religions, he writes:

We may begin with the doctrine of the Incarnation, which took several centuries to fix into place. Holding as it does that in Christ God assumed a human body, it affirms that Christ was God-Man; simultaneously both fully God and fully man. To say that such a contention is paradoxical seems a charitable way to put the matter — it looks more like a blatant contradiction. If the doctrine held that Christ was half human and half divine, or that he was divine in certain respects, while being human in others, our minds would not balk. (The World’s Religions, p. 340).

If it was said that Jesus was partly human and partly divine that would not be logically impossible but only scripturally impossible. The Bible nowhere teaches that Jesus was divine in any way. Furthermore, if he was only partly divine then he was not the One True God of the Old and New Testaments. God is All-Powerful, not somewhat all-powerful; God is All-Knowing, not somewhat all-knowing.

That "stoop to their level" comment was rude. I dont think that was called for at tall.

Krimsa,
I'm just dropping in for a few mins here. There was an avowed atheist named George Rodonaia who had a NDE and came back to tell it after 3 days of being dead. He was clinically dead for all purposes but here is only a brief of his story. Look at or just google his name in.

BTW, when all bodily functions including brain stem functions cease to exist, the body immediately starts decomposing. It starts slowing cooling and rigor mortis sets in fairly soon. So putting someone in the refrigerated morgue after complete clinical death to slow down the decomposition(until burial and open wakes are done) and them coming back to life with a NDE to talk about is truly beyond medical science understanding. Too many ND experiences relate the same type of story but these people do not know each other. Now I'm not so sure that is explainable to science when these people do not know each other.
I believe that our body is on loan to us by God but that spirit or soul part of God is put into each and every one of us. Perhaps that would explain people coming back to tell of the God experience or the part MikeHD spoke of about Jesus as God in the body of man.

Dr. Rodonaia underwent one of the most extended cases of a “clinical near death experience” ever recorded. Pronounced dead immediately after he was hit by a car in 1976, he was left for three days in a morgue. He did not “return to life” until a doctor began to make an incision in his abdomen as part of an autopsy.

Another notable feature of Dr. Rodonaia’s near death experience – and this is common to many – is that he was radically transformed by it. Prior to his near death experience, he worked as a neuropathologist. He was also an avowed atheist. Yet after the experience, he devoted himself exclusively to studying the psychology of religion. He then became an ordained priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Today he serves as an associate pastor at the First united Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.

“The first thing I remember about my near death experience is that I discovered myself in a realm of total darkness. I had no physical pain; I was still somehow aware of my existence as George, and all about me there was darkness, utter and complete darkness – the greatest darkness ever, darker than any dark, blacker than any black. This was what surrounded me and pressed upon me. I was horrified! I wasn’t prepared for this at all. I was shocked to find that I still existed, but I didn’t know where I was. The one thought that kept rolling through my mind was, ‘How can I be when I’m not?’ That is what troubled me.

Slowly, I got a grip on myself and began to think about what had happened, what was going on. But nothing refreshing or relaxing came to me. Why am I in this darkness? What am I to do? Then I remembered Descartes famous line: ‘I think, therefore, I am.’ And that took a huge burden off me, for it was then I knew for certain I was still alive, although obviously in a very different dimension. Then I thought, ‘If I am, why shouldn’t I be positive?’ That is what came to me. I am George and I’m in darkness, but I know I am. I am what I am. I must not be negative.

Then I thought, ‘How can I define what is positive in darkness?’ Well, positive is light. Then, suddenly, I was in light; bright, white, shinny and strong; a very bright light. It was like the flash of a camera, but not flickering – that bright. Constant brightness. At first I found the brilliance of the light painful. I couldn’t look directly at it. But little by little, I began to feel safe and warm, and everything suddenly seemed fine.

pg 1

The next thing that happened was that I saw all these molecules flying around, atoms, protons, neutrons, just flying everywhere. On the one hand, it was totally chaotic, yet what brought me such great joy was that this chaos also had its own symmetry. This symmetry was beautiful and unified and whole, and it flooded me with tremendous joy. I saw the universal form of life and nature laid out before my eyes. It was at this point that any concern I had for my body just slipped away, because it was clear to me that I didn’t need it anymore -- that it was actually a limitation.

Everything in this experience merged together, so it is difficult for me to put an exact sequence to events. Time as I had known it came to a halt; past, present and future were somehow fused together for me in the timeless unity of life.

At some point, I underwent what has been called the “life-review process,” for I saw my life from beginning to end all at once. I participated in the real life dramas of my life, almost like a holographic image of my life going on before me – no sense of past, present or future, just now and the reality of my life. It wasn’t as though it started with birth and ran along to my life at the University of Moscow. It all appeared at once. There I was. This was my life. I didn’t experience any sense of guilt or remorse for things I’d done. I didn’t feel one way or another about my failures, faults or achievements. All I felt was my life for what it is. And I was content with that. I accepted my life for what it is.

During this time, the light just radiated a sense of peace and joy to me. It was very positive. I was so happy to be in the light. And I understood what the light meant. I learned that all the physical rules for human life were nothing when compared to this universal reality. I also came to see that a black hole is only another part of that infinity which is light. I came to see that reality is everywhere. This is not simply the earthly life but the infinite life. Everything is not only connected together, everything is also one. So I felt a wholeness with the light, a sense that all is right with me and the universe.

So there I was, flooded with all these good things and this wonderful experience, when someone begins to cut into my stomach. Can you imagine? What had happened was that I was taken to the morgue. I was pronounced dead and left there for three days. An investigation into the cause of my death was set up, so they sent someone out to do an autopsy on me. As they began to cut into my stomach, I felt as though some great power took hold of my neck and pushed me down. And it was so powerful that I opened my eyes and had this huge sense of pain. My body was cold and I began to shiver. They immediately stopped the autopsy and took me to the hospital where I remained for the following nine months, most of which I spent under a respirator.

Slowly, I regained my health. But I would never be the same again, because all I wanted to do for the rest of my life was study wisdom. This new interest led me to attend the University of Georgia where I took my second Ph.D., in the psychology of religion. Then I became a priest in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Eventually, in 1989, we came to America and I am now working as an associate pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Nederland, Texas.


pg 2

Anyone who has had such an experience of God, who has felt such a profound sense of connection with the reality, knows that there is only one truly significant work to do in life and that is love; to love nature, to love people, to love animals, to love creation itself, just because it is. To serve God’s creation with a warm and loving hand of generosity and compassion – that is the only meaningful existence.

Many people turn to those who have had near death experiences because they sense we have the answers. But I know this is not true, at least no entirely. None of us will fully fathom the great truths of life until we finally unite with eternity at death. But in the meantime, it is our very nature to seek answers to our deepest questions about the near death experience and immortality.

pg 3

Thanks I have actually read that account before though. What I wanted to see was that older woman you were talking about and if her circumstances were new in some respect.

Also, did you catch my latest question to you? I asked why if as you seem to feel there is actual evidence that these resuscitations are supernatural in nature and absolutely beyond a shadow of a doubt prove the existence of some sort of god, do we still have Atheists and Agnostics roaming the planet? If there was no question about this (which you implied) wouldn’t they all immediately convert to some religion?