Prove to me.... (622)
Krimsa,
I've had several experiences of my own that I'll share with everyone that leave me no doubt that there is a God who has performed supernatural events in my life that defy anything I or anyone can explain. From finding pennies consistently when there is something medical I need to urgently follow up on,(friends have seen this) to my cats coming up to me and rubbing on my ovaries as I silently prayed not to have ovarian cancer(which I didn't but it was very probable due to a genetic mutation I carry)to having the excruciating pain of 6 herniated discs simultaneously suddenly subside as I poured out my heart to God to ask for healing and I promised to do whatever he/she requested me in life to do from thereon. If you've ever had 1 herniated disc, you can well imagine that 6x over. Only morphine and toradol shots together releived the pain in the ER. This sudden cessation of pain did not occur with drugs though. I healed from the hernias very quickly after that but do still have back, joint and spinal alignment problems with pain. Just not living with excruciating unbearable pain anymore. Am back to work.
From a personal standpoint, I cannot doubt my experiences nor can anyone substantiate why these events happened. I have to believe that God heard me and knew that I was sincere in my requesst. I am very different today than what I was way on back before these events happened. One does not have to find the proof of God's existence in a bible Krimsa, only in the experience's in one's own life. Perhaps that is the message of what people are trying to tell of in NDE's. Some see and experience God in different ways.
There will be one time or more when a supernatural experience will happen to you personally Krimsa where you cannot come up with an explanation. It is then that you may acknowledge God's existence and power and whom is really in control.
I've had several experiences of my own that I'll share with everyone that leave me no doubt that there is a God who has performed supernatural events in my life that defy anything I or anyone can explain. From finding pennies consistently when there is something medical I need to urgently follow up on,(friends have seen this) to my cats coming up to me and rubbing on my ovaries as I silently prayed not to have ovarian cancer(which I didn't but it was very probable due to a genetic mutation I carry)to having the excruciating pain of 6 herniated discs simultaneously suddenly subside as I poured out my heart to God to ask for healing and I promised to do whatever he/she requested me in life to do from thereon. If you've ever had 1 herniated disc, you can well imagine that 6x over. Only morphine and toradol shots together releived the pain in the ER. This sudden cessation of pain did not occur with drugs though. I healed from the hernias very quickly after that but do still have back, joint and spinal alignment problems with pain. Just not living with excruciating unbearable pain anymore. Am back to work.
From a personal standpoint, I cannot doubt my experiences nor can anyone substantiate why these events happened. I have to believe that God heard me and knew that I was sincere in my requesst. I am very different today than what I was way on back before these events happened. One does not have to find the proof of God's existence in a bible Krimsa, only in the experience's in one's own life. Perhaps that is the message of what people are trying to tell of in NDE's. Some see and experience God in different ways.
There will be one time or more when a supernatural experience will happen to you personally Krimsa where you cannot come up with an explanation. It is then that you may acknowledge God's existence and power and whom is really in control.
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In response to: There will be one time or more when a supernatural experience will happen to you personally Krimsa where you cannot come up with an explanation. It is then that you may acknowledge God's existence and power and whom is really in control.
How would you know? You have know way of knowing what my personal life experience entails. I guess you didn’t notice Conrad's article? What about mine? Also, how would a near death experience necessarily substantiate the existence of the god of Abraham (or any god?)
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What????
I just noticed this statment made by you.
You do realize that Wiccans are Polytheistic and follow an earth based spiritually??? They generally observe a God and a Goddess together.
I just noticed this statment made by you.
In response to: I've met a Wiccan once, she was my coworker. Beyond that, I have never personally met an atheist.
You do realize that Wiccans are Polytheistic and follow an earth based spiritually??? They generally observe a God and a Goddess together.
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krimsa: How would you know? You have know way of knowing what my personal life experience entails. I guess you didn’t notice Conrad's article? What about mine? Also, how would a near death experience necessarily substantiate the existence of the god of Abraham (or any god?)
You ask how I would know? The answer is that if you had experienced a supernatural experiences like an NDE and told us of what had happened, you would not be searching the bibles for proof of the non existence of God. You would be searching to find out what caused these supernatural occurances to you personally. Perhaps you may be thinking, "There may be something to this God experience afterall."
BTW, I am aware that the Wiccans believe in deities or Gods. I did acknowledge it in my previous posting that they have a god(s), more the gods of nature though.
I won't comment on Conrad's article.
Your article here could only lead me to believe that the skeptic believes everytime a doctor brings back a clinically dead person to life or a clinically dead person comes back on their own, it means that the doc was always wrong that the person was clinically dead in the first place? No, I don't buy into that thinking that the doc always has to be wrong when announcing clinical death. When there is a cessation of vital signs and brain stem function...that is death and I agree. But when a person comes back from that death state and can tell you what occurred in that interim, that is where divine intervention comes in to play in spite of clinical death. A skeptic cannot explain that part, neither can the states Uniform Determination of Death Act.(UDDA)
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I have no comments on Conrad's article on Baptism as my faith does not do this so I am not qualified to discuss the pros or cons or anything on it. That would be for someone else to discuss on the validity of this practice or any comments pertaining to it.
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every occurance can be explained with the laws of nature,so...?
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rodolpho: every occurance can be explained with the laws of nature,so...?
So where do the laws of nature come from? Certainly they are not man made, eh?
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In response to: You ask how I would know? The answer is that if you had experienced a supernatural experiences like an NDE and told us of what had happened, you would not be searching the bibles for proof of the non existence of God.
So in other words, you are making the claim right now that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but NOT come away with it in a belief in your god of Abraham specifically, has not really had a NDE? I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. So if a Muslim had a NDE and saw Allah, or a Wiccan had a NDE and witnessed the Goddess and God together, those would be false? Only the NDE that substantiate the premise behind the Christian interpretation of godhead is to be considered legitimate?
In response to: You would be searching to find out what caused these supernatural occurances to you personally.
Yes but haven’t we listed some of the physiological causes? Don’t you need to weigh the two against one another before you throw your hands up in the air and claim it had to be god, and more specifically your god?
In response to: Perhaps you may be thinking, "There may be something to this God experience afterall."
And you are basing this on?
In response to: BTW, I am aware that the Wiccans believe in deities or Gods. I did acknowledge it in my previous posting that they have a god(s), more the gods of nature though.
Then WHY did you refer to them as Atheists? Is that only because you are so unabashedly arrogant that anyone with a belief other than in your same god is an atheist?
In response to: I won't comment on Conrad's article.
Why not? We have responded to your articles.
In response to: Your article here could only lead me to believe that the skeptic believes everytime a doctor brings back a clinically dead person to life or a clinically dead person comes back on their own, it means that the doc was always wrong
What?? The skeptics are agreeing with the doctors and their physiological explanations. Did you bother to read?
In response to: When there is a cessation of vital signs and brain stem function
I posted this before but you ignored it.
"Certain surgeries for cerebral aneurysms or aortic arch defects require that blood circulation be stopped while repairs are performed. This deliberate temporary induction of clinical death is called circulatory arrest. It is typically performed by lowering body temperature to +18°C (+64°F), stopping the heart, stopping the brain with drugs to conserve energy, turning off the heart lung machine, and draining blood to eliminate all blood pressure. At such low temperatures the clinically dead state can be sustained without serious brain injury for up to one hour. Longer durations are possible at lower temperatures, but the usefulness of longer procedures has not been established yet."
In response to: But when a person comes back from that death state and can tell you what occurred in that interim, that is where divine intervention comes in to play in spite of clinical death.
Even if we don’t know if the person was dead or not?
In response to: A skeptic cannot explain that part, neither can the states Uniform Determination of Death Act.
But nonetheless this does occur or are you claiming that EVERY NDE is entirely unexplainable and therefore legitimizes your own personal belief in a god? Why would there still be Atheists and Agnostics in that case?
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LILLYLADY: So where do the laws of nature come from? Certainly they are not man made, eh?
Why dont you ask a Wiccan?(or as you seem to feel an Atheist).
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LILLYLADY: I have no comments on Conrad's article on Baptism as my faith does not do this so I am not qualified to discuss the pros or cons or anything on it. That would be for someone else to discuss on the validity of this practice or any comments pertaining to it.
Hmmm. That was not the point I don’t think. It was to further substantiate the fact that people are leaving the faith. They are doing so EVEN with all of your supposedly irrefutable "proof of the existence of a godhead." also.
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LILLYLADY: So where do the laws of nature come from? Certainly they are not man made, eh?
nope just read thru this thread and u will see I've proven god exists if you're willing to comprehend the definition,maybe I'll look the page up for you if you like.you didnt expect this one right
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krimsa:
That "stoop to their level" comment was rude. I dont think that was called for at tall.
That "stoop to their level" comment was rude. I dont think that was called for at tall.
I apologize for my comment Krimsa. I just do not see the need to fill these pages up with all this copying and pasting that will get us no where. I have neither the time, nor the energy to waste on doing so. I have played this game before, so I proposed to just go with a point/ counterpoint format, and let the people reading decide. I am not in this for you, or to feel good about myself. I post in here (at least now I do) for those who read these posts. The messages I get in my mailbox keep me coming back for more, but I refuse to just waste time posting and posting when we both start sounding ridiculous after the first round, and most of the readers have tuned us out. If you are posting to feel better about yourself, or to try and make yourself look clever to all the readers, you will have to accomplish this without my help. Let's just stick to you posting the contradiction, me explaining them, and you refuting my explanation. Beyond that it is just verbal diarrhea, and I believe we start to lose most of our viewership.
Let me know what you think.
Oh, and how many times have you been in a debate where the other side forfeited? I have been on many debate teams and never won a debate because the other team just "gave up". We had judges decided the winner. So let the viewers decide.
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In response to: I apologize for my comment Krimsa.
You don’t have to apologize to me.
In response to: I just do not see the need to fill these pages up with all this copying and pasting
I have not done very much of that. You have more so. All I have copy and pasted was a theologian to show you that I was not making this up out of my own head and it was substantiated.
In response to: I am not in this for you, or to feel good about myself.
I agree and if anything I think it is only stressing you out and making you feel upset. That was NEVER my intention nor do I want another re-play of the PH thread.
In response to: we both start sounding ridiculous
I never claimed that you sounded ridiculous. I only countered your faith based argument with facts.
In response to: after the first round, and most of the readers have tuned us out.
I was focused on the debate between us. That’s why there is a quote feature so people can identify who they are addressing.
In response to: or to try and make yourself look clever to all the readers,
Nope. I have never once done this. I am who I am.
In response to: Let's just stick to you posting the contradiction,
Well if you want to simply drop this one and go onto another, this time I suggest that you pick the one that you feel capable of addressing and that will this time give you a clear cut advantage. That’s only being fair.
In response to: Oh, and how many times have you been in a debate where the other side forfeited?
I have taken debate in college but it was not my major.
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There you go again Krimsa... tearing apart line after line looking for a fight by making up assumptions on something that has not been said by me at all. It is antagonistic in wording and not conducive to establishing a constructive dialogue. And there you go with 6 questions again. It is usually 1 or 2 lines and then you blow off some "off the wall" question. You must have some type of paragraph comprehension problem going on.
YOU SAID THIS: "So in other words, you are making the claim right now that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but NOT come away with it in a belief in your god of Abraham specifically, has not really had a NDE? I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. So if a Muslim had a NDE and saw Allah, or a Wiccan had a NDE and witnessed the Goddess and God together, those would be false? Only the NDE that substantiate the premise behind the Christian interpretation of godhead is to be considered legitimate?"
MY ANSWER: There is no place where I stated specifically and I do mean specifically, stated that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but not come away with it in a belief of my god of Abraham has not really had a NDE. FRANKLY, I HAVE NEVER MADE SUCH A STATEMENT AS THAT, AND THAT IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT TO EVEN MAKE. AND FURTHERMORE, I NEVER SAID ONCE ANYTHING WITH THE WORDING OF THE "GOD OF ABRAHAM" NOR ANYTHING ABOUT "CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION." IT IS YOU WHO CONTINUOUSLY BRING THAT WORDING UP.
I can now see why you get into so many fights with CSers. You twist and pull words out of context and try to make them into something else and then lay blame on someone else. And then you start popping out question after question and jump off a topic. And BTW, can you not read...read the entire paragraph(not just one liners) on what I wrote on Wiccans and another paragraph that I even clarified more about the Wiccans belief in their god deities, before you accuse me of saying they are atheists. It is you who are showing the full arrogance by pulling words out of context without finishing the entire paragraph.
Everytime I try to start a decent conversation with you and try to establish something concrete, you do the "Million Question March" on me. You do it to other CSers to when you continuously do not really want to have a dialogue because you are afraid someone may disprove you. No one has been able to establish anything before because of your inability or refusal to stick to even one thought on a topic, and stop your rambling from thought to thought as evidenced by the "question routine." Then when you get called on your rambling tactics, you start accusing others of arrogance. Well, the arrogance shoe fits you very well there.
To be honest with you, I'm not interested in the "Million Question March" and allowing you to continually ramble on with question after question when you don't read or comprehend what I or anyone posts in paragraphs. I have better things to do with my time. I am terminating my dialogue with you at this point.
I will concede though that you are the "Queen of
. You won hands down on that point. 
YOU SAID THIS: "So in other words, you are making the claim right now that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but NOT come away with it in a belief in your god of Abraham specifically, has not really had a NDE? I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. So if a Muslim had a NDE and saw Allah, or a Wiccan had a NDE and witnessed the Goddess and God together, those would be false? Only the NDE that substantiate the premise behind the Christian interpretation of godhead is to be considered legitimate?"
MY ANSWER: There is no place where I stated specifically and I do mean specifically, stated that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but not come away with it in a belief of my god of Abraham has not really had a NDE. FRANKLY, I HAVE NEVER MADE SUCH A STATEMENT AS THAT, AND THAT IS AN ABSURD STATEMENT TO EVEN MAKE. AND FURTHERMORE, I NEVER SAID ONCE ANYTHING WITH THE WORDING OF THE "GOD OF ABRAHAM" NOR ANYTHING ABOUT "CHRISTIAN INTERPRETATION." IT IS YOU WHO CONTINUOUSLY BRING THAT WORDING UP.
I can now see why you get into so many fights with CSers. You twist and pull words out of context and try to make them into something else and then lay blame on someone else. And then you start popping out question after question and jump off a topic. And BTW, can you not read...read the entire paragraph(not just one liners) on what I wrote on Wiccans and another paragraph that I even clarified more about the Wiccans belief in their god deities, before you accuse me of saying they are atheists. It is you who are showing the full arrogance by pulling words out of context without finishing the entire paragraph.
Everytime I try to start a decent conversation with you and try to establish something concrete, you do the "Million Question March" on me. You do it to other CSers to when you continuously do not really want to have a dialogue because you are afraid someone may disprove you. No one has been able to establish anything before because of your inability or refusal to stick to even one thought on a topic, and stop your rambling from thought to thought as evidenced by the "question routine." Then when you get called on your rambling tactics, you start accusing others of arrogance. Well, the arrogance shoe fits you very well there.
To be honest with you, I'm not interested in the "Million Question March" and allowing you to continually ramble on with question after question when you don't read or comprehend what I or anyone posts in paragraphs. I have better things to do with my time. I am terminating my dialogue with you at this point.
I will concede though that you are the "Queen of
. You won hands down on that point. ------ This thread is Archived ------
I'm not doubting God's existence Rodolpho as I like your definitions. You're right, I didn't expect this one.
Perhaps this question was more for Krimsa and I should not have said anything. She's better qualified to answer.
Perhaps this question was more for Krimsa and I should not have said anything. She's better qualified to answer.
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In response to: tearing apart line after line looking for a fight
I challenge you once again to quote me at any time that I have attacked you or baited you or picked a fight. I won’t even limit you to this thread but ANY forum.
In response to: And there you go with 6 questions again.
I asked the same question that was not answered previously...
Krimsa said: "So in other words, you are making the claim right now that everyone in the world who has had a NDE but NOT come away with it in a belief in your god of Abraham specifically, has not really had a NDE? I just want to make sure I am understanding you correctly. So if a Muslim had a NDE and saw Allah, or a Wiccan had a NDE and witnessed the Goddess and God together, those would be false? Only the NDE that substantiate the premise behind the Christian interpretation of godhead is to be considered legitimate?"
LILLYLADY said:You ask how I would know? The answer is that if you had experienced a supernatural experiences like an NDE and told us of what had happened, you would not be searching the bibles for proof of the non existence of God.
Evidently you are claiming here that since I am not in full agreement with you that NDE qualifies as irrefutable proof of a god, that I have never had a NDE myself....I will allow you to explain on your next post.
In response to: I can now see why you get into so many fights with CSers.
I get into debates with the likes of people like you who want to make baseless and unsubstantiated claims. I have made a ton of friends on this forum so I’m mot sure what that remark means nor do I care in all honesty. I told you I stand alone in my position. Some might agree but that is irrelevant to me.
In response to: You twist and pull words out of context
I just quoted you for a second time...
In response to: And then you start popping out question after question
I’m not sure what question I have asked you except “why are there still Atheists and Agnostics in the world if as you claim NDE is proof positive of a god.” You have been asked this question I think 4 times now.
In response to: And BTW, can you not read...read the entire paragraph(not just one liners) on what I wrote on Wiccans
LILLYLADY said:I've met a Wiccan once, she was my coworker. Beyond that, I have never personally met an atheist.
Another question. How would you know that you have never met an Atheist? Every time you meet someone do you ask about their religious affiliation?
In response to: Everytime I try to start a decent conversation with you and try to establish something concrete, you do the "Million Question March" on me.
I have asked ONE (1) question of you. You have failed to answer. Do you think the question will go away because on every post you refuse to answer? I will just ask it again. I feel it’s an important question and it is relevant to our debate here.
In response to: "question routine."
??? Okay do we need to set a rule that I am not allowed to ask questions? I don’t understand.
In response to: Then when you get called on your rambling tactics, you start accusing others of arrogance.
Please explain your comment about Wiccans and what you meant by the quoted statement above. That is what I was referring to as arrogance. You are implying that Wiccans are Atheists because they do not share the same beliefs as yourself. Shameful...
In response to: I am terminating my dialogue with you at this point.
That’s up to you and is your choice. I am sorry you feel so enraged and frustrated yet there is nothing I can do about that. You are responsible for how you conduct yourself.
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LILLYLADY: I'm not doubting God's existence Rodolpho as I like your definitions. You're right, I didn't expect this one.
Perhaps this question was more for Krimsa and I should not have said anything. She's better qualified to answer.
Perhaps this question was more for Krimsa and I should not have said anything. She's better qualified to answer.
I told you to go ask a Wiccan since according to you they are only Atheists...
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I second this last post by Lillylady. I was not willing to waste my brain chemistry writing what you have. Having said this, I know that there are more than Krimsa who are polarising these debates/discussions/random answers/threads - whatever. Unfortunately/fortunately, it always seems to be these religious threads that do it. I personally like hearing the way people think. As long as, they are willing to give that same wonder at hearing how someone else thinks. back and forth, back and forth. Not, forth, forth, forth.
I treat it all as good fun - then you get the stick-in-the-mud.
cheers, everyone
galaxy15
I treat it all as good fun - then you get the stick-in-the-mud.
cheers, everyone
galaxy15
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That's like saying 'prove that Smurfs don't exist.' You'll have to come up with something way more clever than that to be taken seriously by scholars. Anyway, I have it on good authority that the answer to life, the universe and everything is 42. Prove that it isn't.
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Within this portal, there are as many individual paths to God as there are individual fingerprints and no one can ever truly convince another of the reality of God. The only possible way anyone may be convinced without any doubt, is to go there and find out for themselves.
The journey within and then to God is the most exciting, wonderful and yes, sometimes terrifying journey we will ever take. It is a journey far more fascinating and exciting than any we may take in the physical realms, but once taken and once contact has been made with the Divine, the reality is undeniable.
It is not possible to debate the issue of whether God exists or not with the Richard Dawkins of this world, as we would merely have two talking heads engaging in a nonsensical exercise. We would have two left-brains discussing, what is for the left-brain an incomprehensible abstract. In addition, the path to the Divine is liberally strewn with paradoxes. The left-brain is uncomfortable with such devices. It is for this reason that many Eastern Religions have created devices such as Koans. Their express function is to remove the left-brain temporarily from the equation in order that some movement along the pathway to the Divine may be accomplished.
Paradoxes are enormous fun to work with and until one can come to understand paradoxes and accept their essential nature, the journey to the Divine will be difficult, if not impossible.
Taking our individual journey to the centre of The Divine Creative Field/God is the only possible way any of us can Know the reality of God. Once having been there it is not possible to deny the reality, and the left-brain then becomes acquiescent.
pg 2