Prove to me.... (622)
hornswoggled: The logic that says your mythology is false until proven true is the same logic that built your computer also keeps you innocent until proven guilty.
The burden of proof is always on the one making the claim or hypothesizing something, and that's yourself. You are the one saying something exists; those who refute it are not making any claims...
The burden of proof is always on the one making the claim or hypothesizing something, and that's yourself. You are the one saying something exists; those who refute it are not making any claims...
I feel like I'm beating a dead horse by pointing out again and again that yes, one can prove a negative, and, correlatively, that the essential difference between claims is not that they're "negative" or "positive" - every claim can be stated positively AND negatively - but rather, the "burden" of any claim rests with its credibility.Of course we - I included myself as one of those who believe that we do not bear the burden to demonstrate a god's non-existence - ARE making claims. We're claiming, among other things, that an all-powerful being does not exist, and that the universe does not require or depend on an all-powerful being for its existence.
Why don't we bear a burden of proof for these assertions? Well, actually, we do. The difference between claims that god does and does not exist both require argumentation and evidence. If there were, for instance, logically/evidentially compelling reasons for believing that the universe requires a creator/overseer, then the burden would rest on atheists to dispute that.
Everything being equal, we share an equal burden to demonstrate the truth of something. However, things are rarely equal in terms of credibility. If someone claimed that a pack of kangaroo had taken up residence in South Dakota and were responsible for overturning local garbage cans, for instance, we would reasonably place the burden of proof for that claim on the kangaroo-believers, because their claim, in the context of current knowledge, is non-credible. Someone who claimed that the god Helios is responsible for the sun rising and falling would bear the burden of demonstrating his existence because of the mass of evidence that the Earth orbits the sun without any being's assistance.
Likewise, the burden for demonstrating god's existence rests on those advocating it because their claim is non-credible. Non-believers would prefer a simpler and more axiomatic refutation of this kind of claim - e.g., "you can't prove a negative!" - but unfortunately there exists no shortcut for establishing the relative credibility of the atheist claims versus the religious ones, aside from the logical arguments and evidence that support one claim over the other.
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krimsa: The main point to this was that Jesus came to threaten what they held most dear.
I realize she was addressing Jesus Christ.
I was not.
I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat?
I was not referring to Jesus or the past in any way but if this was to occur today.
I realize she was addressing Jesus Christ.
I was not.
I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat?
I was not referring to Jesus or the past in any way but if this was to occur today.
You didn't specify how long someone should be dead for before they get raised Krimsa. I would believe you know for a fact that people that are clinically dead for periods of time have been resusitated. And even stranger things happen when people who have been clinically dead occassionally have come back to life, thus defying science. Also, how does one explain the Near Death Experience where people are clinically dead and go through the tunnel and see the light and describe the warmth, peace, colors and see an omnipotent being. I have known 2 people who had that experience. Their lives were changed forever after that. Maybe the article below is "That someone" who has already accomplished the feat of raising the dead.
Somewhere I just read something recently that a dog was put down and then revived back very successfully. Here is an example in 2007 of a clinically dead newborn brought back to life.
Tot born clinically dead is just fine
Monday, October 15, 2007
Mum Lucy Allen with little Oscar
A baby who was born clinically dead has made a full recovery.
Oscar Rose's mother had to have an emergency Caesarean after the baby's heart stopped beating in the womb.
Doctors spent eight minutes reviving him after his birth.
He then spent nine days in intensive care amid fears that he would be brain damaged.
Tests have given him the all clear and, five weeks on, he is at home in York with mother Lucy Allen, father Stephen Rose and stepsister Ella, 12.
There was also an article recently that made the news(think it was CNN) that a woman was clinically dead and in cold storage at a funeral home. Just before she was to get embalmed, someone noticed some signs of life in her and she made a full return to life. I did not save the article as I didn't figure I'd ever need to post it but it was interesting to read.
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I am just amazed why anyone has to prove anything to anyone!!
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krimsa: What? No. I am referring to this thread. I have posted several. Pick one.
I would not take you for someone to back down from a challenge. You have established no clear dispute for one distinct contradiction, just formless assertions that cannot be formatively discussed. I wonder if you are realizing your mistake in jumping into an arena where might not be as capable as you would like us to believe. I don’t want you to back out.
Pick a contradiction and we will play. Other wise I will bring you backing down and running scared up over and over again.
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rodolpho: I admire your perseverance(spell correct).But I was told once some people just don't want to hear the truth.My question for you is why does this discussion means so much to you?
an air of superiority! Nothing more!
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pretzelman: I am just amazed why anyone has to prove anything to anyone!!
This is a good post.
But I believe my ego gets the best of me. So allow myself to be sucked into discussions like this.
And I kinda enjoy them as well.
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In response to: You didn't specify how long someone should be dead for before they get raised Krimsa.
Well since clearly we know that a human (if you are referring to a human here) can be resuscitated some time later and without brain damage. Especially if the person has been frozen as sometimes occurs when falling through thin ice. If an animal or human was raised from the dead after several days, I would declare that significant evidence. I would require that it break any current standing records.
In response to: thus defying science.
As explained, that does not defy medical science necessarily.
In response to: "That someone" who has already accomplished the feat of raising the dead.
It has not been accomplished based on the criteria I just listed above. Even if it had, who would take the credit for it? The Christians? The Muslims? The Wiccans? The Satanists? Every religious sect on the planet more than likely.
In response to: Doctors spent eight minutes reviving him after his birth.
I guess I don’t even need to respond.
In response to: that a woman was clinically dead and in cold storage at a funeral home.
See above post and also I would need to know how long she was in cold storage. Days?
In response to: I did not save the article as I didn't figure I'd ever need to post it but it was interesting to read.
Yes! By all means find the article.
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MikeHD: This is a good post. But I believe my ego gets the best of me. So allow myself to be sucked into discussions like this.
And I kinda enjoy them as well.
And I kinda enjoy them as well.
So were you going to find a contradiction or just "let it ride" so to speak?
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In response to: I would not take you for someone to back down from a challenge.
Nope.
In response to: You have established no clear dispute for one distinct contradiction,
Yes, because you have not addressed one yet.
In response to: I don’t want you to back out.
I have asked you to address only 1 (ONE) contradiction that I have brought forth on this forum and you have refused to do so. How is that "me backing out?" exactly?
In response to: Pick a contradiction and we will play.
Why do I need to pick the contradiction? They were already addressed to you on the thread. Wouldn’t it be to your advantage to pick the one that you feel most comfortable addressing?
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krimsa: So were you going to find a contradiction or just "let it ride" so to speak?
The Great Krimsa backed down. This is a sad day for me.
You clearly read my post above (not the one you so conviently used here, which was not addressed to you, but the one that are trying to convince everyone you did not read). I seems that you realized you were out of your leage here, and you choose the
way out.I will give you one more chance, but if you don't want to back down again, you don't have to say anything. I will take it as backing down.
I am looking forward to hearing your comeback.
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krimsa: Nope.
Yes, because you have not addressed one yet.
I have asked you to address only 1 (ONE) contradiction that I have brought forth on this forum and you have refused to do so. How is that "me backing out?" exactly?
Why do I need to pick the contradiction? They were already addressed to you on the thread. Wouldn’t it be to your advantage to pick the one that you feel most comfortable addressing?
Yes, because you have not addressed one yet.
I have asked you to address only 1 (ONE) contradiction that I have brought forth on this forum and you have refused to do so. How is that "me backing out?" exactly?
Why do I need to pick the contradiction? They were already addressed to you on the thread. Wouldn’t it be to your advantage to pick the one that you feel most comfortable addressing?
I have not picked because you have not given one to pick. State contradiction and reference, not just general statements from your misunderstandings. Or maybe you should quit hidding your obviously poor attempt to save face here.
If you have a contradiction, state it. Other wise, I win.
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In response to: The Great Krimsa backed down. This is a sad day for me.
How is me requiring that you find the contradiction you want to address "me backing down"? Doesn’t that give you the clear advantage?
In response to: You clearly read my post above (not the one you so conviently used here, which was not addressed to you, but the one that are trying to convince everyone you did not read).
What? What are you talking about?
In response to: I seems that you realized you were out of your leage here, and you choose the way out.I will give you one more chance, but if you don't want to back down again, you don't have to say anything. I will take it as backing down.I am looking forward to hearing your comeback.
My "comeback" is "Mike, please pull out ANY contradiction that I have posted on either this thread, or this forum. You can take your pick of ANY. I am doing this in order to give you the clear advantage.”
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In response to: I have not picked because you have not given one to pick. State contradiction and reference, not just general statements from your misunderstandings. Or maybe you should quit hidding your obviously poor attempt to save face here.
If you have a contradiction, state it. Other wise, I win.
If you have a contradiction, state it. Other wise, I win.
Alright then. I will pull the contradiction concerning "Jesus being god" Address that one.
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Thank you for clarifying that you mean several days although several days is still not a very specific number. I am speaking of people being revived who are clinically dead in every sense of the word Krimsa. Your ownly criteria you listed is falling through the ice. Yes, people have been revived from the low temps that keep them in a suspended animation of sorts. That I'm not doubting. People are put into a sort of suspended animation to do heart repairs or even heart transplants.
But a person such as that baby who was born into this world totally clinically dead is something different Krimsa, whether it be minutes, hours or days is not the point. The point is that it is scientific proven clinical death that is being reversed by man. That child was literally raised from the dead since it was born clinically dead. So yes, man can raise the dead. You yourself said the following:
I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat?{quote Krimsa}
I think the point being made regarding people being raised from the dead perhaps to some religious people may tie in with religious thought that man is made in the image(meaning not only in looks) of God and that God is in all of us. Since biblical writings speak of God giving life and taking life through human doings that he directs, one can infer that man is doing some of God's work in science in bringing the dead back to life. Perhaps God to others is an omnipresent deity or life force that does feats through humans. People might call God Jesus, Budda, Allah.
In a different way of thinking, I must tell you that the first time I saw a human baby being born via cesaerian section and suddenly start breathing on it's own and crying, I was literally breathless in awe.(most parents will think the same about seeing their child being born) I couldn't stop thinking what it is that breathes the life into a living being and enables them to develop and think on their own. Where does that spark of life come from? It's one thing to develop a clone in a test tube but when that clone comes to life and is able to think and reason in time...I can't help but to believe there is something beyond the realm of medical science at hand there. Perhaps one of God's works that is taken for granted?
Surely you have wondered some of those thoughts when you see your animals being born?
Perhaps when I have some time, I will try to find the article on the lady who was dead and came back to life on her own. It defied medical science. I do believe there are things that medical science can not explain.
In answer to your questions, I believe that no one particular religion would claim the raising of the dead as their own. I believe they all would say that it is the work of God. You may have heard the term, "God works in mysterious ways" when there is something that defies medical science.
But a person such as that baby who was born into this world totally clinically dead is something different Krimsa, whether it be minutes, hours or days is not the point. The point is that it is scientific proven clinical death that is being reversed by man. That child was literally raised from the dead since it was born clinically dead. So yes, man can raise the dead. You yourself said the following:
I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat?{quote Krimsa}
I think the point being made regarding people being raised from the dead perhaps to some religious people may tie in with religious thought that man is made in the image(meaning not only in looks) of God and that God is in all of us. Since biblical writings speak of God giving life and taking life through human doings that he directs, one can infer that man is doing some of God's work in science in bringing the dead back to life. Perhaps God to others is an omnipresent deity or life force that does feats through humans. People might call God Jesus, Budda, Allah.
In a different way of thinking, I must tell you that the first time I saw a human baby being born via cesaerian section and suddenly start breathing on it's own and crying, I was literally breathless in awe.(most parents will think the same about seeing their child being born) I couldn't stop thinking what it is that breathes the life into a living being and enables them to develop and think on their own. Where does that spark of life come from? It's one thing to develop a clone in a test tube but when that clone comes to life and is able to think and reason in time...I can't help but to believe there is something beyond the realm of medical science at hand there. Perhaps one of God's works that is taken for granted?
Surely you have wondered some of those thoughts when you see your animals being born?Perhaps when I have some time, I will try to find the article on the lady who was dead and came back to life on her own. It defied medical science. I do believe there are things that medical science can not explain.
In answer to your questions, I believe that no one particular religion would claim the raising of the dead as their own. I believe they all would say that it is the work of God. You may have heard the term, "God works in mysterious ways" when there is something that defies medical science.
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krimsa: Alright then. I will pull the contradiction concerning "Jesus being god" Address that one.
Jesus is God?
What is that?
Why you continue to try to get out of this?
Don't you have one contradiction you can clearly state?
Give me the contradiction, which means two contradictory passages or verses, and their references. That is all I ask. Is it that hard?
Or do you really not have anything, and you're just throwing out your usual generalizations, misinterpretations, or just gratuitously misunderstood principles?
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In response to: Thank you for clarifying that you mean several days although several days is still not a very specific number.
How about this. Breaking any recorded medical records for length of time that someone was clinically dead. That would fall into the realm of "defying medical science" as you stated.
In response to: Your ownly criteria you listed is falling through the ice.
I listed that as a reason why someone can extend the period of time after being "clinically deceased" and still be resuscitated and in many cases even without incurring brain damage (though nerve damage and frost bite can also occur)
In response to: Yes, people have been revived from the low temps that keep them in a suspended animation of sorts.
Well sort of, basically what is occurring is the body’s need for oxygen can be reduced somewhat.
In response to: But a person such as that baby who was born into this world totally clinically dead is something different Krimsa,
I believe I had highlighted 8 minutes. They were able to revive that baby 8 minutes later which is not medically unexplainable. That’s not the same thing as several days at room temperature.
In response to: whether it be minutes, hours or days is not the point.
Yes it is actually. We are asking that something supernatural occur here. In order for it to qualify as such, it MUST defy medical science as you stated yourself.
In response to: The point is that it is scientific proven clinical death that is being reversed by man.
Yes a doctor, not Jesus.
In response to: I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof.
See above for clarification.
In response to: Surely you have wondered some of those thoughts when you see your animals being born?
Birth is amazing truly, yet it is not supernatural.
In response to: Perhaps when I have some time, I will try to find the article on the lady who was dead and came back to life on her own.
Yes find that because I want to know how many days before they resuscitated her had passed. She was also in cold storage so we will need to extend the time. It wasn’t like they found her decomposing in an apartment bedroom and THEN brought her back. Then, we would be getting somewhere and into the realm of supernatural and outside forces intervening in some respect.
In response to: I do believe there are things that medical science can not explain.
No doubt. That is why I am using the specific criteria that I noted.
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MikeHD: Jesus is God?
What is that?
Why you continue to try to get out of this?
Don't you have one contradiction you can clearly state?
Give me the contradiction, which means two contradictory passages or verses, and their references. That is all I ask. Is it that hard?Or do you really not have anything, and you're just throwing out your usual generalizations, misinterpretations, or just gratuitously misunderstood principles?
What is that?
Why you continue to try to get out of this?
Don't you have one contradiction you can clearly state?
Give me the contradiction, which means two contradictory passages or verses, and their references. That is all I ask. Is it that hard?Or do you really not have anything, and you're just throwing out your usual generalizations, misinterpretations, or just gratuitously misunderstood principles?
Mike this has already been outlined for you on TWO threads. It was brought up when we were discussing the parallels between Jesus and Buddha also.
Here it is again.
Is Jesus God?
YES
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NO
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
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krimsa: Mike this has already been outlined for you on TWO threads. It was brought up when we were discussing the parallels between Jesus and Buddha also.
Here it is again.
Is Jesus God?
YES
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NO
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Here it is again.
Is Jesus God?
YES
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NO
Matthew 19:17, Mark 10:18
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thank you, now this is something I can work with.
Be back with you in just a bit.
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MikeHD: Thank you, now this is something I can work with. Be back with you in just a bit.
Yet it was stated on this thread and on the other?? Okay I will await.
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I realize she was addressing Jesus Christ.
I was not.
I stated that IF today, someone was capable of raising either an animal or human from the dead, I would accept that as proof. But there are several variables involved. Proof of what? Which god? Would it be a human who is accomplishing this feat?
I was not referring to Jesus or the past in any way but if this was to occur today.
Then you will be easy pickings for the anti-christ.
"{I saw} one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed {and followed} after the beast;" Revelation 13:3