Questioning Christianity (146)
Bluefish22: I think a large part of Catholicism has been influenced by Templar beliefs, hidden agendas, power struggles, and secret keeping, and very little about God.
Yes, them too. However, only Constantine had the power to get the church to change God's holy days under penalty of death. The others have very definitely caused corruption of the original church of the first three centuries, but I believe that Constantine influenced it more than any other single force.
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LuvHurts51: Why must there be a burden of proof? Why can't we each allow others to believe what is right to them, and to change their opinions as they grow spiritually? In my opinion, Jesus knew. He did his best to tell us the truth.
You might need proof yourself, otherwise you have to have "faith" to believe. But with faith comes "doubt" which must be denied,,,
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Dadude62: You might need proof yourself, otherwise you have to have "faith" to believe. But with faith comes "doubt" which must be denied,,,
In my experience, increasing faith decreases doubt. I do have a great deal of faith, and to me, God is real and present, and I will be judged by His standards.
I'm headed to bed. I've enjoyed the discussions this evening. Thank you to everyone for participating.
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LuvHurts51: In my experience, increasing faith decreases doubt. I do have a great deal of faith, and to me, God is real and present, and I will be judged by His standards.
I'm headed to bed. I've enjoyed the discussions this evening. Thank you to everyone for participating.
I'm headed to bed. I've enjoyed the discussions this evening. Thank you to everyone for participating.
good night!
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LuvHurts51: Actually, the bible specifies that it should be sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. Jesus kept that Sabbath, and so did his disciples, even after his resurrection. It didn't change to Sunday until the 4th century when believers were forced to worship only on Sunday under penalty of death.
whatever ( I realize you are trying to explain but the 4th century is not important)
we begin sabbath on saturday evening - the jews hold more strictly to Friday - in the catholic church it is more for convenience on the weekend
except for the good friday which is acknowleged as friday evening - but again I see that as nitpicking rather than the knowledge of the teachings of the Christ
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LuvHurts51: Your original "burden of proof" statement was pertaining to whether there is an after life... a heaven or hell.
I understand what you are talking about, and I feel much the same way. Just for fun, let's consider Muslims. In my opinion, the Islamic religion is much worse when it comes to atrocities and dictating behaviors, and repression of women than Christianity in modern times. Do you see Islam becoming a major influence in the U.S. anytime soon?
I understand what you are talking about, and I feel much the same way. Just for fun, let's consider Muslims. In my opinion, the Islamic religion is much worse when it comes to atrocities and dictating behaviors, and repression of women than Christianity in modern times. Do you see Islam becoming a major influence in the U.S. anytime soon?
OK,,, let me include all the claims of religion,,,
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felixis99: many things that are known started as unknown in fact by definition they must
and yes, jesus was just like us - correct
and yes, jesus was just like us - correct
True, but then there are some things that can never be known. Like eternity, does it exist? Doesn't it? Are there any limits to it? Can we even call it "it" or anything?
What was there before the big bang? What is the universe expanding in? Is there an end to the universe? What is beyond that? Did God have a creator? If he did not, if she never began then how could he be? Where were we before we were conceived? Did we come from nothing? What is the life force? What is death? Where is "here"? And so forth,,,
Yes there is a mystery, and it's this mystery that religion has used to scare, intimidate, threaten, murder and delude mankind.
I don't think jesus knew anything more about the mystery than any of us.
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LuvHurts51: Your original "burden of proof" statement was pertaining to whether there is an after life... a heaven or hell.
I understand what you are talking about, and I feel much the same way. Just for fun, let's consider Muslims. In my opinion, the Islamic religion is much worse when it comes to atrocities and dictating behaviors, and repression of women than Christianity in modern times. Do you see Islam becoming a major influence in the U.S. anytime soon?
I understand what you are talking about, and I feel much the same way. Just for fun, let's consider Muslims. In my opinion, the Islamic religion is much worse when it comes to atrocities and dictating behaviors, and repression of women than Christianity in modern times. Do you see Islam becoming a major influence in the U.S. anytime soon?
As far as islam becoming a mayor influence in the US ? I hope not. It appears that islam is about the same as christianity was in the dark ages. And there are those forces in christianity that would like to bring us back there. I think that people waking up to the truth about religion is what makes things a bit better in the western world. There is a true spiritual awakening happening in spite of religion.
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felixis99: and who are you to judge?
To answer the OP - I am a Catholic Christian, but was raised in the Episcopal Church in a Quaker Community and attended a Baptist Youth Group in high school (in addition to my own church's group)
I am a follower if the words of Jesus in the New Testament - that;s it - except that I also am accepting of some eastern philosphy and buddhism - I definitely believe in the intention to cause no harm to others and the insignificance of the self
one of the strength's of catholicism is its ability to adapt to local customs and traditions in many countries so I see no conflict with adopting both buddhist & christian teaching. I am not a church person though
and I think luvhurts contradictions are normal in a person who is growing in faith. We must be thoughtful about what we accept and reject. There is some in Christianity that I do not necessarily accept if it is a teaching of man and not the direct words of Jesus
To answer the OP - I am a Catholic Christian, but was raised in the Episcopal Church in a Quaker Community and attended a Baptist Youth Group in high school (in addition to my own church's group)
I am a follower if the words of Jesus in the New Testament - that;s it - except that I also am accepting of some eastern philosphy and buddhism - I definitely believe in the intention to cause no harm to others and the insignificance of the self
one of the strength's of catholicism is its ability to adapt to local customs and traditions in many countries so I see no conflict with adopting both buddhist & christian teaching. I am not a church person though
and I think luvhurts contradictions are normal in a person who is growing in faith. We must be thoughtful about what we accept and reject. There is some in Christianity that I do not necessarily accept if it is a teaching of man and not the direct words of Jesus
Isn't judgment about giving a punishment? To argue and to criticize is not. But when I meet christians who sends me to hell for not being enough christian they judge me. I don't even believe in hell any more.
And for that blasphemic thought I am even more evil to them, and deserves an even tougher punishment in hell.
So what is christianity without hell or the devil?
The book of Genesis doesn't start with: "In the beginning God created heaven, hell and the earth."
We all need to separate the people from the problem. Then it would be a lot easier to have a good dialogue. In my world it's never about winning a debate. But if I have a big problem to understand something, then I don't want to be attacked personally. I just need answers on that issue.
But I understand it like this. If I critcize someones beliefs, I attack the Truth, and therefore also God. And if I'm attacking God, I attack the person who believes in God. Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it's how I interpret it.
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In response to: I have found that many people have a desire to question/criticize Christianity and/or the Judeo-Christian God. I am creating this thread as a totally open forum where ideas, opinions, criticisms, and other comments can be expressed. Since this is a topic which can be passionate and explosive, I will remind everyone to please be respectful of others no matter how different your beliefs. You CAN disagree without being disagreeable.
To sort of let you know where I personally come from, I guess the easy answer would be Karaite Messianic. I believe the bible (the whole thing, not just the New Testament), but I reject the traditions of men that have made the teachings of the bible burdensome and/or paganistic. I do not claim to be a nominal Christian or a Jew, and in fact, have major differences of opinion with both groups.
Shalom!
To sort of let you know where I personally come from, I guess the easy answer would be Karaite Messianic. I believe the bible (the whole thing, not just the New Testament), but I reject the traditions of men that have made the teachings of the bible burdensome and/or paganistic. I do not claim to be a nominal Christian or a Jew, and in fact, have major differences of opinion with both groups.
Shalom!
I don't have a opinion about it, except that one should try understand it instead of agreeing or disagreeing, and to stop attacking or defending. I can't say I do, perhaps some, and I take the rest on my own cloak instead of blaming the bible - because by denying or accepting it, I join one of the factions in the quarrel on God.
Not happy about people using it as pretense for any negative action, for or against.
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olaix: I don't have a opinion about it, except that one should try understand it instead of agreeing or disagreeing, and to stop attacking or defending. I can't say I do, perhaps some, and I take the rest on my own cloak instead of blaming the bible - because by denying or accepting it, I join one of the factions in the quarrel on God.
Not happy about people using it as pretense for any negative action, for or against.
Not happy about people using it as pretense for any negative action, for or against.
And how exciting is that from a scale from 1 to 10?
We have an intellect and we should use it to understand. But everyone is entitled to an opinion, wether we should use our mind or not in a religious debate.
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olaix: I don't have a opinion about it, except that one should try understand it instead of agreeing or disagreeing, and to stop attacking or defending. I can't say I do, perhaps some, and I take the rest on my own cloak instead of blaming the bible - because by denying or accepting it, I join one of the factions in the quarrel on God.
Not happy about people using it as pretense for any negative action, for or against.
Not happy about people using it as pretense for any negative action, for or against.
someone else has already created the thread. you are a contributor to it. to hence there has been no quarrel
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LuvHurts51: One reason that the day of the crucifixion matters is because it is the only proof that Jesus offered that he was the Messiah. Another reason is because it somehow is seen as support of the Sunday sunrise resurrection. The Sunday resurrection is the whole basis of the Catholic church changing the Sabbath day from Saturday to Sunday. Since we are commanded to keep God's appointed Sabbath, if we wish to obey God's commandments, it matters which day we observe. Hence, it all goes back to what day the crucifixion occurred and how that relates to the words of Christ.
Tell us more about this proof.
And why would the catholic church want to change this?
Why would a God "command" a sabbath?
And what will happen if I don't go along with that?
By the way, I did read Ellen White's book "The great controversy between christ and satan". Quite a realistic assessment of the catholic church, that I happen to agree with.
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Dadude62: True, but then there are some things that can never be known. Like eternity, does it exist? Doesn't it? Are there any limits to it? Can we even call it "it" or anything?
What was there before the big bang? What is the universe expanding in? Is there an end to the universe? What is beyond that? Did God have a creator? If he did not, if she never began then how could he be? Where were we before we were conceived? Did we come from nothing? What is the life force? What is death? Where is "here"? And so forth,,,
Yes there is a mystery, and it's this mystery that religion has used to scare, intimidate, threaten, murder and delude mankind.
I don't think jesus knew anything more about the mystery than any of us.
What was there before the big bang? What is the universe expanding in? Is there an end to the universe? What is beyond that? Did God have a creator? If he did not, if she never began then how could he be? Where were we before we were conceived? Did we come from nothing? What is the life force? What is death? Where is "here"? And so forth,,,
Yes there is a mystery, and it's this mystery that religion has used to scare, intimidate, threaten, murder and delude mankind.
I don't think jesus knew anything more about the mystery than any of us.
yup - not stuff I really care about - kinda of a whatever for me - I am very practical as a person and don't care much about things mystical - serves no purpose - in my opinion - that's just the kind of person I am
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felixis99: yup - not stuff I really care about - kinda of a whatever for me - I am very practical as a person and don't care much about things mystical - serves no purpose - in my opinion - that's just the kind of person I am
Whether you care about "things mystical" or not, the truth is, there is the "unknowable" or the "Mystery". If people were to acknowledge that instead of creating all kinds of myths about it, and claiming that they know for sure and forcing their "belief"on others, and condemning anyone who might be skeptical, then this might be a much more peaceful world.
I think Jesus drew his conclusions from knowing there is a "Mystery".
It was Albert Einstein who said, "The greatest thing we can perceive is the Mystery. It is the source of all true Art and Science, those who can not see the Mystery, are truly blind".
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Dadude62: Whether you care about "things mystical" or not, the truth is, there is the "unknowable" or the "Mystery". If people were to acknowledge that instead of creating all kinds of myths about it, and claiming that they know for sure and forcing their "belief"on others, and condemning anyone who might be skeptical, then this might be a much more peaceful world.
I think Jesus drew his conclusions from knowing there is a "Mystery".
It was Albert Einstein who said, "The greatest thing we can perceive is the Mystery. It is the source of all true Art and Science, those who can not see the Mystery, are truly blind".
I think Jesus drew his conclusions from knowing there is a "Mystery".
It was Albert Einstein who said, "The greatest thing we can perceive is the Mystery. It is the source of all true Art and Science, those who can not see the Mystery, are truly blind".
I think this Mystery,, is God.
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Dadude62: I think this Mystery,, is God.
No son,,
No immaculate conception,
No virgin birth,
No turning water into wine or wine into blood,
No miracle working,
No walking on water,
No raising from the dead,
No heaven or hell other then here on earth,
No need for a savior,,,,,
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And who better to question Christianity than Pat!!!...
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Dadude62: No son,,
No immaculate conception,
No virgin birth,
No turning water into wine or wine into blood,
No miracle working,
No walking on water,
No raising from the dead,
No heaven or hell other then here on earth,
No need for a savior,,,,,
No immaculate conception,
No virgin birth,
No turning water into wine or wine into blood,
No miracle working,
No walking on water,
No raising from the dead,
No heaven or hell other then here on earth,
No need for a savior,,,,,
Yep, I agree, I don't, can't deny that Jesus was recorded as being on earth, however I view him as being a great leader of Man, a Shaman, A Preacher, and no doubt popular with those of that time and indeed now.
Not so sure about not needing a savior tho....
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Actually, the bible specifies that it should be sundown Friday until sundown Saturday. Jesus kept that Sabbath, and so did his disciples, even after his resurrection. It didn't change to Sunday until the 4th century when believers were forced to worship only on Sunday under penalty of death.