John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
.....somewhere in the bible......god said:....a man who prays in front of a gold cross.....is no better then a man. who knells infront of a wooden cross....
jac379pontyclun, South Glamorgan, Wales UK12,293 posts
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
How did he establish that the relationship was proportional?
From this quote, it doesn't appear that he made any mention of whether the relationship was causal, or correlative, ergo his meaning is not clear enough to be able to agree, or disagree.
DedovixBig Place, Central Serbia Serbia5,492 posts
truheart1941: .....somewhere in the bible......god said:....a man who prays in front of a gold cross.....is no better then a man. who knells infront of a wooden cross....
I don`t remember coming across of that Maybe cause I never read the bible ...
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
Personally i do agree with the statement "the essence of religion". but history shows different - people moving out of the main religions faiths, the majority will end up in some "other" religion/church/interpretation... looking to be in the "riches", and "church membership in wealthier societies" is "expensive",as the majority of the people lives in a group/community...etc/etc.
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
Individualism is tied to wealth.
The common people tend towards in-groupisms of religion, race, nation, culture and class. They are more sociable in nature and their beliefs are felt by the group and experienced in reality.
The richer tend to have much more abstract, academic and aristocratic values. It is an impulse of the sophisticrats blood to be unique. To be separate from the rest.
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
Religion keeps people sane in adversity. With money, people enjoy their life and don't need the hope for the better afterlife because the current one is good enough.
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
There are many wealthy people who are faithful, kind, benevolent, caring, giving, all those ideals, so that statement is weak and stereotypical.
truheart1941: .....hi Jill....that is strange....I never made it up.....?????......
We see in the books of Moses that God basically stops talking to the common man and there is an announcement about this and ever more it is either a chosen mouth piece speaking for God or an Angelic messenger delivering instructions, but God never speaks directly after Moses. Any talking about crucifixes back then would have been met with 'wuz dat?' Because the Romans were still a long time a coming. The Egyptian Ankh symbol of the time was about Egypt's religion, not the one God of the Hebrews. Crosses and crucifixions on them were of course known of by the time the Old Testament ended, but there was no mention of crosses and worshiping before them in the Old book. In the New Testament of course Jesus became very familiar with the Cross, but he did not speak of worshipping in front of them.
Why would he? Such use of the cross as a symbol of faith was 100s of years after he died. The early Christians used fish as their recognition symbol.
Prior to 325 AD the cross was the recognition symbol of the worshippers of the Indian God Mithra. It is in the 4th Century the time of Constantine we first see Christians adapting the symbol.
Therefore you find nothing about praying in front of the cross in the New Testament either, because it was about the life of Jesus and the cross had no significance until he died on it. Praying to the cross was hundreds of years in the future.
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
Hi Ken, I think that education and having choices (especially women) is the most important factor in not following religious rules blindly.
Ken_19: We see in the books of Moses that God basically stops talking to the common man and there is an announcement about this and ever more it is either a chosen mouth piece speaking for God or an Angelic messenger delivering instructions, but God never speaks directly after Moses. Any talking about crucifixes back then would have been met with 'wuz dat?' Because the Romans were still a long time a coming. The Egyptian Ankh symbol of the time was about Egypt's religion, not the one God of the Hebrews. Crosses and crucifixions on them were of course known of by the time the Old Testament ended, but there was no mention of crosses and worshiping before them in the Old book. In the New Testament of course Jesus became very familiar with the Cross, but he did not speak of worshipping in front of them.
Why would he? Such use of the cross as a symbol of faith was 100s of years after he died. The early Christians used fish as their recognition symbol.
Prior to 325 AD the cross was the recognition symbol of the worshippers of the Indian God Mithra. It is in the 4th Century the time of Constantine we first see Christians adapting the symbol.
Therefore you find nothing about praying in front of the cross in the New Testament either, because it was about the life of Jesus and the cross had no significance until he died on it. Praying to the cross was hundreds of years in the future.
...thanks ken...for info......I did read it.....but from where....????one of lifes little puzzels...
KNenagh: Hi Ken, I think that education and having choices (especially women) is the most important factor in not following religious rules blindly.
I agree with you. I think Wesley was hampered by a religious education himself coupled with the low state of general knowledge back then. While I give him credit for a lot of things, not the least of which being an attempt to analyze why the center of the churches wasn't holding, I think he was too close to the problem to view it from our perspective.
What he was discussing back then in his treatise was how with the acquisition of material wealth people were suddenly acquiring and displaying jewelry (which was prohibited by church canon back then), excessive travel and socialization with the wrong people (i.e., non-church goers), merriment at taverns, etc.
Today however with archivists and computers and historians and 1,000 other things we have a better understanding of many things he knew nothing of. Indeed the average 7th grader although possibly not fluent in 3 or more languages nor bible knowledge, probably overall has a much better grasp of many things than Wesley did. Humanities accumulated knowledge doubles every year and has been doing so for almost 3 decades. Our newest textbooks leave the printers already obsolete and should be replaced and revised every year. Indeed some colleges are moving to Internet only classes because textbooks just can't keep up with some subjects. The consequences of a general increase in knowledge for religions are serious. The more they dig in their heels and insist on mysticism and things that go bump in the night, while at the same time the leaders engage in unethical behavior that is suddenly now transfixed in spotlights, the less credible the whole concept becomes. Religions provided a series of rules that allowed civilizations to form. Some religions did not allow that civilization to progress past certain points and those civilizations have either collapsed and only ruins are left where cities once were, or the civilization was permitted by the religion to continue to develop. We still have huge portions of the planet where religion still controls things while the general state knowledge and education of the populace is low. Wealth will come as the education increases, but of course the core concepts of the religion will increasingly come into question unless a reformation occurs. I think there can be little argument that the reformation of Martin Luther and Age of Reason both allowed the civilization to advance in new directions, while at the same time expanded the spread of knowledge. Of course wealth and a change in power bases also accompanied the new permissiveness. To me, blaming it all on wealth without looking at why and how the wealth came about is an over simplification that misses much.
joyaepace: Religion keeps people sane in adversity. With money, people enjoy their life and don't need the hope for the better afterlife because the current one is good enough.
I have no "money" and I enjoy my life BECAUSE God is in it. If that's your attitude, then you enjoy your little piece of heaven right here on this imperfect earth but when you die....where will your spirit live? In lightness, forever in the presence of the God you profess not to need....or darkness? Let me guess............
But what if the other side is not as you have been told?
What if there is no afterlife? Then you will have squandered so much in the hope and expectation of an afterlife that doesn't even exist.
Further, what if the afterlife, if such exists, is much more like a hostile jungle than palaces of light, with things that eat souls that glow bright to lure them in like Viperfish at the bottom of the ocean?
What if the afterlife is just a gray formless void and you have no body, just slowly fading memories until you go out..
Ken_19: John Wesley the founder of the Methodist Church wrote what has since become known as Wesley’s Law.
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?
Religion (not faith in God) is just another power base that exploits the poor and impoverished by giving them a false hope of freedom through religion.
True Christian faith is not founded in churches and the control that these foist on the uneducated.
Yes, wealth is a corruptor, but then when societies begin to prosper, they begin to see the control of Religion and those who steal their money for their own use and they see the hypocrisy of religion that builds grand buildings, while ignoring the starving and the poor.
Anyone can say "God bless you" but fail to act. Religion does just this. It preaches, without action.
Jesus was killed by the religious of his time because he opposed them and told them that what they did was wrong and not pleasing to God.
In fact, Jesus made this prophecy against the religious:
"When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!' Then I will say to them, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!'
So prosperity and religion are competitors, and religion hates education because it removes from the religious their control, power, and income source.....
ObscuritanMelbourne, Victoria Australia1,284 posts
truheart1941: .....somewhere in the bible......god said:....a man who prays in front of a gold cross.....is no better then a man. who knells infront of a wooden cross....
Maybe you're thinking of this story? 9 Jesus told this parable to certain people who had convinced themselves that they were righteous and who looked on everyone else with disgust: 10 "Two people went up to the temple to pray. One was a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed about himself with these words, ‘God, I thank you that I'm not like everyone else—crooks, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week. I give a tenth of everything I receive.' 13 But the tax collector stood at a distance. He wouldn't even lift his eyes to look toward heaven. Rather, he struck his chest and said, ‘God, show mercy to me, a sinner.' 14 I tell you, this person went down to his home justified rather than the Pharisee. All who lift themselves up will be brought low, and those who make themselves low will be lifted up."
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‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.(Vote Below)
‘Whenever riches have increased, the essence of religion has decreased in the same proportion.'
Given the comparison between poverty and the strength of religion in impoverished societies, compared to the decline in church membership in wealthier societies, do you agree or disagree or do you believe another reason is possible?